Bishop responds to Boy Scouts' decision on admission of homosexual members [CWN]

[dcs]

Even though this quote says that Thomas taught that abortion was always wrong he did not consider it a human life until 40 and 80 days. It is understandable that he would oppose contraception this it would prevent the formation of life.
He was in further error as the comment states in the last pararaph.

But it isn’t at all clear that he was in error on this subject. The Church does not have a definitive teaching about when ensoulment occurs.

“Certainly no experimental datum can be in itself sufficient to bring us to the recognition of a spiritual soul; nevertheless, the conclusions of science regarding the human embryo provide a valuable indication for discerning by the use of reason a personal presence at the moment of this first appearance of a human life: how could a human individual not be a human person? The Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature, but it constantly reaffirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured abortion. This teaching has not been changed and is unchangeable.” (Donum Vitae)

 

[fix]

This is what puzzles me. If the new policy basically reflects what has always been the case, then why the need for the new policy?

I agree that the written text of the new policy is in line with the Catechism. Yet, given the unyielding advocacy on the part of many in the gay rights movement who see the whole world in terms of gay rights, one has to wonder if in fact, things will just settle down. Does the BSA just go from an implicit policy of “don’t ask, don’t tell” to a policy of “ok to tell, but don’t talk about it any further?” I doubt that it will end there.

Perhaps “sexual orientation” will necessarily become a greater topic of awareness within the BSA. That would be a shame, given that BSA is not and ought not to be an organization about sexual awareness. Providing masculine role models is a good thing; affirming sexual disorder is not.

If there is no change no one would care. How many posts have there been about “gay” scouts being kicked out in the past? Several posts in fact. That is the justification that was used here to claim the new policy is just. To suddenly declare there is no change is a tad absurd.

 

[FAB]

This is a very interesting position. If there is no change then there would be no debate.I would think the bishops and others who have been commenting on this topic should be made aware of this non change.

What change is that the practice that had always been in scouting, to not descriminate on any basis including sexual orintation has been put formally in writing and is now open for discussion.
I have sat around many a campfire and sex and sexual orintation was never discussed. I suspect that the same will remain true.
I have nothing to fear from a scout who may or may not be gay. Niether do the boys that may be in the same troop with him. The gay scout is not somehow ging to make the other scouts gay.
Once again, being gay is not a sin, the church recongized that it may be how a person is. Acting upon the acts of homosexullity is a sin.

 

[FAB]

But it isn’t at all clear that he was in error on this subject. The Church does not have a definitive teaching about when ensoulment occurs.

“Certainly no experimental datum can be in itself sufficient to bring us to the recognition of a spiritual soul; nevertheless, the conclusions of science regarding the human embryo provide a valuable indication for discerning by the use of reason a personal presence at the moment of this first appearance of a human life: how could a human individual not be a human person? The Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature, but it constantly reaffirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured abortion. This teaching has not been changed and is unchangeable.” (Donum Vitae)

The Church teaches that there is ensouolment at the moment of conception.

 

[FAB]

This is what puzzles me. If the new policy basically reflects what has always been the case, then why the need for the new policy?

I agree that the written text of the new policy is in line with the Catechism. Yet, given the unyielding advocacy on the part of many in the gay rights movement who see the whole world in terms of gay rights, one has to wonder if in fact, things will just settle down. Does the BSA just go from an implicit policy of “don’t ask, don’t tell” to a policy of “ok to tell, but don’t talk about it any further?” I doubt that it will end there.

Perhaps “sexual orientation” will necessarily become a greater topic of awareness within the BSA. That would be a shame, given that BSA is not and ought not to be an organization about sexual awareness. Providing masculine role models is a good thing; affirming sexual disorder is not.

The boy scouts have been under attack for many years from the homosexual movement. Even though it has never really practiced and descrimination against open homosexulatity except in leaders, the movement will look at any organization and work to push it’s agenda.

The real issue goes beyond BSA. The homosexual movement first got to corporations, the government and made descrimination based on sexual orination a crime. even though the BSA is a private organization, it depends on the support of corporations for it’s existance. The movement starting putting preasure on the corporations to pull support to the BSA. What BSA did was to put in writing what had been an unspoken practice. The homesexual movement thinks they won a victory, but in truth won nothing. The only way that the movement wins is if it cause people of faith to pull thier support of BSA.
Since our CCC calls us to respect who have difficulties with thier sexual orinatation, we can continue to support the BSA.

 

[dcs]

The Church teaches that there is ensouolment at the moment of conception.

Conception and ensoulment are the same thing, so the above is a tautology.

If you mean that the Church teaches that ensoulment occurs at fertilization, then no, She does not, not in a definitive way. In Donum Vitae the CDF chose not to commit the Church to any particular teaching on the subject, and I don’t believe there has been further teaching along these lines since then (I could be wrong).

 

[Robert_Bay]

MODERATOR NOTICE

I will remind the members on this thread again to keep the discussion to the topic of the original post. This is NOT to be another 1,000 post thread generally attacking homosexuality, homosexuals, homosexual behavior or a so called, homosexual lobby. It is certainly not a thread about St. Thomas Aquinas.

Members will be cited, suspended or banned if they chose to ignore this warning

 

[CaptFun]

In case no one ever hears about things like THIS anymore … because the words “Boy Scouts” seem presently linked to … something we are not supposed to talk about * < (I think that idea adopts a long held tradition actually);* here is an excerpt from the BSA encouraging scouts to learn, DO and be tested unto promotion to new skill and leadership levels.

Steps in Advancement

Advancement, one of the eight methods by which the aims of Scouting are
achieved, has four steps through each award level.

First, the Scout learns. Much of his learning comes from other boys in his
patrol or troop and by active participation in troop program. His patrol
activities are directed toward the skills he needs. Every troop hike, camping
trip, or other activity offers potential learning experiences. A Scout learns to
pitch a tent by pitching one, to use a compass by finding directions, and to
cook a meal by having to prepare and eat it.

Second, the Scout is tested. The specific requirements determine the kind of
testing. Verbal testing is sufficient in some instances. In other instances, a
Scout must demonstrate his skills by doing

…^…
THAT is how I remember the scouts.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQGHGwYAyTYPFSIdCGZvZyvuKj4kDGOyyna5q3TffIWGq6OS0qh

Political Football should never
replace the real thing, in my opinion.

 

[CaptFun]

dallasnews.com/news/20130619-keller-church-severs-ties-with-boy-scouts-over-new-gay-member-policy.ece < Dallas area Church severs ties with Boy Scouts 6/19/2013. Accompanying photo emphasizes that it’s of a scout and his “gay” Dad, the latter of which had been a “den leader.” < A Cub Scout adult rank I believe.

No one is predicting the demise of the Boy Scouts of America because it laid out the welcome mat to openly gay youth last month. But there’s no denying that churches and faith-based organizations are filled with angst about the BSA’s new membership policy.

The latest incident erupted this week at St. Elizabeth Ann Seton Catholic Church in Keller, a growing suburban community next to Fort Worth. Monsignor E. James Hart announced to his parishoners that he is severing his church’s ties to a Boy Scout troop as of Jan. 1, 2014 - the day that BSA’s new policy accepting openly gay youth as scouts actually takes effect.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd....0x480/532510_386260804829029_1604263321_n.jpg

My parish school as a child supported both Boy and Girl Scouts with free meeting rooms and times. Aside from the school uniform, scout uniforms could be worn to school on the day of meetings or with special permission.

In general there were no values held by the boy scouts, cub scouts, girl scouts or brownies (that I knew of) that contradicted Catholic values in any way.

Now the scouts are being beset from all sides. In California a bill SB-323 has passed the State Senate and could become law with a vote from the State Assembly – it threatens the tax exempt status of not only the Boy Scouts but according to

SECTION 1. Section 6361 of the Revenue and Taxation Code … it would apply to

(3) (A) Little League, Bobby Sox, Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, Girl Scouts, Campfire, Inc., Young Men’s Christian Association, Young Women’s Christian Association, Future Farmers of America, Future Homemakers of America, 4-H Clubs, Distributive Education Clubs of America, Future Business Leaders of America, Vocational Industrial Clubs of America, Collegiate Young Farmers, Boys’ Clubs, Girls’ Clubs, Special Olympics, Inc., American Youth Soccer Organization, California Youth Soccer Association, North, California Youth Soccer Association, South, and Pop Warner football.

Among the criteria to be examined to retain a group’s tax exempt status (per this amended tax code if passed) is:

… does not discriminate on the basis of gender identity, race, sex, sexual orientation, nationality, religion, or religious affiliation.

The Traditional Values Coalition, which opposes the legislation, claims provisions of the bill could also be used against Religious Schools and institutions (and depending upon your point of view either strip these of their tax exempt status or open new streams of tax revenue for the state government).

leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201320140SB323

 

[fix]

Fr. Roger J. Landry on the “Scouts’ Dishonor”

There’s a difference between struggling with same-sex attractions and coming out as gay. In general to be gay means not just to admit to same-sex attractions but to consider them good, wholesome and an indispensably important part of one’s self-identity. To be gay also normally means that one shares the values of the gay subculture.

 

[fix]

What change is that the practice that had always been in scouting, to not descriminate on any basis including sexual orintation has been put formally in writing and is now open for discussion.
I have sat around many a campfire and sex and sexual orintation was never discussed. I suspect that the same will remain true.
I have nothing to fear from a scout who may or may not be gay. Niether do the boys that may be in the same troop with him. The gay scout is not somehow ging to make the other scouts gay.
Once again, being gay is not a sin, the church recongized that it may be how a person is. Acting upon the acts of homosexullity is a sin.

I do not agree with you at all. The bishop who speaks on Scouting has said that the Church can live with the policy and that implies the previous policy was better and morally just. It also implies the new policy is workable only if the Church can apply Her teachings as She must. The change is evident and different from before. To deny this is beyond reasonable.

 

[fix]

dallasnews.com/news/20130619-keller-church-severs-ties-with-boy-scouts-over-new-gay-member-policy.ece < Dallas area Church severs ties with Boy Scouts 6/19/2013. Accompanying photo emphasizes that it’s of a scout and his “gay” Dad, the latter of which had been a “den leader.” < A Cub Scout adult rank I believe.

Thank you and I bet more will follow. To claim there is no change in the policy is to deny reality.

 

[Tigg]

Fr. Derek Lappe, Pastor of Our Lady Star of the Sea, is just one of many priests who are making the unpopular decision to protect the boys and emphasize the flagrant harm with this policy: (Emphasis added, mine.)

Who can deny the truth of his words?

I do not feel that it is possible for us to live out, and to teach, the authentic truth about human sexuality within the confines of the Boy Scout’s new policy and so I would like to give an explanation as to why it will be necessary for our parish to part ways with the New Boy Scouts.

Through no fault of their own, through the breakdown of families, through the failures of society at large young people can find themselves struggling with same-sex attraction. The question is, what is the best way to help them? How do we offer hope and healing?

The New Boy Scouts are basically offering a program of ratifying a label of “gay”, which the young man has placed on himself, and which so many elements of society also are happy to place on him.

For some, negative childhood experiences are overcome by later positive interactions. Some make a conscious decision to turn away from temptation. The presence and the power of God’s grace, while not always measurable, cannot be discounted as a factor in helping an at-risk individual turn away from same-sex attraction. **The labeling of an adolescent, or worse a child, as unchangeably “homosexual” does the individual a grave disservice. Such adolescents or children can, with appropriate, positive intervention, be given proper guidance to deal with early emotional traumas.” **

Our parish cannot be involved with a group that has decided to ratify or approve the self-identification of a 10-18 year old boy as “gay” or “homosexual”. To me it is cruel, and abusive and absolutely contrary to the Gospel to in any way confirm a teenager in the confusion of same-sex attraction, which is what the New Boy Scout policy will do.

starofthesea.net/index.php/our-parish/blog/626-fr-lappes-response-to-new-boy-scouts

 

[JimG]

I keep coming down firmly on both sides of this issue. Sorry. I think the matter has by now been discussed to death, but I came across one more article in Catholic World Report about a priest, Fr. Landry, who has doubts about the change. He worries that the change will end up being not just about non-discrimination in the admission of Scouts with SSA, but that it will be about approval of gay lifestyles. He worries that the organization may decide to bar those, either as members or leaders, who are deemed to be ‘homophobic.’

Here is the link.

I can only hope that he is wrong, and that the Scouts will continue to be a good organization for boys. It will just depend on what happens next.

 

[pnewton]

Who can deny the truth of his words?

This sentence I agree with half, disagree with half:

Our parish cannot be involved with a group that has decided to ratify or approve the self-identification of a 10-18 year old boy as “gay” or “homosexual”. **To me it is cruel, and abusive and absolutely contrary to the Gospel to in any way confirm a teenager in the confusion of same-sex attraction, which is what the New Boy Scout policy will do.

**The underlined part I agreed with. I do not agree that BSA has ratified or approved self-identification of a 10-18 year old boy as homosexual. I take the change literally and no further. Should such a boy identify himself as such, he cannot be denied membership, nor would I want to. I am with Fr. Landry that such a boy needs help understanding moral reality. If you have an orthodox and solid group of boys, such a one might be helped. Positive peer pressure can be useful. I have seen it work wonders. Just today I saw the good boys (8) stand for what is right in the face of one who was wanting to be hurtful to others.

 

[fix]

I keep coming down firmly on both sides of this issue. Sorry. I think the matter has by now been discussed to death, but I came across one more article in Catholic World Report about a priest, Fr. Landry, who has doubts about the change. He worries that the change will end up being not just about non-discrimination in the admission of Scouts with SSA, but that it will be about approval of gay lifestyles. He worries that the organization may decide to bar those, either as members or leaders, who are deemed to be ‘homophobic.’

Here is the link.

I can only hope that he is wrong, and that the Scouts will continue to be a good organization for boys. It will just depend on what happens next.

Well, given the state of the culture, given that the BSA won a SC challenge, given the BSA said it would not change policies and then did, what other information would lead you to think they are headed in the correct direction?

In theory yes it is possible they will fight the ideological agenda that forced them to change policy. In practice, I would not think it is prudent to conclude they will suddenly stop here.

In fact, prudence tells us to watch them very carefully.

 

[FAB]

I do not agree with you at all. The bishop who speaks on Scouting has said that the Church can live with the policy and that implies the previous policy was better and morally just. It also implies the new policy is workable only if the Church can apply Her teachings as She must. The change is evident and different from before. To deny this is beyond reasonable./QUOTE

You may disagree, but it doesn’t change what the practice had been of basically don’t ask, don;t tell.
Really though, what do we have to fear from a child who has confussed thoughts about who he is. If we want to make a difference in his life is it not better that he be with men who are not confussed.
Statitics indicate that even boys who have have homosexual encounters as a boy, do not turn out that way. We truely have nothing to loose by showing kindness.
The Samaitan women in Jesus time was thought of as the same as many think of homosexuals. We dare not associate with them, they are dirty, less than human. Perhaps we need to gear down take a breath and follow his example of love.

Deacon frank

 

[zab]

Fr. Derek Lappe, Pastor of Our Lady Star of the Sea, is just one of many priests who are making the unpopular decision to protect the boys and emphasize the flagrant harm with this policy: (Emphasis added, mine.)

Who can deny the truth of his words?

starofthesea.net/index.php/our-parish/blog/636-a-few-points-of-clarification-regarding-the-decision-on-scouting-at-our-lady-star-of-the-sea
A Few Points of Clarification Regarding the Decision on Scouting at Our Lady Star of the Sea

 

[fix]

FAB:

You may disagree, but it doesn’t change what the practice had been of basically don’t ask, don;t tell.
Really though, what do we have to fear from a child who has confussed thoughts about who he is. If we want to make a difference in his life is it not better that he be with men who are not confussed.
Statitics indicate that even boys who have have homosexual encounters as a boy, do not turn out that way. We truely have nothing to loose by showing kindness.
The Samaitan women in Jesus time was thought of as the same as many think of homosexuals. We dare not associate with them, they are dirty, less than human. Perhaps we need to gear down take a breath and follow his example of love.

Deacon frank

My advice to you is to read the links to the priests who have severed ties with the BSA or who have written thoughtfully about how this change is harmful to boys.


link

 

[zab]

My advice to you is to read the links to the priests who have severed ties with the BSA or who have written thoughtfully about how this change is harmful to boys.


link

Some people won’t go beyond the article you posted to read the entire SCOUTS’ DISHONOR article. Here is more from Fr. Landry’s article:

While the BSA policy shift doesn’t explicitly encourage Scouts to come out as gay, it does eliminate the clear institutional discouragement. As the bishops describe, this isn’t psychologically or spiritually healthy for the young person involved.
For the other Scouts and Scoutmasters, a gay Scout is no longer just a fellow Scout — and all other members of the troop are provoked to relate to him according to those attractions. His attractions can’t be ignored because coming out of the closet confronts all the other Scouts with them. At least for a time, the attention will no longer be exclusively on the next camping trip or activity, but on how the troop should respond to their gay confrere’s self-disclosure.
Some boys will inevitably tease and, for troops chartered by Catholic parishes that maintain their affiliation after the BSA’s regrettable decision, it will inevitably precipitate a discussion on how there should be no unjust discrimination.
Other boys will start talking more than normal about sexual attractions, both heterosexual and homosexual ones. Authentically Catholic troops will need to enter into the nuanced conversation about how same-sex inclinations are objectively disordered, predisposing one toward what is truly not good for the human person, as the U.S. bishops described in their 2006 document.
It’s also inevitable that such a disclosure will bring about more conversation about sexual activity as well, leading authentically Catholic troops to have to broach the subject of the distinction between same-sex orientation and the immorality of same-sex acts.
Scouting is not supposed to be a sexual education or moral theology class. That’s, however, what it will inevitably become once a Scout elicits these conversations by coming out of the closet.
Scoutmasters will now need to become expert not just in tying knots and pitching tents but in guiding these sensitive conversations.
And eleven-year-old Boy Scouts will now need to grow up faster than the Boy Scout formation program is intended to guide them. anchornews.org/columnists/putting_into_deep/june_14_2013.php