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chnchris
Guest
Code:
If i were him, i'd bring in a bunch of orthodox priests
from Africa or India - he's likely to have a mutiny there.
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C
chnchris
Guest
Code:
Honestly, i'd send it to SD, as he may never see it if
sent to Saginaw!523 N. Duluth Ave Sioux Falls, SD 57104
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avephilomena
Guest
You also state:
“However, if not kneeling dillutes the sanctity of mass for you, you would have a hard time going to mass in Rome, since they don’t have kneelers in St. Peter’s Basilica.”
The absence of kneelers in sections of St. Peter’s Basilica (not all of it) does not prevent the faithful from kneeling during the consecration. I know this as I have been to Mass there many times.
Pax
Alex
“However, if not kneeling dillutes the sanctity of mass for you, you would have a hard time going to mass in Rome, since they don’t have kneelers in St. Peter’s Basilica.”
The absence of kneelers in sections of St. Peter’s Basilica (not all of it) does not prevent the faithful from kneeling during the consecration. I know this as I have been to Mass there many times.
Pax
Alex
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chnchris
Guest
Code:
That sounds like he is a humble bishop for the people
by roaming around his diocese, but truthfully it makes
him inaccessible to them! i can remember when i was
ministering to our parish, often our priest had no idea
where " Ken " was. Let's have an analogy:
Shepherd watching over his flock, staff in hand or
being like a sheep amongst a few, while the wolves
(dissenters), devour the rest of the stupid unprotected
flock.
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frommi
Guest
That might be the most odd analogy I have ever heard. The Bishop was consistently in the chancery, and very often visiting parish upon parish (nearly every weekend presiding somewhere new).
His reason for traveling was largely that he wanted people to see the chancery as a place that supported what was going on in parishes.
He was available and I think you are sorely mistaken.
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ekindermann
Guest
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Anna_Elizabeth
Guest
Tell me you’re kidding.
Who “people?”
And we also “all know” that nobody says to follow “everything Rome says.”
Oh, well then…
Good Heavens! I have never even heard of that idea! Do you mean to say that the uninformed are referring to the Pope as not only a CEO, but the successor of Christ??? Do they imagine that Peter was Christ reincarnate? Things have surely come to what they used to call “a pretty pass!”
Fess up, frommi: Does the idea of Bishop Carlson (actually, all the Bishop Carlsons that are emerging), frighten you?
Anna
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ekindermann
Guest
Thank you, Thank you , Thank you , Scapular, a voice cries out in the darkness! Very well said, I so admire your eloquence and patience in responding to such posts.
*** I just do something like this :crying: or like this :banghead: on my keyboard when reading posts like that. I can’t even respond with charity as is obvious by my last post. Too frustrating. ***
What you say about it being a slow poison is exactly on the money. We become so unaware of what is happening to us and our Faith.
***Well, I’ve made it this long, just over 5 years, awaiting a “change” in this diocese, I know others have waited and prayed much longer. My final prayers in the last year were, “Please, Dear God, change his heart or remove him.” Whe he died I prayed for him saying thank you to God for his service and any good that he did, he must have done a great deal for he was dearly loved by many, and I begged forgiveness for him and for myself if I have judged him wrongly. I now pray that our diocese will be able to heal and become stronger in our unity with the Body of Christ so that we may serve Him as He wills us. ***
***The first draft of my letter to “The Most Reverend Robert Carlson, Bishop-Elect of Saginaw” is about half done. And I’m taking the advice of someone on this forum and sending it to Sioux Falls. *
**
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chnchris
Guest
ekindermann said:
Wise move.
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frommi
Guest
Anna Elizabeth:
So, if you’re asking if I’m praying that the Bishop do certain things, no I am not. I did not offer a prayer asking for a Bishop Untener clone to come to the diocese, nor did I offer a prayer asking for someone the opposite.
Might he change some things? He most certainly will, as would anyone who is new to an area. Pastors change thing’s in parishes all the time upon their installations.
As I’ve said before, with all the problems and issues that face us day to day, I don’t know why we’d want to waste a new leaders’ time re-hashing the kneeling/standing thing again and again and again. Catholic schools are closing, the number of unemployed in the area is going up, and we’re going to try to decide who is more “holy”? I think that’s ludicrous.
Saginaw is a wonderful place. I think Bishop Carlson will find the people warm and celebratory. If that is not good enough for him and he wants to push them in a particular direction to be more, good for him. That’s what a shepherd should do.
Uhhh…no. I’m not generally frightened by the magisterium of the Catholic church. I may disagree with it from time to time, but I’ve always believed that when it comes to matter such as these, the Holy Spirit has a plan in mind.Fess up, frommi: Does the idea of Bishop Carlson (actually, all the Bishop Carlsons that are emerging), frighten you?
Anna
So, if you’re asking if I’m praying that the Bishop do certain things, no I am not. I did not offer a prayer asking for a Bishop Untener clone to come to the diocese, nor did I offer a prayer asking for someone the opposite.
Might he change some things? He most certainly will, as would anyone who is new to an area. Pastors change thing’s in parishes all the time upon their installations.
As I’ve said before, with all the problems and issues that face us day to day, I don’t know why we’d want to waste a new leaders’ time re-hashing the kneeling/standing thing again and again and again. Catholic schools are closing, the number of unemployed in the area is going up, and we’re going to try to decide who is more “holy”? I think that’s ludicrous.
Saginaw is a wonderful place. I think Bishop Carlson will find the people warm and celebratory. If that is not good enough for him and he wants to push them in a particular direction to be more, good for him. That’s what a shepherd should do.
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teri123
Guest
I am very disappointed by some of the things I have seen here on this posting. Those of you crucifying Bishop Ken should be ashamed - who are you to judge? Bishop Ken did not lead this Diocese to rot and I resent you assuming so. Any problems we might have come as a result of you, the people, maybe you stood by while changes took place and didn’t speak up when asked to. Just because you disagree with some of the changes doesn’t mean they are wrong, because maybe you can’t see the big picture. I have been to many churches throughout this Diocese for the past 30 years and I have never once not seen a crucifix (which leads me to believe those of you ranting a very, very select few). And for you to berate a pastoral administrator by calling them “nun pastors” - did you ever stop to think it was because some of you lazy men did not step up to the plate to become priests?
I am increasingly disgusted by what I see in this Diocese - not only from the priests but from the people. I see these “See Me” Catholics all over this diocese and country. See me kneel, see me pray more than you, see me give more than you. If you were truly as devout as you claim, whether you kneel or not should not be an issue, your faith should be stronger than that on the inside.
In Midland, an Evangelical Free Church has over 2000+ families…most of them were Catholic. They left because they found people who actually lived by Christian example and lived lives devoted to Christ. The felt the superficiality that is chronic among Catholics. Maybe we should be looking at chruches like this one that is growing - I think the thing you’ll be shocked to see is that they actually study the Bible rather than argue about who should kneel when and what kind of receipe to use.
You all should be ashamed of yourselves. Stop passing the blame for your shortcomings. What have you done today that people can look at you and say “Wow, that person is a great example of love and acceptance, he must be Christian.”
I am increasingly disgusted by what I see in this Diocese - not only from the priests but from the people. I see these “See Me” Catholics all over this diocese and country. See me kneel, see me pray more than you, see me give more than you. If you were truly as devout as you claim, whether you kneel or not should not be an issue, your faith should be stronger than that on the inside.
In Midland, an Evangelical Free Church has over 2000+ families…most of them were Catholic. They left because they found people who actually lived by Christian example and lived lives devoted to Christ. The felt the superficiality that is chronic among Catholics. Maybe we should be looking at chruches like this one that is growing - I think the thing you’ll be shocked to see is that they actually study the Bible rather than argue about who should kneel when and what kind of receipe to use.
You all should be ashamed of yourselves. Stop passing the blame for your shortcomings. What have you done today that people can look at you and say “Wow, that person is a great example of love and acceptance, he must be Christian.”
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Shiann
Guest
I think they maybe some did step up- and were admonished for their “conservativeness”.
There is evidence from the GIRM that certain things are not correct. Period.
Some men are not called to the priesthood. To insinuate that some “lazy men” didn’t step up to the plate is harsh. They did step up to the plate, they chose another vocation God had planned for them- Married Life, or Single Life. The GIRM and other Church documents are also very clear on the limits of the vocation of nuns and sisters. Giving Homilies is not one of them.
But everything that a Catholic does at a Mass is a reflection of that internal Faith. Every kneel, every prayer, every offering is a manifestation of the internal Faith. They each have important meanings and biblical/traditional support. To tell a Catholic that these “should not be an issue- what matters is what is on the inside” is to suppress part of what makes Catholocism so beautiful and complete and fulfilling- and humbling.
You are right, many people have alterior (and maybe selfish)motives for wanting kneelers, or wanting more structured and consistant prayer. They should be ashamed of themselves- if their motives are selfish. But just because a few might have selfish motives- is no reason to scrap the milllenia long tradition.
There is a certain amount of discipline required in Catholicism- it isn’t all “spiritual”. To deny importance of a part of the religious structure of the Mass is tantamount to one denying the importance of the internal feelings and dedication one needs to convene with God on the spiritual level. Religion and Spirituality cannot be seperated in Catholicism. Catholics have the structure to better achieve the spirituality.
Part of what you are describing in your example of people leaving the parish is purely poor Catechisim on the part of the Church in the area. If the people are ignorant of the structure of their religion- how can they hope to achieve that enlightened spirituality they so desire!
Being a Faithfull Catholic isn’t only about the spiritual tasks of love and acceptance. We are also called to point out errors of Faith to our fellow man, and gently offer them help back to the fold. I am, in fact, much pleased to see so many people in the area get involved (as you advised them to do) and reign in the errors.
They will have great leadership in this endeavor, under Bishop Carlson.
God Bless.
S
sfcatholic
Guest
Up until this summer I had been studying for the priesthood for the diocese of Sioux Falls. I lived in the bishop’s home this summer. He is a very conservative bishop. I love everything about the way he has handled our diocese. From the way he promotes vocations and the seminaries that he uses to the way that he challenges his opposers forcefully and yet tactfully. He is a great man and I think there are many changes to come in saginaw. He is very careful about following all of the churches teachings and traditions. There has recently been a revival of love for adoration of the Blessed Sacrament throughout our diocese and this was greatly sparked from our bishop’s own devout faith.
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Scapular
Guest
ekindermann said:
Ekindermann,
I too have spent time in the confessional over Bishop Ken. His actions have angered me (e.g., his write-up in M. Rose’s “Goodbye Good Men”).
I have said about 10 Rosaries (indulgenced) for the repose of his soul. I have also paid for 30 Gregorian Masses to be said for him. (I fear his funeral Mass was illicit - call me paranoid.) I am trying to love my former Bishop as best I can. He damaged the Church but he also helped it and he was good in many ways. God will judge. I’m sure B. Carlson will provide the healing.
Be good,
Scapular
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BayCityRickL
Guest
Everyone who knew Bishop Untener has or should have read his essay on the Diocese of Saginaw website about “Why I became a priest.”
In a nutshell, Untener wanted to be different about everything, he wanted to do everything his own way. I don’t see anything particularly and automatically spiritual about the things he did, particularly selling the Bishop’s mansion. His essay did not mention a particularly spiritual dimension to doing things his own way, it comes off to me as simply being ego-driven.
It was a dramatic decision, and he got a lot of attention for it. It was mentioned throughout his career as bishop, and, of course, it was a big deal in obituaries and eulogies. If he didn’t do it for publicity and ego-reasons, he would have done this out of public view.
Now, I may be wrong, but I heard that he used the proceeds from the sale of the mansion to purchase a retirement home for the previous bishop, Bishop Reh, in Florida. So, Untener’s decision to sell the mansion was more pragmatic than anything else. He needed money fast, and that’s how he got it, and that’s what he did with it. The right or wrong of this is up to God.
C’mon, stevendmo, there’s no necessary connection between selling the mansion and visiting the parishes and the hospitals. I’m sure that every bishop visits parishes and hospitals.
Furthermore, no one has touched on the political correctness or incorrectness of the Bishop vacating the East Side of Saginaw. But, I’m sure that implication has not been lost on a lot of people. Saginaw is racially divided. And, now the Bishop, like a lot of white folks and businesses, have deserted the East Side of Saginaw. Tell me that has never occurred to you?
As Paul Harvey might say, …that’s the rest of the story.
B
BayCityRickL
Guest
Like many, I’d like to “write that letter to the new Bishop.”
I’m not sure that will have so much of an effect, as it might to meet him personally and simply welcome him to the diocese. Introduce yourself as I will, as an “orthodox and faithful” Catholic.
Like he said, “give [him] a chance.” I think he KNOWS what is going on.
As a specialist in canon law, Carlson knows the book. There’s no reason to read it to him. A lot of people are going to come at him like a ball of fire. Let them respectfully meet the new Bishop.
May I suggest we all pray for the Bishop and invoke the Holy Spirit upon him and the Diocese.
Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful
Enkindle in us the fire of Your divine love
Send forth Your Spirit and we shall be re-created
And You shall renew the face of the earth
Oh, God, You renew the hearts of the faithful
By the light of the Holy Spirit
Make us always truly wise
And ever rejoice in Your consolation
Through Christ our Lord. Amen.
I’m not sure that will have so much of an effect, as it might to meet him personally and simply welcome him to the diocese. Introduce yourself as I will, as an “orthodox and faithful” Catholic.
Like he said, “give [him] a chance.” I think he KNOWS what is going on.
As a specialist in canon law, Carlson knows the book. There’s no reason to read it to him. A lot of people are going to come at him like a ball of fire. Let them respectfully meet the new Bishop.
May I suggest we all pray for the Bishop and invoke the Holy Spirit upon him and the Diocese.
Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful
Enkindle in us the fire of Your divine love
Send forth Your Spirit and we shall be re-created
And You shall renew the face of the earth
Oh, God, You renew the hearts of the faithful
By the light of the Holy Spirit
Make us always truly wise
And ever rejoice in Your consolation
Through Christ our Lord. Amen.
F
frommi
Guest
Wow…are you ever misguided…when Untener sold the mansion, he specifically put money aside so that his successors would have the option of purchasing a new home.
I’ve also read that essay, and it does not come across to me at all as someone saying he wanted to do everything “his own way”.
Just because a person did not do things your way…that does not mean he did not do them the church’s way.
M
MBS1
Guest
Teri 123 said,
"I have been to many churches throughout this Diocese for the past 30 years and I have never once not seen a crucifix (which leads me to believe those of you ranting a very, very select few). "
From another site one learns from Loyola Rambler, “We’ll have to meet for mass at the cathedral (St. Mary’s in Saginaw) one Sunday. It’s mind-boggling what they do there. My personal favorite is the priest giving Cliff notes to the reading before it’s ever read. He also sits in the front row for every part of the mass that has him seated. No entrance processional, just him and the lectors walking up and sitting down. No crucifix. A big movie screen across the back of the altar. The altar takes up 50% of the church.”
I also understand that Blessed Sacrament Parish in Midland does not have a crucifix as well. Those are just a couple to start. Just thought you should know. However, maybe the readers here can enlighten us. If you **do not **have a crucifix on the alter of your church in the Saginaw Diocese, come on down!! Let’s take an informal poll (frankly, I’m more curious than anything else).
MBS1
"I have been to many churches throughout this Diocese for the past 30 years and I have never once not seen a crucifix (which leads me to believe those of you ranting a very, very select few). "
From another site one learns from Loyola Rambler, “We’ll have to meet for mass at the cathedral (St. Mary’s in Saginaw) one Sunday. It’s mind-boggling what they do there. My personal favorite is the priest giving Cliff notes to the reading before it’s ever read. He also sits in the front row for every part of the mass that has him seated. No entrance processional, just him and the lectors walking up and sitting down. No crucifix. A big movie screen across the back of the altar. The altar takes up 50% of the church.”
I also understand that Blessed Sacrament Parish in Midland does not have a crucifix as well. Those are just a couple to start. Just thought you should know. However, maybe the readers here can enlighten us. If you **do not **have a crucifix on the alter of your church in the Saginaw Diocese, come on down!! Let’s take an informal poll (frankly, I’m more curious than anything else).
MBS1
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frankieg
Guest
hello i am a catholic , and i have been invited to go to a bible study at a non catholic church.(bible church)we will will be studying the book of romans ,one day a week for about 8 weeks.Is this a good idea? thans Frank
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MBS1
Guest
To frankieg,
I’m not sure why this is in a thread about Bishop Carlson
, but here is my two (ok, three) cents worth. 
Unless you really understand Romans, I would not recommend it. You will get a Protestant “saved (justified) by faith alone” slant. Rom 3:28 is where Martin Luther originally added the word “alone” to justify his theology, even acknowledging it was not in the original Greek :tsktsk: . Our bible study group did Romans using an outline from Catholic Exchange (this was a couple of years ago - but I think they have this on their web site again). Anyway, a number of Catholics in the study had done a Romans study throught BSF (I think this means Bible Study Fellowship) which is essentially a protestant study. The number of times the remark “They sure didn’t show this in BSF” was said was actually humorous. I have a friend who is a strong Catholic (amateur) apologist going through Romans right now with three Evangelical Christians, ( I offered to help but apparently they wanted the 3:1 ratio). He is actually showing them that the Catholic interpretation of Romans is biblical, but it is taking a lot of effort. So, unless you really know you bible and what the Catholic Church teaches, I’d stay away. Studies like this have been known to pull poorly catechised Catholics out of the Church. Most Catholic Churches have bible studies - have you tried looking around for one? Hope that helps.:tiphat:
MBS1
I’m not sure why this is in a thread about Bishop Carlson
, but here is my two (ok, three) cents worth. Unless you really understand Romans, I would not recommend it. You will get a Protestant “saved (justified) by faith alone” slant. Rom 3:28 is where Martin Luther originally added the word “alone” to justify his theology, even acknowledging it was not in the original Greek :tsktsk: . Our bible study group did Romans using an outline from Catholic Exchange (this was a couple of years ago - but I think they have this on their web site again). Anyway, a number of Catholics in the study had done a Romans study throught BSF (I think this means Bible Study Fellowship) which is essentially a protestant study. The number of times the remark “They sure didn’t show this in BSF” was said was actually humorous. I have a friend who is a strong Catholic (amateur) apologist going through Romans right now with three Evangelical Christians, ( I offered to help but apparently they wanted the 3:1 ratio). He is actually showing them that the Catholic interpretation of Romans is biblical, but it is taking a lot of effort. So, unless you really know you bible and what the Catholic Church teaches, I’d stay away. Studies like this have been known to pull poorly catechised Catholics out of the Church. Most Catholic Churches have bible studies - have you tried looking around for one? Hope that helps.:tiphat:
MBS1
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