Bishop Robert Carlson - Sioux Falls

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psalm90:
The answer to the first question is, I wouldn’t expect pastors to reveal those intentions. I surmise that the ongoing innovation in the Masses locally reflects Bishop Untener’s belief that the Mass is boring. He preached so much about making worship better, that his appraisel of GIRM-compliant worship is obvious. The fact that he videotaped Masses and held critiques of priests shows how much he intended to micromanage.
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I would point out that the videotapes were more to improve preaching than liturgical rubricsm.

Also…if you take time to read what the late Bishop had to say about liturgy it was that he lamented the fact that in many ways participation was less now than before Vatican II. I don’t think he ever said mass was “boring”. He just felt it was important that the assembly find a way to be fully present to the mysteries that were unfolding around them.
 
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frommi:
In many places, like the archdiocese of chicago, they are referred to as “deacon couples” and the wives go through just about the same formation as the husbands.

And please remember that the late Bishop commissioned a very large number of lay ministers. He simply did not see the fairness in requiring the same things of both genders and ordaining one gender, and commissioning the other. Frankly, it’s not something I agree with, but can see the point.
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Referring to them as “deacon couples” is inaccurate and misleading. Women have extremely important vocations of their own. There are many roles for women in the Church. “Equality” in Holy Orders is not, should never be, and will never be one of them.
 
Dear frommi,

No one can ever know anyone else’s intentions, such as what Bishop Untener intended with his videotapes. For sure, an audiotape would have given him most of what he needed to know about the homilies being delivered in the parishes.

A videotape is a much more comprehensive tool. I’m sure Bishop Ken wasn’t THAT much more an expert than any of his priests on delivering homilies that a video recording would have been necessary for just that reason alone.

furthermore, he had almost 25 years to make things better. How much better do you think things were because of him, having attendance at Mass in the diocese overall fallen off an average of 20% in just the last five years alone? It seems to me he wasn’t having much of a positive impact – negative, if anything !!
 
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psalm90:
furthermore, he had almost 25 years to make things better. How much better do you think things were because of him, having attendance at Mass in the diocese overall fallen off an average of 20% in just the last five years alone? It seems to me he wasn’t having much of a positive impact – negative, if anything !!
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A lot of people would say that many things are much better…the laity’s knowledge of the gospels and other scriptures for example.

I’d also add that mass attendance has fallen at a rate just about equal to that of the population in the diocese…it’s a rural diocese where the overall population is declining…not increasing.

And I’m sure there are more than a few so-called “orthodox” dioceses where mass attendance has slipped.
 
Detroit Sue:
Referring to them as “deacon couples” is inaccurate and misleading. Women have extremely important vocations of their own. There are many roles for women in the Church. “Equality” in Holy Orders is not, should never be, and will never be one of them.
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I’m simply telling you how they are rightly referred to in the archdiocese of Chicago…I don’t think it’s an equality thing…but the USCB has been clear that it is somewhat of a shared ministry.
 
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frommi:
INow, if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to check for the Gospel passage where Jesus specifies the proper way to display a crucifx and forbids the disciples from using honey when “doing this in memory of me”.
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Dear frommi,

sometimes people get antagonistic in these forums, but let’s not go there, OK? But, I have to respond to your posts when, like this, they just don’t make sense…to me.

Let’s go slow now, so we don’t overlook anything. The night before Jesus died He was with the apostles celebrating the Passover, with me so far?

During the Passover, only unleavened bread was used, which the simplest, made with flour and water.

For further insight, you could refer to the Bible, or you could go to the supermarket and look for matzos in the ethnic food section.

I agree, I don’t recall Jesus giving any recipes during His ministry.

Certainly, the traditional interpretation in the Latin Rite has been to use just flour and water, although leavened bread is used in other Rites.

LIkewise, the gospels mention using wine, but there are so many today. We could have white, or rose, or red, and dry or sweet, etc. and then there are modern wines that are not made from grapes at all. Where do we start and where do we stop? And, who decides? And, do we have signs at Mass indicating what flavors have been consecrated that day? And, while we must fast BEFORE receiving Communion, nothing says we must fast AFTER. So, we could serve the cheese right there, too!! Gosh, I like this innovation thing, myself.
 
Regarding the lack of crucifixes in Saginaw parishes, FROMMI asks: “Is it possible that (again) it’s a return to an earlier tradition in the Catholic church? The early Christians had no crucifixes…”

How far back to we want to go in order to find these “early Christians” and pattern our worship after them? If we decide to use the book of Acts, then let’s get rid of our deacons, because the Urchristians didn’t have any. (Deacons didn’t come onto the scene until chapter 6.) In fact, in addition to divesting ourselves of crucifixes, we’d better rip out our organs, because they weren’t part of original worship either. Let’s cease eucharistic adoration, because Acts makes no mention that those “early Christians” engaged in the practice. In fact, we ought really to sell off all our parish church buildings and cathedrals, because the original church gathered and worshipped in the homes of its individual members.
As the deacon example demonstrates, over time the Catholic Church has grown and matured and blossomed into a beautiful oak tree. Do we really want to cram it back into the acorn (like some Protestant groups do), especially when it comes to practices which the Magisterium proscribes?

As to FROMMI’s comment that: “Over time, the history of the church led us to a point where there was uncertainty that Jesus even died on the cross, thus the reliance on the icon of a crucifixion” I first want to ask: Are you kidding me??? But maybe there’s an explanation behind this that isn’t heterodox.

Finally, kudos to Scapular for pointing out to us the truth that our redemption comes not from the resurrection but from the crucifixion. 👍

Grandin
 
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frommi:
I’m simply telling you how they are rightly referred to in the archdiocese of Chicago…I don’t think it’s an equality thing…but the USCB has been clear that it is somewhat of a shared ministry.
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Again, you give innacurate information. When doing a search on the USCCB website using your term, “deacon couples,” there are no documents to support your statement. Please cite your source. This is the only thing I found that addresses the deacon’s wives:

usccb.org/deacon/WivesofDeacons_UsersGuide.pdf

Please start a new thread if you have something to show me.

Sorry about the hijack of this thread. No more derailing, I promise. 🙂
 
QUOTE=loyola rambler]Well, I can’t speak for the far more urban AD of Detroit, but up here there are several counties that only have 2-3 Catholic parishes to serve 900-1000 sq miles. They can’t support full time priests, but closing them means people have to drive long distances under harsh winter conditions. The solution was to put the Grand Rapids Dominicans in charge of them (yes, as pastors) and have the priests rotate to cover masses on the weekends. Places like Gladwin, Clare and Roscommon counties could never be served by a single priest without a lot of help…and there aren’t enough deacons in those areas. Without the nuns, there wouldn’t be Catholic anything going on. It’s not a cop out, just a reality. I couldn’t bear the thought that a priest in a place like Gladwin county would be expected to travel from Edenville to Houghton Lake all by himself all winter long. This way, with 2-3 nuns, a deacon and 2 priests covering 3 parishes, they’re doing very well and the priest is actually freed up to actually be the shepherd.

I found this posted on the “Detroit Priests Under Siege” and no one replied to it, refuting it. It’s bugged me ever since I read it last night in the wee hours of the am. That thread seems to have died so I thought it should be posted her & replied to. Hope that’s ok?

I live in Clare County. The Houghton Lake/Roscommon areas that loyola rambler refers to are not even in this diocese. They are in the Gaylord Diocese. loyal rambler says: They can’t support full time priests, but closing them means people have to drive long distances under harsh winter conditions. Well, we have to travel either 35 minutes north to Prudenville in Houghton Lake or 35 minutes south east to Sanford to find good Masses, in good and bad weather.

The nuns of whom I have had the displeasure of encountering (four of them) have all done a great disservice to these parishes. My friend just today inquired of the nun pastor here about the invalid matter used and she was suprised by the hostility & defensiveness that she has never seen from her before. Well, sadly I am not. That’s how they seem to be. Very nice as long as you fall in line with this Untneristic mentality, but challenge or ask questions? Whoa you are then greeted with the sharp rebukes: pre-vat II, rulistic, phariseeistic, judgemental, worrying anbout the unimportant, etc. She got it all, poor thing. She hasn’t dealt with these folks yet as I have, she doesn’t have the steel armor that we’ve learned to put on before talking to them about these things…But God bless her for trying.

The only good thing I can say about it is that the good sister said she would do whatever the new bishop says, but until then they have been “instructed” (by Sutton) to “continue on the way we have been.” Oh yeah, she said Bishop Untener was a visionary, yeah. uh huh.

But back to the above, to say that “Without the nuns, there wouldn’t be Catholic anything going on." oh my gosh! PUHLEEZE! AND furthermore "the priests, who are supposedly then freed up to be the shepherds”! What a crock! We have no weekday Mass and then on the weekend, for both Masses, only one on Sat & one on Sun. he sits while the nun gives the homilies, yeah I guess that 10-15 minutes sermon on the readings is very taxing, heaven’s I just don’t know how one man could do it. That plus the 15 minutes before Sat. Mass reserved for confession. I mean in 15 minutes he must see just sooooo many people, right?! Downright exhausting. (Of course, no one is ever encouraged to actually GO into the box.) I guess I’m being harsh, he is RETIRED after all. OK to do the Mass prayers, but not a homily??? Do I get to retire from my vocation as a wife? Not that I’d want to, but does anyone see my point here?

Funny too, but if you put this idea that there are too many folks up here to be served by too few priests next to the idea from Frommi that "mass attendance has fallen at a rate just about equal to that of the population in the diocese…it’s a rural diocese where the overall population is declining…not increasing."
…hmmmmm seems a contradiction there, doesn’t it?
 
Detroit Sue:
Again, you give innacurate information. When doing a search on the USCCB website using your term, “deacon couples,” there are no documents to support your statement. Please cite your source. This is the only thing I found that addresses the deacon’s wives:

usccb.org/deacon/WivesofDeacons_UsersGuide.pdf

Please start a new thread if you have something to show me.

Sorry about the hijack of this thread. No more derailing, I promise. 🙂
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I apologize, it’s not a term used by the USCCB. I do know however, that they are referred to as such in this particular archdiocese, and from what I’ve understood in the past, the cardinal finds it very important that each parish have a ‘deacon couple’.

Whether or not this is licit, valid, right, wrong…no clue…I have no issue with it.
 
I attended Mass yesterday at St. John Vianney in Saginaw. No entrance procession, the pastor was seated with the congregation, not in the sanctuary, however the choir and fidgety choir director were prominent behind the altar and ambo. No tabernacle in site, there was a small crucifix. Father proclaimed the gospel then introduced a member of the “lay preaching” ministry for the homily. Green altar linens, illicit hosts, no chalice in site, hosts on wooden plates with cloth napkins and precious blood in wine goblets. The entire congregation chanted the doxology to the Eucharistic prayer, language changed to be gender inclusive in several spots… did I attend a Catholic Mass?
 
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MICATH:
I attended Mass yesterday at St. John Vianney in Saginaw. No entrance procession, the pastor was seated with the congregation, not in the sanctuary, however the choir and fidgety choir director were prominent behind the altar and ambo. No tabernacle in site, there was a small crucifix. Father proclaimed the gospel then introduced a member of the “lay preaching” ministry for the homily. Green altar linens, illicit hosts, no chalice in site, hosts on wooden plates with cloth napkins and precious blood in wine goblets. The entire congregation chanted the doxology to the Eucharistic prayer, language changed to be gender inclusive in several spots… did I attend a Catholic Mass?
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You know, does it strike anyone the way it does me that wouldn’t these people be considering toning it down just a tad, due to the new bishop coming???!!! You would think they would not want to be so obviously unorthodox when they know an orthodox bishop will be here very soon? I think it’s almost scary. Why? Because it means a) they don’t care, b) they think he won’t care, or c) they are completely unaware to the fact that they are being so disobedient, which tells me they don’t know - or care to know - any of the GIRM or canon law or anything that any of us can so easily know. All three are very disturbing choices.
 
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MICATH:
I attended Mass yesterday at St. John Vianney in Saginaw. No entrance procession, the pastor was seated with the congregation, not in the sanctuary, however the choir and fidgety choir director were prominent behind the altar and ambo. No tabernacle in site, there was a small crucifix. Father proclaimed the gospel then introduced a member of the “lay preaching” ministry for the homily. Green altar linens, illicit hosts, no chalice in site, hosts on wooden plates with cloth napkins and precious blood in wine goblets. The entire congregation chanted the doxology to the Eucharistic prayer, language changed to be gender inclusive in several spots… did I attend a Catholic Mass?
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Your post made my skin crawl. I wonder how St. John Vianney would view his namesake parish… 😦
 
Detroit Sue:
Your post made my skin crawl. I wonder how St. John Vianney would view his namesake parish… 😦
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The lack of charity in your posts is somewhat disturbing. I highly doubt that a Catholic Saint looks down on churches under their patronage and cares too much where the priest is sitting.

It’s so interesting to me that these debates always end up with many people making claims that are impossible to back up, and even more impossible to refute.

Until the promulgation of the new GIRM, it was the local bishop who was moderator of the word and had the ability to approve/disapprove preachers. That has now been clarified as a negative from rome for whatever reason (and I often think it’s due to that very weak “clericalization of the laity” argument).

Regardless, Bishop Ken was waiting until the new Missal was published before putting many of these instructions into effect. As it stood, he passed away before anything could be done. The administrator of the diocese had no authority to correct or change anything, even if he had wanted to.

It’s amazing to me the things that “make people ill”. Having he word of God broken open for you by someone who doesn’t wear a collar “makes you ill”? Look, it’s fine to call it an abuse or illicit, but why not take the preaching at face value and listen for a message. Does it never dawn on a person that whomever is preaching might be saying exactly what someone in the pews needs to hear?

No, these things don’t happen because we have become so wrapped up in rubricsm and these wacky liturgy wars that it’s become a situation where one side has to win and one side has to lose.
 
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frommi:
The lack of charity in your posts is somewhat disturbing. I highly doubt that a Catholic Saint looks down on churches under their patronage and cares too much where the priest is sitting.
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MY lack of charity? Interesting.
It’s so interesting to me that these debates always end up with many people making claims that are impossible to back up, and even more impossible to refute.
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I haven’t seen anything in this thread with someone making claims they have been unable to back up, other than you.
Until the promulgation of the new GIRM, it was the local bishop who was moderator of the word and had the ability to approve/disapprove preachers. That has now been clarified as a negative from rome for whatever reason (and I often think it’s due to that very weak “clericalization of the laity” argument).
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Not true. The homilist has ALWAYS been required to be a priest or deacon. In other words - those ORDAINED to Holy Orders.
Regardless, Bishop Ken was waiting until the new Missal was published before putting many of these instructions into effect. As it stood, he passed away before anything could be done. The administrator of the diocese had no authority to correct or change anything, even if he had wanted to.
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This is a rather presumptuous statement, don’t you think? How do you know what he was waiting for? Untener was counting on the ignorance of his flock before he had to become obedient He knew exactly what he was doing.
It’s amazing to me the things that “make people ill”. Having he word of God broken open for you by someone who doesn’t wear a collar “makes you ill”? Look, it’s fine to call it an abuse or illicit, but why not take the preaching at face value and listen for a message. Does it never dawn on a person that whomever is preaching might be saying exactly what someone in the pews needs to hear?

No, these things don’t happen because we have become so wrapped up in rubricsm and these wacky liturgy wars that it’s become a situation where one side has to win and one side has to lose.
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Because that is not their place. There are rubrics for a reason. Have you ever considered that the GIRM was published for the sake of UNITY among the clergy? It’s the guys who were disobedient who are having trouble with this. This is not a war. This is Catholicism. You are either Catholic or you are not. You are faithful to the Magisterium or you are not. It’s very simple, really.
 
Detroit Sue:
This is a rather presumptuous statement, don’t you think? How do you know what he was waiting for? Untener was counting on the ignorance of his flock before he had to become obedient He knew exactly what he was doing.

This is not a war. This is Catholicism. You are either Catholic or you are not. You are faithful to the Magisterium or you are not. It’s very simple, really.
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I am Catholic…I just happen to believe in the authority of a local bishop (or even bishop’s conference) to do things that make pastoral sense.

And I did NOT make a presumptious statement…that was a recording played at every mass in Saginaw during Advent 2003 when the Bishop said (and I quote) “We need to do better at liturgy, we need to raise the bar”.
 
I am sorry you think my claims that are impossible to back up, and impossible to refute, but they are true.

On the chance that they are true, don’t we all see a problem here?

These are issues that have been ignored for years… why would we think they would correct themselves with the new Missal? Most of these issues were problems under the old Missal and never addressed.
 
I think that Bishop Carlson, who will be installed in 30 days ( ! ), will be fully in charge and I will wait to see what he does. My expectations were high, but now I have no expectations. I would rather be pleasantly surprised.

If lay people can preach at Mass, I’d like to be first in line. Where do I sign up?

If we don’t need church buildings as we used to know them, I think I would go along with using vacant buildings, store fronts, etc. and the clergy can live among the poor. The money donated to churches would be well spent on the poor, abused, homeless, etc. Untener sold the Bishop’s residence. It’s now time to take the next step and tear down the churches. We can even go underground, maybe some catacombs around here. Let’s not be bound to those shallow 400-year-old traditions of Trent. Let’s take Christianity back to the trenches. Where are those lions? Let the persecutions begin.
 
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frommi:
Regardless, Bishop Ken was waiting until the new Missal was published before putting many of these instructions into effect.
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No, these things don’t happen because we have become so wrapped up in rubricsm and these wacky liturgy wars that it’s become a situation where one side has to win and one side has to lose.
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FromMI,

Why would anyone “wait” to see what was already published in 2002 GIRM and other very clear documents like Redemptionis Sacramentum?

Why do you not seem to care for keeping the Mass sacred?

Why is a “wacky liturgy war” not a battle for what is most sacred on this Earth – the reverent and most holy consecration of the bread and wine transsubstantiated before our eyes into the very presence of the Son?

How can you reasonably minimize the very presence of Jesus?

In adoration,
Scapular
 
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