Bishop Robert Carlson - Sioux Falls

[MBS1]

Fr. Todd, glad to see you still care enough to keep in touch. Since the subject of baptism came up - please note the description from Zaradawn2:

“she held this baby over a large bowl of Holy Water and dipped her in three times”

This is the only method of baptism I have seen in 15 years in this diocese. There is no pouring water on the head of the child, but essentially their butt is dunked three times. The priest does say In the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, etc., which I know is correct. I’ve always been curious. Would you have any idea or comment about the validity of butt-dunking baptism. For all the children, I pray it is valid (I honestly don’t know). In my parents and other dioceses, I’ve only seen water poured on the infants head, not the dipping. Even my Lutheran friend says that’s how they baptize in his church (pouring the water). Interestingly, when I have seen adults baptized here, water is poured from a pitcher over their heads, so it is a bit different than infants. Any thoughts? God Bless.
MBS1
MBS1

 

[Illini]

zaradawn2:

Lorraine is the administrator and she held this baby over a large bowl of Holy Water and dipped her in three times as she had invited the whole community to recite the words of baptism. Father Don, who is more than capable, stood over her shoulder and watched. . . . He is such a wonderful priest that when I asked how he can let this go on, he grinned and said his hands were tied. I assume his “lesser of two evils” in this circumstance would be to do what he can until someone of greater power comes to fix it than to have the church close its doors because it doesn’t have a full time priest.

Can. 861 sec. 1. The ordinary minister of baptism is a bishop, a presbyter, or a deacon, without prejudice to the prescript of can. 530 n. 1 [entrusting baptism to a pastor].

   sec. 2. *When an ordinary minister is absent or impeded,* a catechist or another person designated for this function by the local ordinary, or *in a case of necessity* any person with the right intention, confers baptism licitly. Pastors of souls, especially the pastor of a parish, are to be concerned that the Christian faithful are taught the correct way to baptize.

(emphasis added).

 How can anyone think the baptism described by zaradawn is proper? It's too bad that the priest has no ability to exercise even sacramental functions proper to him. Wouldn't be "pastoral." These actions are not just a clear violation of the law; they obscure an essential function of the clergy.

 With the lack of respect shown to priests' liturgical functions, it's little wonder that Saginaw has so few vocations. Bishop Carlson really has his work cut out for him.

-Illini

 

[psalm90]

MBS1:

Would you have any idea or comment about the validity of butt-dunking baptism.

This is not Fr. Todd here, but I’d like wager a guess. I’m sure there’s a precise answer from a liturgical and rubrical point of view.

What does the water represent? My hunch is, it is pointing back to the condemnation of mankind during the flood of Noah’s time. According to the story, mankind was wiped off the earth, except for Noah and his family, and the animals, in the ark.

I think the ritual baths near the temple in Jerusalem and now Christian baptism with water is, among other things, reminding us of the guilt of our sins, and that we are worth of God’s wrath. That’s very fundamentalistic in concept, but I think it’s true. Jesus is our Saviour, He saved us from the guilt of our sins. When He was baptized, and, He said He had to be baptized, He had the sign of God’s wrath poured on Him. That’s when He took on our sins.

But, of course, God later repented and said He would never destroy mankind again in that fashion. Then, and later, water took on the additional connotations of washing and cleansing.

But, my guess is that Fr. Todd will say that these baptisms were valid, as long as the water touched them. The water brings us up close with both covenants of salvation from God.

 

[zaradawn2]

FatherTodd:

Can you tell me what words they had you recite? Was it I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?

Or was it something else?

Father Todd, it was exactly that. It caught me so totally off guard I couldn’t even speak. Can I ask you a question now, I really like this parish but I don’t agree with what’s going on. Should I even be attending mass here, softening myself to what I feel is an abuse or should I take the extra time to go to Sacred Heart in Mt. Pleasant (ten more minutes in the car). Thanks for your time and (name removed by moderator)ut, God bless

 

[ekindermann]

zaradawn2:

I don’t agree with what’s going on. Should I even be attending mass here, softening myself to what I feel is an abuse or should I take the extra time to go to Sacred Heart in Mt. Pleasant (ten more minutes in the car). Thanks for your time and (name removed by moderator)ut, God bless

Hey Zaradawn,
I know I’m not Fr. Todd either, but just wondered if you saw all the discussion re: the illicit matter used to make the bread at Mt. P. Sacred Heart? But, that’s probably what it is in Rosebush, I guess??? Just thought, if you were thinking of moving to a different parish (due to abuses) you’d want to consider the other abuses as well.
Sorry to add more to your concren, but thought you’d wanna know.
Beth

 

[FatherTodd]

zaradawn2:

Father Todd, it was exactly that. It caught me so totally off guard I couldn’t even speak. Can I ask you a question now, I really like this parish but I don’t agree with what’s going on. Should I even be attending mass here, softening myself to what I feel is an abuse or should I take the extra time to go to Sacred Heart in Mt. Pleasant (ten more minutes in the car). Thanks for your time and (name removed by moderator)ut, God bless

I couldn’t advise you on this. I would suggest that you wait and see what Bishop Carlson has to say about things. He will soon be your shepherd. He is a faithful man.

 

[zaradawn2]

ekindermann:

Hey Zaradawn,
I know I’m not Fr. Todd either, but just wondered if you saw all the discussion re: the illicit matter used to make the bread at Mt. P. Sacred Heart? But, that’s probably what it is in Rosebush, I guess??? Just thought, if you were thinking of moving to a different parish (due to abuses) you’d want to consider the other abuses as well.
Sorry to add more to your concren, but thought you’d wanna know.
Beth

Sacred Heart in Mt. Pleasant uses the same host that is used in other diocese, flat whitish disks. It is St. Mary’s in Mt. Pleasant that uses the homemade bread. At Sacred Heart the only objecionable practice that I have noticed is allowing a nun to say the homily. However I haven’t been to a mass in my area where that isn’t allowed.

 

[ekindermann]

zaradawn2:

Sacred Heart in Mt. Pleasant uses the same host that is used in other diocese, flat whitish disks. It is St. Mary’s in Mt. Pleasant that uses the homemade bread. At Sacred Heart the only objecionable practice that I have noticed is allowing a nun to say the homily. However I haven’t been to a mass in my area where that isn’t allowed.

Thank You so much for correcting me, I had the two parishes mixed up! Sorry! I need to check my facts before I spout off! I’m relieved because since Bishop Carlson is coming to Sacred Heart on Feb. 27th, I was wondering what matter would be used for the bread.

We travel to either Our Lady of the Lake, in Prudenville or we go to Sanford, St. Agnes. If we can’t go that far due to weather or schedules we’ll go to St. Cecilia’s (Fr. Ryan is permitting lay persons to give the homilies sometimes, but I’ve managed to avoid that so far.) They at least use the proper matter for the Eucharist (same hosts that you describe above). By the way, what does St. Henry’s use?

So looking forward to Bishop Carlson’s installment. It’s especially difficult when you have children to raise Catholic. I can put up with a great deal, and still keep my faith, but my children are young and impressionable and I need to take them to a liturgy that I know is obedient, reverent, and loving. It is especially difficult as we are being deprived of the very thing that the disobedient parishes say they pride themselves on - “community”. My children and I are deprived of worshipping with their friends and neighbors, who are Catholic but who (either out of ignorance - mostly - or out of apathy or wrong thinking) continue to come to mass at this parish.

What is so upsetting to me is that they are being lied to. Deliberately lied to. Its one thing if these people want to be upfront about what they are doing…and just tell the folks, “We aren’t following the rules and here’s why.” then allow those who were ignorant to KNOW what they are doing and allow them to make a choice. But instead they have infiltrated and hijacked OUR Catholic churches.

Ok I’m calm, I’ll go now. :crying:

 

[Scapular]

Ekindermann,

I really fear that what you are saying is more pervasive. This was the case with the Saginaw prayer and the heterodoxy of God as “She” that was promulgated under B. Untener.

Jesus reveals the Father. Jesus refers to his Father some 170 times in the Gospels. And yet, some have had to pull their children from Catholic schools and from being exposed to the “she-god” heterodoxy.

This and people wonder why the Catholic schools are not full. Surely, the Catholics that have left to join the Evangelical Church are not facing the “she-god” heterodoxy as we do.

How do we formally dispose of the “Saginaw prayer”?

Thanks,
Scapular

 

[frommi]

Scapular:

Ekindermann,

I really fear that what you are saying is more pervasive. This was the case with the Saginaw prayer and the heterodoxy of God as “She” that was promulgated under B. Untener.

Jesus reveals the Father. Jesus refers to his Father some 170 times in the Gospels. And yet, some have had to pull their children from Catholic schools and from being exposed to the “she-god” heterodoxy.

This and people wonder why the Catholic schools are not full. Surely, the Catholics that have left to join the Evangelical Church are not facing the “she-god” heterodoxy as we do.

How do we formally dispose of the “Saginaw prayer”?

Thanks,
Scapular

If God created man and woman in the divine image…is it really that far fetched to assume that their is a feminine side to God?

Again Scapular, I appreciate your point, but don’t think this is an example of raging heterodoxy. If we start counting the number of times Jesus said something in the Gospel, then the reverse might have to be true (after all, he never mentions homosexuals…does that make everything the church teaches null and void?).

It may seem overly politically correct, and quite frankly I think the whole concept seems a little forced…but again, don’t think i can call it a heterdoxy.

 

[zaradawn2]

frommi:

If we start counting the number of times Jesus said something in the Gospel, then the reverse might have to be true (after all, he never mentions homosexuals…does that make everything the church teaches null and void?).

It may seem overly politically correct, and quite frankly I think the whole concept seems a little forced…but again, don’t think i can call it a heterdoxy.

It may not be in the Gospel but have you ever heard of Onan? (Genesis 38:6-10) One of the few people God ever struck dead for personally offending Him! Onan was to sleep with his brother’s widow and (at least try to) give her a child. He slept with her all right but when it came down to it WASTED his seed. Now in the terms of homomsexuality in relation to God and what He thinks and how He feels I don’t see how a seed could be more wasted.

Frommi, I had a hard time understanding which concept you feel is forced, a feminine side to God, that homosexuality is bad, or that it’s overly politically correct?

 

[frommi]

zaradawn2:

Frommi, I had a hard time understanding which concept you feel is forced, a feminine side to God, that homosexuality is bad, or that it’s overly politically correct?

I think using a feminine noun to describe God is something that can come across as forced, perhaps even unnecessary. However, I don’t think it’s heterodox to do so.

 

[FatherTodd]

It would be heterodox because the Church has ruled on it and said it is inappropriate. I am not speaking of Saginaw specifically since I have no knowledge of it. But it is important to remember that God has no gender. When a masculine pronount is used to describe God it isn’t describing God’s gender but rather a relationship to us.

In relation to God we all stand in the feminine because God initiates the love relationship with us and the only thing we can do before God is to receive. See JPII’s theology of the body for a more detailed explanation or check out a tape by Christopher West. You can also check this website for an answer I bet.

To say God is a male is incorrect. God has no gender per se. But to refer to God in the feminine also is incorrect. Both are at best heterodox at worst pagan.

frommi:

I think using a feminine noun to describe God is something that can come across as forced, perhaps even unnecessary. However, I don’t think it’s heterodox to do so.

 

[frommi]

FatherTodd:

To say God is a male is incorrect. God has no gender per se. But to refer to God in the feminine also is incorrect. Both are at best heterodox at worst pagan.

Might be one of the clearer explanations I’ve heard on the issue. I still believe (perhaps stubbornly so) that God is masculine and feminine and things like the Saginaw blessing simply try to draw that out and make it more real.

 

[zaradawn2]

I know that I read earlier in the posts somewhere that some of you were looking forward to seeing the new Bishop in Mt. Pleasant on the 27th. I went to Sacred Heart Sunday and Fr. Bob said they had to change the time he was to visit to the 9:00 mass so that Bishop Carlson could have time to greet as many people as possible. I don’t know weather he will remain in the church or go to the parish center for this. The parish center is right accross the street if that’s what happens. Looking forward to meeting him!

 

[ekindermann]

frommi:

I still believe (perhaps stubbornly so)

egggzzzaaaactly

 

[ekindermann]

zaradawn2:

I know that I read earlier in the posts somewhere that some of you were looking forward to seeing the new Bishop in Mt. Pleasant on the 27th. I went to Sacred Heart Sunday and Fr. Bob said they had to change the time he was to visit to the 9:00 mass so that Bishop Carlson could have time to greet as many people as possible. I don’t know weather he will remain in the church or go to the parish center for this. The parish center is right accross the street if that’s what happens. Looking forward to meeting him!

Thank you so much, zaradawn2, we were planning to go to meet him. We’ll plan to be there early!

 

[bknebel]

Wow.

The great people of Saginaw do not understand the great gift they are receiving.

I still don’t know to the fullest sense the great gift I am losing.

I would venture to say that Bishop Carlson IS the living miracle that has made my faith what it is.

Treat him well, people of Saginaw. We already know he is going to his own crucifixion becoming your shepherd and trying to straighten out the heresies Utener allowed.

May God go with him, and may his reception be well pleasing.

If you don’t want him, we’ll gladly take him back any day!

and Please, pray for him. As I said, we all know he is walking into his own Calvary. Poor Bishop Carlson. May he truly be given comfort in this challening ministry.

I am very very sad and have spent many an hour crying. I received a letter from Bishop last week as a final farewell from him and I cried. I cry today knowing he is going to be met with quite a bit of opposition.

Please, you good people of Saginaw, become his friends and help him fight the wrongs that are there!

I will forever hold Romans 8:28 as my motto:

“For we know that all things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to His purpose.”

Amen, So be it.

 

[singerlady]

Bknebel -
Please rest assured that there are those of us in the Saginaw Diocese who have been praying for just such a bishop as Bishop Carlson. He most certainly has his work cut out for him. We have him in constant prayer.

 

[singerlady]

frommi:

Might be one of the clearer explanations I’ve heard on the issue. I still believe (perhaps stubbornly so) that God is masculine and feminine and things like the Saginaw blessing simply try to draw that out and make it more real.

Of course you are free to believe whatever you want, but when that belief is forced on me in the form of the Saginaw blessing, then I get a bit testy. A major problem, for me, with the “Saginaw” blessing is that it is a perversion of the “Aaronic” blessing. A piece of Scripture has been co-opted to fit an agenda. The 2 verses directly before the Aaronic blessing say “The Lord said to Moses: 'Speak to Aaron and his sons and tell them: This is how you shall bless the Israelites.” The Lord is pretty specific, and He doesn’t add a second verse.