Bishop Robert Carlson - Sioux Falls

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Frommi-

C’mon. I’m not trying to torture you people out there and make it seem like the diocese of Saginaw is the Devil’s cradle, but I must say that from what I can see, namely the ugliness that has been done to the cathedral that work needs to be done.

I will agree that what matters most is the faithfullness of the people and such.

For all of you in Saginaw- My apologies if calling Saginaw Bishop Carlson’s “Calvary” has been taken very personally, which it should have been- the people out there have not followed the church on many instances- including having stupid liturgical dances and ruining a cathedral.

SJV man- please email me- knebe307@wolves.northern.edu. I wanna know who’s following him and such, and which priest is doing the Latin Mass. Fr. JP Morgan is here in Aberdeen and he has done partial Latin Masses for the College community, including one daily Mass nearly completely in Latin.
 
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bknebel:
For all of you in Saginaw- My apologies if calling Saginaw Bishop Carlson’s “Calvary” has been taken very personally, which it should have been- the people out there have not followed the church on many instances- including having stupid liturgical dances and ruining a cathedral.
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You probably have some idea of how hard it was not to stand up and cheer every time Bishop Carlson talked about the kind of bishop he would be for Saginaw. I loved Bishop Untener. I prayed for him daily. I didn’t agree with much of what he did, but I always perceived him as a man of deep faith.

My prayer for the new bishop is that he will find love and obedience here in Saginaw from his priests and his flock.

My heart goes out to you in Sioux Falls. But how blessed you were to have had such a bishop.
 
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cdwiseman:
What bishops were at the Installation Mass yesterday? I just saw photos and video segments on abc12.com

I’m pretty sure I got a glimpse of Bishop Cooney (Gaylord) there. Of course Cardinal Maida…

I did watch an interview online at abc12.com about Bishop Carlson. He celebrated a Mass for students at Nouvel High School in Saginaw. I saw two photos from that Mass and hosts were not used… instead “real bread”… Also, glass vessels were used…

That I do not understand…would he not have known/and or mentioned to whomever is setting up for the Mass that he would not use invalid matter? Unless it was bread made as the rubrics allow - just wheat and water?

He has a lot do to in Saginaw but with prayers and support… he will get the job done…
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frommi:
Anyone else watching the webcast?

I wish these people would just pipe down…how did they not know which person was the cardinal?
They keep jabbering on and on and on and on…
Just in case anyone is wondering…the commentator on the webcast is not from the diocese of saginaw.
I would rather not have people harranguing the lack of catechesis in some of the stuff that’s being said.
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Chuckle, thanks for that clarification! I was wondering. That webcast was downright painful. Of course, Harrison seemed to be the only city NOT getting it on Ch. 99 like the diocese said it would be. 😦 I WAS SO BUMMED! I gathered the kids all around the computer screen and we watched the webcast. The announcers were awful. They would not shut up.
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saggal:
I’m sorry for those of you who could only watch the webcast. That station (WNEM) just doesn’t get it. They blabbed all the way through Bishop Untener’s funeral as well. It’s as if they think that liturgical silence is dead airtime that needs to be filled with inane comments.

I was blessed to have watched (and taped) the coverage from WJRT, which is far better. They respect viewers enough to know that not everything needs words. Plus, they had a priest from the Diocese of Lansing who gently put things in perspective.
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What are the chances that you’d sell a copy or two? I promised bknebel that I’d send him a copy - then I wasn’t able to tape it. I’d love a copy, too.

Beth
 
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singerlady:
Yesterday’s Mass was very much toned down from what we have been doing. I am thinking that the Sioux Falls people didn’t think so. I couldn’t believe we did the Saginaw Blessing. It seemed more of an “in your face” statement than a blessing.

This makes me sad and fearful, how dare they? Was it the choir? Aren’t you part of it, or didn’t you know it was planned? As I asked earlier about the bread at the high school celebration over which he presided…could he not have arranged ahead of time to not use that? How much say will he have over these “abuses” - frommi - do not write me back and tell me they aren’t abuses - you & I have been there, done that, don’t want to go through it all again with you. 😉 I sure hope they don’t do that stuff this weekend at Sacred Heart in Mt. Pleasant.

You could tell that the Sioux Falls contingent was very much in grief mode. I can only imagine their sorrow at losing such a great leader - and to a diocese that appears to not want such a man. But, we have some wonderful priests serving in our diocese - men who want to love their bishop and who will stand behind Bishop Carlson.
Unfortunately I haven’t met any of them and so I will have to take your word on this one…
I am confident that all of this is being orchestrated by the Holy Spirit and that the diocese of Saginaw is going to thrive!
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To that I must agree and pray that we all stay open to His will.
Beth
 
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ekindermann:
C
What are the chances that you’d sell a copy or two? I promised bknebel that I’d send him a copy - then I wasn’t able to tape it. I’d love a copy, too.

Beth
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The diocese sold copies of Bishop’s Unteners funeral…I would think they’ll do the same with the installation. Call the office of communications
 
Just for the record…the Saginaw blessing is based on the blessing of Aaron from the old testament…it’s also one of the approved formulas for a solemn blessing at the end of mass. The use of feminine pronouns may be up for some theological debate, but I don’t think it’s neccesairly an abuse…and keep in mind that it was done prior the beginning of the liturgy.
 
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bknebel:
Frommi-

C’mon. I’m not trying to torture you people out there and make it seem like the diocese of Saginaw is the Devil’s cradle, but I must say that from what I can see, namely the ugliness that has been done to the cathedral that work needs to be done.

I will agree that what matters most is the faithfullness of the people and such.
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The cathedral was renovated prior to Bishop Untener’s ordination, and whether or not you personally “like” that space, it’s a liturgical space and it’s the cathedral seat of the diocese, and should be respected as such. If the new Bishop wants to adjust the layout, more power to him.

I still find it difficult to understand why the assumption is that Bishop Carlson is taking over some under-educated, misinformed flock. It’s a shame that the picture of Saginaw for the people of Sioux Falls is that of a bunch of catholic hillbillies who need shaping up.

I understand you are in mourning about the loss of a great spiritual leader. But it does not help the situation when you make statements about the “work the bishop has in front of him”. All bishops have great work in front of them…Bishop Untener left much undone when he passed away. People are all excited about Bishop Carlson’s committment to authentic Catholic teaching, and have not taken the time to realize that Bishop Untener’s last pastoral letter dealt wholly with Catholic education in the diocese and his plans for it, he intended for it to be the focus of his remaining years as Bishop.

I highly doubt that Sioux Falls is a Catholic utopia…but I’m sure it’s a prayerful, warm, and welcoming place.

I’m frankly tired of the polarization caused by such insane remarks as “calvary” or “abuses”…any one of them just upsets me. And it upsets me because when you do it you question the integrity of my own Catholic education (and I think I know more than the average bear), and the formation I received in music and liturgy from some very very good priests and nuns.

The people of Saginaw are faithful. Just as those in Sioux Falls.

Anyone making irresponsible statements about other Catholics ought to be ashamed.
 
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frommi:
The diocese sold copies of Bishop’s Unteners funeral…I would think they’ll do the same with the installation. Call the office of communications
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good idea, thanks.
 
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frommi:
Just for the record…the Saginaw blessing is based on the blessing of Aaron from the old testament…it’s also one of the approved formulas for a solemn blessing at the end of mass. The use of feminine pronouns may be up for some theological debate, but I don’t think it’s neccesairly an abuse…and keep in mind that it was done prior the beginning of the liturgy.
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Yes, it is taken from the Aaronic blessing from the book of Numbers. Interestingly, the preceding verses have God telling Moses exactly how Aaron is to bless the people. As I said in an earlier post, God was very specific - and the blessing had only one verse.

Beth, I am in the choir. I sang the blessing only once - in the way that God told Moses to have Aaron do it. The lead in to the blessing was rather weak. To me it had an “in your face, this is who we are, deal with it” quality.
 
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frommi:
Just for the record…the Saginaw blessing is based on the blessing of Aaron from the old testament…it’s also one of the approved formulas for a solemn blessing at the end of mass. The use of feminine pronouns may be up for some theological debate, but I don’t think it’s neccesairly an abuse…and keep in mind that it was done prior the beginning of the liturgy.
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Now, I told you not to do this…

You say:

The use of feminine pronouns may be up for some theological debate, but I don’t think it’s neccesairly an abuse…and keep in mind that it was done prior the beginning of the liturgy.

but then you say:

frankly tired of the polarization caused by such insane remarks as “calvary” or “abuses”…any one of them just upsets me. And it upsets me because when you do it you question the integrity of my own Catholic education (and I think I know more than the average bear), and the formation I received in music and liturgy from some very very good priests and nuns.

The people of Saginaw are faithful. Just as those in Sioux Falls.

Anyone making irresponsible statements about other Catholics ought to be ashamed.

You are too funny. So, it might be wrong, but…its ok because it was done before Mass…and then you defend your Catholic education…And you get “upset” but YOU will deride those of us who insist that rules are made for a reason and they should be respected and followed…like we are making mountains out of molehills and what’s all the fuss??? But then you are indignant and offended?! Yes, the calvary comment does sting a little, but it is the truth. The truth sometimes hurts. It doesn’t take away the good that Bishop Untener did, but also his good works don’t erase his … thinking of a word that won’t “offend” too much…dissension.
 
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ekindermann:
Now, I told you not to do this…

You say:

The use of feminine pronouns may be up for some theological debate, but I don’t think it’s neccesairly an abuse…and keep in mind that it was done prior the beginning of the liturgy.

but then you say:

frankly tired of the polarization caused by such insane remarks as “calvary” or “abuses”…any one of them just upsets me. And it upsets me because when you do it you question the integrity of my own Catholic education (and I think I know more than the average bear), and the formation I received in music and liturgy from some very very good priests and nuns.

The people of Saginaw are faithful. Just as those in Sioux Falls.

Anyone making irresponsible statements about other Catholics ought to be ashamed.

You are too funny. So, it might be wrong, but…its ok because it was done before Mass…and then you defend your Catholic education…And you get “upset” but YOU will deride those of us who insist that rules are made for a reason and they should be respected and followed…like we are making mountains out of molehills and what’s all the fuss??? But then you are indignant and offended?! Yes, the calvary comment does sting a little, but it is the truth. The truth sometimes hurts. It doesn’t take away the good that Bishop Untener did, but also his good works don’t erase his … thinking of a word that won’t “offend” too much…dissension.
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Beth…you have to understand, I take no issue with how Bishop Carlson will do things…I have never expected a new bishop to be some kind of untener-clone. My point is that whether people want to go with it or not, the bishop is the chief liturgist of the diocese. Ken Untener did things one way, Robert Carlson will more than likely do them another way.

What I was taking great great umbrage with was the idea that Bishop Carlson was being martyred by having to leave his idyllic community of Sioux Falls to go cast out demons in Saginaw, Michigan.

There will always be challenges. I worked very hard around there for a number of years, and don’t recall abusing anyone’s right to sound liturgy.

Regardless, I don’t think anyone has the right to base an opinion on the prayer life of 100,000 catholics on the positioning of a cathedra or because they think their Bishop has been sent to save us.

I stand by prior statements, the people of the Church of Saginaw are good Catholics and pray very very well.
 
Thank you, EKindermann. I am glad that I am not totally shutout by the good michigonians. I agree, Frommi, that my comments may have been rather harsh, but I am sorry. I don’t doubt that good came from Bishop Utener, but that doesn’t cover up for the dissention that has been present for a few years.

I apologize for any harm I have done or any threat I have been posing. I do pray for all of you for the good of your diocese and the future blessings that can come from your hard work, and the cooperation with the bishop!

I’ll pray for all of you and I hope that your future is bright! God Bless!
 
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bknebel:
I apologize for any harm I have done or any threat I have been posing. I do pray for all of you for the good of your diocese and the future blessings that can come from your hard work, and the cooperation with the bishop!

I’ll pray for all of you and I hope that your future is bright! God Bless!
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bknebel - I have appreciated your posts. I hope this last one isn’t a good-bye. Many of us who are of the conservative bent have more or less been encouraged to keep our mouths shut, not by Bishop Untener, but by those who think every decision he made was the right one. This forum has been a breath of fresh air for some who have had to swallow a lot of things we didn’t agree with - and not only had to swallow them, but had to do it with a smile on our faces.
 
How sad to hear words flung about as weapons! To call the cathedral “ugly” when it is a space where many people choose to come and worship together - there is a real meanness in that. To call Saginaw a “calvery” has the same cruel edge. I was in the Cathedral yesterday - and while there were some moments of awkwardness - there was mostly a spirit of joy and praise. When Bishop sat down in his chair for the first time and was “installed”, there was a spontaneous burst of applause that was heartfelt. I am new to this forum, but I would hope that we would share our views in ways that suggest that they will know we are Christians by the way we work, walk, and speak…
 
Singerlady-

Amen to you. I’m so glad you feel that way. Bishop Carlson will, hopefully, continue to make you happy.

Jimmie- welcome to the forums. I see your grief and your angst against my comments, but the truth remains- whether or not a liturgical space is good or bad, or as my opinion has been- ugly, that remains just that, my opinion, but again, the GIRM and the Vatican have said repeatedly that how we respect our worship spaces is how we respect the Lord. Placing the altar and liturgical furniture as they are is a good arrangement to bring it closer to the people, but just seems so ill-functioning from what I have seen. Correct me if i’m wrong.

To all of you in Michigan- Enjoy your new bishop and the glorious times you are having now! smile, you now have the best bishop ever, and will soon become the best diocese anywhere! I do envy you getting Bishop Carlson, but I also extend my blessings to you. As I have said repeatedly, Treat him well!

Here’s my question to all of you now: Tell us all more about your diocese so that we can be enlightened. How many vocations have been coming in, how many orthodox religious orders?(nuns not giving homilies, acting like priests, etc) and what is the state of Orthodox Catholic Youth Ministry and Education in the Diocese?

Here’s another question I pose- how many of your churches have their tabernacle where they belong- in the sanctuary and in the central location?

GOD BLESS!
 
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bknebel:
Here’s my question to all of you now: Tell us all more about your diocese so that we can be enlightened. How many vocations have been coming in, how many orthodox religious orders?(nuns not giving homilies, acting like priests, etc) and what is the state of Orthodox Catholic Youth Ministry and Education in the Diocese?

Here’s another question I pose- how many of your churches have their tabernacle where they belong- in the sanctuary and in the central location?

GOD BLESS!
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The following religious orders are represented in the diocese:
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[/indent] As far as vocations go…no one will tell you it hasn’t been an ongoing struggle…I believe there’s been about 5 ordinations in the last 7 years (or thereabouts). Currently 3 seminarians are studying for the diocese. It was not one of the Bishop Ken’s greatest strengths, and most recognize that. I don’t think it had much to do with orthodoxy however…in all the years he was bishop there were something like 2 priests who he rejected but went on to ordination for other diocese/orders. Not defending the vocations track record…just offering some exposition on it.

I think the catholic education in the diocese is pretty strong and is taught in line with the catholic faith. I went to catholic schools for twelve years and was taught church history, principles of death and dying, the sacraments.

The sacraments of initiation have been restored to the proper order (baptism, confirmation, then eucharist).

As far as tabernacles go…some churches have private chapels, some have the tabernacle in the main worship space…pretty much a matter of where you go.
 
Sacraments in the proper order! yay! you got one over us in SD then! When was that instituted? and does that mean that confirmation happens at a younger age?
 
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bknebel:
Sacraments in the proper order! yay! you got one over us in SD then! When was that instituted? and does that mean that confirmation happens at a younger age?
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Gosh…that happened years ago…I was one of the last to be confirmed in high school and that was 1993…I’d say by 94 the restoration of the order had started…it’s pretty much in full swing now. In most cases confirmation happens in 2nd grade. Students are confirmed and receive first eucharist at the same mass.
 
Well, in that case then I agree with Utener’s Legacy! I have seen the Bishop of Fargo, Samuel Aquila (who is now our Apostolic Administrator) change their order and I believe the fruits will be many.

What is your thought on it?
 
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