Bishop Robert Carlson - Sioux Falls

[frommi]

singerlady:

You’re painting with a rather wide brush. Considering how disturbed a lot of us are with what has been going on in this diocese and the length of time we have been more or less told to “stuff it” in the interest of unity and harmony, I think the discussion has been fairly civil.

No one said they expected Bishop Carlson to come in here with “crozier’s a blazin,” but since YOU mention it, that surely would be something to see.

Fair enough…but won’t it be interesting when people who disagree with you are equally disturbed and are told to “stuff it” for the same reasons?

Will you remember how you’ve allegedly felt disenfranchised and react in kind, or will you be standing on your holy mountain giving priests gold stars for using gold chalices instead of pewter and other strangely trivial matters.

 

[singerlady]

frommi:

Fair enough…but won’t it be interesting when people who disagree with you are equally disturbed and are told to “stuff it” for the same reasons?

Will you remember how you’ve allegedly felt disenfranchised and react in kind, or will you be standing on your holy mountain giving priests gold stars for using gold chalices instead of pewter and other strangely trivial matters.

I have never treated anyone that way. I would not rejoice in anyone being treated that way. We have documentation and the vote of 2000 bishops telling us how things are to be done.
Pewter would be an upgrade over what we are using in our parish. I don’t appreciate being told that I am on a “holy mountain” because I think the GIRM should be followed. I have not called you names, but you are free to imply that I am on my high horse. A bit of a double standard, don’t you think? I give gold stars to priests who act like priests. I give gold stars to priests who behave the same on the altar as they do on the street. I give gold stars to priests with whom I can have a conversation without said priests using gutter language. I give gold stars to priests for whom the Liturgy is a means to an end and not an end in itself. I give gold stars to priests who are so in love with their ministry that they inspire others to become priests. We had such a pastor. He is one of only a few I could say the same about in this diocese.

 

[ekindermann]

Frommi, I admit to having “issues” HOWEVER YOU brought up snakes and it was a door I couldn’t pass up. It was intended as a joke since you were smart alecky in your posts (which I hope you will have the honesty to admit you were), I followed suit and was smart alecky in return. I apologize, I know you are not a snake.
Now, as to the "level of discourse"and lack of charity I would like to look back at your posts to give examples of how you goad someone like myself into defending concerns about the state of things in our diocese and parishes then you come back with what appears to be a keen awareness of ALL the issues and furthermore a great defense of ALL of them.
#1 You say you weren’t trying to come off as an innocent inquirer…here’s a quote of yours from way back when this list began:
Frankly, I’ve never understood what all the hullabaloo was about. I attended mass in Midland on Christmas Eve at St. Brigid’s and found it to be very prayerful from beginning to end…nothing outside of the rubrics from what I observed.
and another of your first quotes:
Interesting…I went to mass there and received a host at every mass I went to. Are you sure were talking about the same parish? I’ve never seen a nun give a homily there, and I tend to visit there everytime I’m in Michigan, which is where I’m from (understanding the screen handle now FROMmi?)
and finally one more:
I will be the first to admit that many of the things some consider abuses do not bother me in the least. Frankly, when a parish only has one priest doing all the homilizing, I believe that a change in perspective from time to time is a healthy thing. I understand I’m casting aside a rubric, but I’m giving my personal opinion.
#2You have defended and argued on the side of: Bishop Untener’s style of leadership, all changes made by him in this diocese too numerous to list (you know what they are, so again, I won’t bother) any edgy topics that he spoke on (women’s roles, etc) right down to crosses without Christ’s body, no kneelers, lack of appropriate vessels, you name it, you defend it. He obviously has done no wrong in your eyes, and we are just intolerant, uneducated, not to mention uncharitable, people who have a problem with it all.

#3 You will be sarcastic and again provocative and then cry “uncharitable!” when you get it back.
Wow…are you ever misguided…
*Great…the Bishop’s first pastoral visit is to St. Mary’s Bay City…talk about a church in the middle of a culture war. The pastor has to stay on the altar for almost all of the closing song to… *
Once again, you display a lack of knowledge of the collegiality in which our church is modeled.
I’m sorry…are you considering yourself persecuted by the church of Saginaw?
*You’re the only one around here who has the personality of a 1950’s rectory housekeeper. *
*You continue to astound me with your short sighted willingness to declare that you are “Catholic” and no one else is unless they meet your misintrepreted standard *
*Will you remember how you’ve allegedly felt… *
*I’m just remembering the folks who were ready for him to show up crozier’s a blazin and take out all the “heresy”… *
Seeing as how this little black book is a reprint…were you offended by this 4 years ago?
*What is the big deal? *
Yeah, I’m sure a guy with a PhD in theology who had studies Yves Conger, Avery Dulles, etc. glazed right over at the undergrad who was questioning his devotion to God through kneeling.
I’m not sure these forums are large enough for your ego.
OK…it has been two weeks…have all the heretics been chased out of Saginaw like the snakes out of Ireland?
Did the Bishop bring in a construction company to reinstall kneelers throughout?
Are they having an “authenticity of the bread” bake off?
Come on…with as bad as things purportedly are…I would expect such an orthodox man to take of these grievous problems before worrying about things like keeping schools open…sheesh…
*Well…it’s been a week…have all the “liberals” left the diocese because they are “enemies” of the new bishop?Just wondering… *

 

[ekindermann]

frommi:

I guess I could do a better job of following the former bishop’s example…he was ill spoken of and spoke no evil in return…that’s probably why he didn’t respond to Beth’s letter.

Do you see how your mix of inquire/provoke, followed by obvious educated defense & rebuttal, with a dash of sarcasm and criticism thrown in has elicited the frustration on the part of myself? I know that not all of the above comments were levied against me, but your contempt for those of us who truly are very upset by the state of our diocese and our parishes is so upsetting so as to incite anger and yes, even namecalling, although it really was intended as tongue in cheek, since you brought up St. Patrick & all. Perhaps you are really unaware of how provocative you are…Once you apologized to me for your unintentional insensitivity, remjember? But somehow I wonder if you really are unaware??? You seem too smart for that.
*The last example I will cite is your final line about why he never responded to my letter. “*he was ill spoken of and spoke no evil in return…that’s probably why he didn’t respond to Beth’s letter.”
*I have said more than once that the letter was written with a great deal of prayer and kindness, many revisions and many tears and it took a great deal of my time and effort to write it to him. For you to so tritely dismiss it as you have done, inferring it was mean spirited or whatever is really very uncharitable. You are exhibiting the same behavior you claim to find so awful. Once again, I apologize for the snake comment. **I beg for St. Patrick’s intercession for all of us. We need it. *

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

ekindermann:
Beth, Is it Beth?

Your letter hurts me. No way should you ever let someone like this “frommi” bother you so much. Even if you were generally mistaken in your analysis of the diocesan problems(and, of course, you are not), I would tell you this.

It is not in our “Catholic laity job description” to take upon ourselves the problems that this person carries. When he, or anyone like him, dumps on you, just become really adept at following St. Padre Pio’s advoce: “Ask, hope, pray and don’t worry.” In the first place you can’t accomplish anything by letting unhappy people rub their negativism off on you. In the second place, the method, once ingrained, will work in all sorts of cases.

Finally, just tell yourself how wonderfully blessed you are not to have to go home to such a person. Perhaps someone else is not so fortunate!!

Much love,

Anna

 

[singerlady]

Anna, you are surely blessed by the Lord for being such a voice of compassion and peace. Your reply to Beth was so kind.

That having been said, I think the reason Beth and I continue to dialogue with FromMi is because his behavior is typical of those who have had the upper hand in this diocese for so long. You can’t reason with these people. That is not my purpose. It is rather to expose that behavior for what it is. I have a pastor who could very well be FromMi. He micromanages every single action in the Mass. The GIRM isn’t good enough. He is one of those for whom liturgy is an end in itself. I used to leave Mass uplifted and refreshed for the week ahead - even in the light of recurring abuse of the GIRM. Now I leave wondering what I’m going to get nailed for next. I find myself doing more and more of my work at home and leaving church as soon as possible to avoid talking to him. He knows everything and you can tell him nothing, even if he were to listen to you. He would be very surprised to know the effect he is having on those who work with him. I believe that deep down he has a good heart and would be mortified to know how he is perceived - as an immature smart-aleck. I’m wondering about those who had a hand in his formation. There are many like him in this diocese. He remarked to me after Bishop Carlson’s installation that the Sioux Falls priests were very different from the Saginaw priests. It never occurred to him to wonder why there are so many more priests being ordained in Sioux Falls.

I have always said that I would never stay at or leave a parish because of the priest. I am close to changing my thinking on that. The only thing that keeps me going is that my ministry makes me feel closer to the Lord. There are a few people who say that what I do makes a difference for them on Sunday morning. Those are the people I serve. (I’m winking at one of them because I know she is reading this.)

Until I found this board, I was feeling like I was the only one in this diocese who felt this way. Even if Beth has no effect on Frommi, her postings have let me know that there are others out there besides the handful I’ve found in our parish, who believe that we have strayed far from the path. Those who have led us there say that they are “progressive” and “forward thnking.” They talk about the hope that this bishop won’t take us “backward.” I don’t see that we’ve progressed anywhere. I think rather than moving forward, we have taken a huge leap off the path.

 

[Grandin]

Singerlady,

Be of good cheer–YOU ARE NOT ALONE

Grandin

 

[psalm90]

frommi:

I would agree with you singerlady…and frankly, I think there are some very talented priests in the diocese as well…so it should be a good fit.

I think there’s a 98% probability that frommi is a priest in the Saginaw diocese.

I’m not sure “talented” priests are what the diocese needs, although some training in singing wouldn’t hurt, would it?

 

[singerlady]

psalm90:

I’m not sure “talented” priests are what the diocese needs, although some training in singing wouldn’t hurt, would it?

Yeah, they don’t have to learn Latin anymore. Seems like that would free up some time. Music is much easier to learn. At least that’s what non-musicians tell me.

 

[psalm90]

singerlady:

That having been said, I think the reason Beth and I continue to dialogue with FromMi is because his behavior is typical of those who have had the upper hand in this diocese for so long. You can’t reason with these people.

Dear S.L. I’m quite certain frommi is actually a priest in the diocese, which just validates your remark above.

I say don’t bother with dialog. Let Bishop Carlson do his stuff, give him a chance, as he said from all the way out west in S.D. before he moved here. By “chance” I mean five to ten years.

Don’t bother with frommi, it will do no good. Just go to one of those meetings with Bishop Carlson and pray, pray, pray.

Please note how Card. Maida stole the show at Bishop Carlson’s installation by bringing his own kneeler. What a shot at the architecture and furnishing of the cathedral and the Mass rubrics left over.

 

[singerlady]

Grandin:

Singerlady,

Be of good cheer–YOU ARE NOT ALONE

Grandin

Thanks, Grandin. Glad to know you’re out there.

 

[singerlady]

psalm90:

Dear S.L. I’m quite certain frommi is actually a priest in the diocese, which just validates your remark above.

I just went back and checked the thread. Frommi was posting during the installation, so I doubt that he is priest. As far as I know, all the Saginaw priests were at the installation. However, he could be a former priest.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

singerlady:

Anna, you are surely blessed by the Lord for being such a voice of compassion and peace. Your reply to Beth was so kind.

Dear singerlady, I’m afraid you give me too much credit for being kind! In effect, it just hurts me to see good people being railroaded by others, especially when they keep trying to reply, but to no avail. Mostly, I want them to respond in the way that I would, and, sad to say, that wouldn’t be characterized as “kind” so much as “sophisticatedly indifferent.” (I have been told that “indifference” is a sin, but it sure is handy at times!)

That having been said, I think the reason Beth and I continue to dialogue with FromMi is because his behavior is typical of those who have had the upper hand in this diocese for so long. You can’t reason with these people. That is not my purpose. It is rather to expose that behavior for what it is.

Yes, you are so right, and that is all to the good. The problem here is that it is hurting Beth. I do hope she will see that the more often he posts, the more he divulges about himself. And it’s not pretty. OTOH, it’s true that it is good for both you and Beth to know that so many others are in agreement.

I have a pastor who could very well be FromMi… . There are many like him in this diocese. He remarked to me after Bishop Carlson’s installation that the Sioux Falls priests were very different from the Saginaw priests. It never occurred to him to wonder why there are so many more priests being ordained in Sioux Falls.

I am sure that it is little comfort to such priests to have to acknowledge the difference in both the type of priests and number of ordinands that are being ordained in conservative v-a-v liberal dioceses around the country. It must be an awful thing to realize that one has been preaching and teaching what is at best a watered-down Gospel. (see 1Cor 9:16), and that, besides, the train is passing one by!

I have always said that I would never stay at or leave a parish because of the priest. I am close to changing my thinking on that. The only thing that keeps me going is that my ministry makes me feel closer to the Lord. There are a few people who say that what I do makes a difference for them on Sunday morning. Those are the people I serve.

This is probably the best time to stay put. Last weekend I met a seminarian from Sioux Falls who referred to Bishop Carlson’s appontment as his Calvary, as other have done. Surely, changes will be made, and meanwhile you have those other people.

there say that they are “progressive” and “forward thnking.” They talk about the hope that this bishop won’t take us “backward.”

Nonsense!! If they were any of those things, they would have an original idea at least once in a while. Instead, they are “cookie-cutter” liberals who have been mouthing the “same old, same old” non-counter-cultural platitudes for decades. Even secular America is bored with the feel-good and trendy, the warm and the fuzzy, the always politically correct. “Thinking” (whether progressive, forward or anything else), is one activity in which they are not engaged. Rather, they are both destructive and boring.

From the above you can see that, sadly, I’m not helping Beth out of kindness, but rather from a thorough distaste for the frommis of this world and a deep (Yes! Yes! Uncharitable! There’s the operative word!) desire to “one-up” them! (Doubtless, a sin).

Exciting things are headed your way! God bless,

Anna

 

[bknebel]

Anna Elizabeth and others,

I noticed the comment here that ‘the sioux falls priests are so different from the saginaw priests’ and i’d sure hope so! they are Holy, Orthodox men! I pray that your priests can find that inside themselves as well. I pray that I can find Holy and Orthodox inside of myself as well, as a lay person! I know we all need it!

As far as FromMi and others, I offer my prayers for a unity between all of us and a genuine reconciliation and restoration of what Rome and our church have asked us to do. Sure glass, pewter and gold chalices seems like a trivial matter, but when it comes to a vessel to hold our Lord Truly Present, only the best should be.

St. John Vianney himself wore tatterred cassocks and the like, but for Mass, he only wore the best of vestments, not because it was for himself, but because it was for the Lord!

May your clergy return to the ways of ST. John Vianney and may both of our dioceses, Sioux Falls and Saginaw remember that this Lenten Season, God has asked us to return to him with our whole heart!

GOD BLESS!

 

[singerlady]

bknebel:

Anna Elizabeth and others,

I noticed the comment here that ‘the sioux falls priests are so different from the saginaw priests’ and i’d sure hope so! they are Holy, Orthodox men! I pray that your priests can find that inside themselves as well. I pray that I can find Holy and Orthodox inside of myself as well, as a lay person! I know we all need it!

It was my pastor that made the comment comparing the Sioux Falls priests and the Saginaw priests. He didn’t see it as an Orthodox/Progressive (he would never use the term heterodox). He saw it as a geographical difference. Sheesh! There are some who will never get it. However, we do have some very good priests in this diocese who have, I think, been suppressed lo these many years.

 

[frommi]

singerlady:

I just went back and checked the thread. Frommi was posting during the installation, so I doubt that he is priest. As far as I know, all the Saginaw priests were at the installation. However, he could be a former priest.

OK, for the record, I am not a priest, a former priest, nor am I in formation to be a priest (I suspect many of you are breathing a sigh of relief).

I do however, count among my mentors several of the priests of the Diocese of Saginaw who have served in cities like Bay City, Saginaw, and Midland. They taught me a good deal about liturgy and its histories and origins. I’ve had the good fortune of particpating as a musician at no fewer than 9 parishes in the Diocese of Saginaw. Many times I come back to Saginaw from my current residence because priests there have recognized my skills at pastoral music.

Hope this clears everything up.

 

[frommi]

psalm90:

Please note how Card. Maida stole the show at Bishop Carlson’s installation by bringing his own kneeler. What a shot at the architecture and furnishing of the cathedral and the Mass rubrics left over.

Wow…I wonder if he takes his own kneeler to Rome where there aren’t any in St. Peter’s…what a great way to take a shot at the pope.

 

[singerlady]

psalm90:

Don’t bother with frommi, it will do no good.

Taking your advice.

 

[frommi]

singerlady:

Taking your advice.

This I don’t understand…I didn’t think I did anything wrong around here…I don’t agree with people, and chose to say so…what’s wrong with that?

Are we that closed off to dialogue?

Yes, I used a bit of sarcasm when asking if the Bishop had made all these anticipated changes in two weeks or less.

However, in this forum I’ve had to endure people calling my home “calvary”, I’ve had to watch as clergy in the diocese are pretty much called unholy and heterodox, when neither is true in a general sense.

Why shouldn’t I defend these folks?

 

[bknebel]

FromMi,

Okay, my comment on the clergy was typed wrong. I didn’t mean that the Saginaw Diocese doesn’t have clergy that are Holy and orthodox, but just that The priests I know from here seem to radiate that throughout. I’ve seen priests where it doesn’t, and since I don’t know your clergy, it would be wrong of me to say that they aren’t Holy. I do pray that both of our Dioceses continue to increase their clergy numbers and that those in the ranks may deepen their own holiness.

The comments regarding Saginaw as Bishop Carlson’s ‘calvary’ was probably a ill-phrased analogy. All that was meant was that he would have his work cut out for him in certain areas and that those of us back here in South Dakota were told that he would be met with plenty of opposition. I am unsure whether or not he will, and I pray that he doesn’t. It would be super to find that the word floating around here about the people and atmosphere in the Diocese of Saginaw would be completely wrong and that there would be only the Holiest and best people there!

I really would hate to cause such a rift between us, FromMi, that someday if we would chance to meet, that a friendship would not be possible. Let’s remmeber that we are both here for a reason- that we are both genuinely concerned about Bishop Carlson and the Diocese of Saginaw. I also take this time to apologize for my comments regarding the Cathedral of St. Mary. It hit me at Mass this past sunday that if my home church were renovated in a similar style, it would bug me a lot, but yet it would be my church, and that would be that. I didn’t realize the stigma i was causing and I totally apologize.