Bishop Robert Carlson - Sioux Falls

[singerlady]

MBS1:

Seems to me to qualify as an infallible statement, has anyone else heard otherwise? (I can’t remember where I heard this called infallible, though).

MBS1

It certainly does sound like one. You may very well be right. Or he may have been strongly underscoring that this is church doctrine and not discipline.

 

[frommi]

singerlady:

It certainly does sound like one. You may very well be right. Or he may have been strongly underscoring that this is church doctrine and not discipline.

I do believe that the latter was the case, it still has not been held as an infallible statement, although my impression was it was about as close as one could come without using that particular teaching authority.

I’d like to clarify that when I mentioned there was a different between doctrine and discipline, the point I was trying to get at was that a bishop or priest who perhaps doesn’t agree with certain disciplines of the church is not by rule “heterodox”.

I think we can agree there is a difference between saying that Jesus is not present in the Eucharist and not having an issue with using glass chalices.

 

[singerlady]

frommi:

I’d like to clarify that when I mentioned there was a different between doctrine and discipline, the point I was trying to get at was that a bishop or priest who perhaps doesn’t agree with certain disciplines of the church is not by rule “heterodox”.

In theory, yes, I would agree, but I’ve found that when a priest has issues with the disciplines of the Church and bends them or changes them, this spills over into other areas. A heterodox priest is more likely disagree with certain disciplines than an orthodox priest.

I think we can agree there is a difference between saying that Jesus is not present in the Eucharist and not having an issue with using glass chalices.

Yes, there is a big difference, however, if one believes in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, it would seem that one would want to use the best vessels possible.

 

[BayCityRickL]

frommi:

Cathecism is pretty clear on infallibilty, its called the infalliable teaching authority of the magisterium, and is looked at as a gift from God. The Pope is not infalliable. In fact, I do not believe he was utilized the infalliable teaching authority of his chair at any point in his papacy.

This is actually part of what confuses a lot of catholics, who I think believe that everything the Pope says is “infalliable”, which is simply not correct.

There was a program on EWTN overnight that talked about the black and white issues of infallibility and the status of individuals who “dissent.” The upshot of which is that there is no dissent that is officially sanctioned.

The starting point is Lumen Gentium paragraph 25 in which not only is the infallibility of the pope on matters of faith and morals upheld, but that Catholics must assent to the ordinary magisterium with both external and internal assent.

There’s no such thing, therefore, as legitimate dissent on policies such as not ordaining women and not using artificial birth control methods. Taking stances against such studied positions simply brings upon oneself some level of excommunication. The word “heresy” aptly applies.

 

[frommi]

singerlady:

Yes, there is a big difference, however, if one believes in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, it would seem that one would want to use the best vessels possible.

Again, fair enough…but I think we stretch it too far when we say bad things about a presbyter because he feels waterford crystal is more noble than gold plated aluminum.

I’ve watched people get upset because they are invited to sit during gospel’s that are incredibly long. What’s more important, that the assembly be put in position to hear the word of God, or that they stand as a normative posture?

Part of the problem with the orthodoxy debate is that everyone wants to believe that the church will always stay the same and there isn’t need for constant exploration of the world around us and the way the church responds to that world.

 

[frommi]

BayCityRickL:

There was a program on EWTN overnight that talked about the black and white issues of infallibility and the status of individuals who “dissent.” The upshot of which is that there is no dissent that is officially sanctioned.

The starting point is Lumen Gentium paragraph 25 in which not only is the infallibility of the pope on matters of faith and morals upheld, but that Catholics must assent to the ordinary magisterium with both external and internal assent.

There’s no such thing, therefore, as legitimate dissent on policies such as not ordaining women and not using artificial birth control methods. Taking stances against such studied positions simply brings upon oneself some level of excommunication. The word “heresy” aptly applies.

There’s a big difference between asking questions of something, perhaps even praying for it to change…and openly defying it.

 

[msproule]

frommi:

I think we stretch it too far when we say bad things about a presbyter because he feels waterford crystal is more noble than gold plated aluminum.

Certainly there are more precious materials than gold, although I doubt many would agree that crystal fits this criterion. Regardless, how difficult is it for one entrusted to follow the Church’s regulations to do so regarding something so basic? If this happens due to lack of knowledge on the part of the priest, I pray that he learns of his error and makes the correction. If he violates the rules with full knowledge and intent, then there is a problem.

frommi:

Part of the problem with the orthodoxy debate is that everyone wants to believe that the church will always stay the same and there isn’t need for constant exploration of the world around us and the way the church responds to that world.

The problem with your argument about orthodoxy is that you assume that it is unopen to change. That argument would be applicable to some of the traditionalist movements but that is not what we are discussing. On the contrary, orthodoxy in this debate is about obedience to the Magisterium. As petty as these details may seem to you, modifying them to suit one’s interest is a serious matter.

 

[singerlady]

frommi:

Again, fair enough…but I think we stretch it too far when we say bad things about a presbyter because he feels waterford crystal is more noble than gold plated aluminum.

I haven’t heard any bad things said about presbyters who “feel” a certain way. It’s when they act on those “feelings” and rationalize those actions that the problems begin. This is when I am told things like, “you don’t know how to read the documents.” In many cases they get very defensive and behavior unbecoming a Christian, not to mention a priest, begins to emerge. In addition, I’ve been put in a position where I am having to violate items in the GIRM or lose my job. And it’s not enough that I have to do what the pastor says, I’m supposed to agree with it too - even if I don’t agree. I often get the feeling that whether or not God is honored by what we do is less important that a “perfect” liturgy.

 

[frommi]

singerlady:

I haven’t heard any bad things said about presbyters who “feel” a certain way. It’s when they act on those “feelings” and rationalize those actions that the problems begin. This is when I am told things like, “you don’t know how to read the documents.” In many cases they get very defensive and behavior unbecoming a Christian, not to mention a priest, begins to emerge. In addition, I’ve been put in a position where I am having to violate items in the GIRM or lose my job. And it’s not enough that I have to do what the pastor says, I’m supposed to agree with it too - even if I don’t agree. I often get the feeling that whether or not God is honored by what we do is less important that a “perfect” liturgy.

You may not want to answer this, but what types of things are you being asked to do?

 

[singerlady]

frommi:

You may not want to answer this, but what types of things are you being asked to do?

I don’t really want to go into too much detail due to wanting to protect my identity for job security reasons. One never knows who is reading these boards. One that really bugs me is his insistance that I lead the doxology.

 

[MrS]

singerlady:

I haven’t heard any bad things said about presbyters who “feel” a certain way. It’s when they act on those “feelings” and rationalize those actions that the problems begin. This is when I am told things like, “you don’t know how to read the documents.” In many cases they get very defensive and behavior unbecoming a Christian, not to mention a priest, begins to emerge. In addition, I’ve been put in a position where I am having to violate items in the GIRM or lose my job. And it’s not enough that I have to do what the pastor says, I’m supposed to agree with it too - even if I don’t agree. I often get the feeling that whether or not God is honored by what we do is less important that a “perfect” liturgy.

I/we know of others in your position and pray for strength in them… you will be included.

 

[MrS]

msproule:

Certainly there are more precious materials than gold, although I doubt many would agree that crystal fits this criterion. Regardless, how difficult is it for one entrusted to follow the Church’s regulations to do so regarding something so basic? If this happens due to lack of knowledge on the part of the priest, I pray that he learns of his error and makes the correction. If he violates the rules with full knowledge and intent, then there is a problem.

The problem with your argument about orthodoxy is that you assume that it is unopen to change. That argument would be applicable to some of the traditionalist movements but that is not what we are discussing. On the contrary, orthodoxy in this debate is about obedience to the Magisterium. As petty as these details may seem to you, modifying them to suit one’s interest is a serious matter.

Amen, and well said.

 

[singerlady]

MrS:

I/we know of others in your position and pray for strength in them… you will be included.

Thank you, thank you. There are times when I feel as if I/we are under demonic attack. (I am not calling anyone a demon, FromMi). Some priests I know pooh pooh this. “Satan is a foe defeated,” they say. My answer is, “yeah, but he isn’t dead yet, and he’ll take as many down with him as he can.”

 

[frommi]

singerlady:

Thank you, thank you. There are times when I feel as if I/we are under demonic attack. (I am not calling anyone a demon, FromMi). Some priests I know pooh pooh this. “Satan is a foe defeated,” they say. My answer is, “yeah, but he isn’t dead yet, and he’ll take as many down with him as he can.”

I know you aren’t…as far as things like singing the doxology, not my personal preference…although as a musician, I wish more priests would learn to sing.

 

[singerlady]

frommi:

…although as a musician, I wish more priests would learn to sing.

I hear you there! We used to have a pastor who sang all the time. I would arrive at church and I could hear him singing in the rectory. This is a man who loves what he does. His was a voice one could hear but at the same time it never overpowered the assembly - his joy was alway apparent and very contagious. Ahhh, those were the days. I always have a vision of Jesus smiling fondly on this particular servant.

 

[frommi]

singerlady:

I hear you there! We used to have a pastor who sang all the time. I would arrive at church and I could hear him singing in the rectory. This is a man who loves what he does. His was a voice one could hear but at the same time it never overpowered the assembly - his joy was alway apparent and very contagious. Ahhh, those were the days. I always have a vision of Jesus smiling fondly on this particular servant.

Well, I personally find it great when the pastor sings the eucharistic prayer…and i was fortunate to have at least one ‘singing pastor’ during my time in saginaw.

 

[cdwiseman]

Bishop Carlson’s Holy Week Schedule:

saginawchurch.org/press_release/recent_pr.htm

Passion/Palm Sunday March 19/20

Saturday, March 19, 4 p.m. Mass at St. Mary Cathedral, Saginaw.

Sunday, 10 a.m. Mass at St. John the Evangelist Parish in Essexville.

Chrism Mass March 22
Tuesday 10:30 a.m. St. Mary Cathedral, Saginaw.

Holy Thursday March 24
7 p.m., St. Mary Cathedral, Saginaw.

Good Friday March 25
12:00 Noon, St. Mary Cathedral, Saginaw.

Holy Saturday March 26
8 p.m. , St. Mary Cathedral, Saginaw.

 

[Scapular]

frommi:

OK…it has been two weeks…have all the heretics been chased out of Saginaw like the snakes out of Ireland?

Did the Bishop bring in a construction company to reinstall kneelers throughout?

Are they having an “authenticity of the bread” bake off?

Come on…with as bad as things purportedly are…I would expect such an orthodox man to take of these grievous problems before worrying about things like keeping schools open…sheesh…

FromMI,

Notice this week’s Catholic Weekly, Bishop Carlson is already making significant changes (like moving Donner out of Mt. P). I am also seeing more orthodoxy at the parish level w/r/t reverence and rubricks.

Follow the yellow brick road,
Scapular

 

[ekindermann]

Scapular:

Notice this week’s Catholic Weekly, Bishop Carlson is already making significant changes (like moving Donner out of Mt. P). Scapular

So who is moving where? I’ve heard Fr. Joe from St. Cecilia’s (Clare) is retiring, Fr. Patrick from Sacred Heart in Gladwin is coming to Clare to replace him and Fr. Donner (???) is replacing him in Gladwin. Is that what you read/heard? Is anyone coming to Harrison (whimper, whimper)?

 

[saggal]

All due respect, those moves were in the making long before Bishop Carlson arrived.

While it says he makes the announcement, the personnel board is the one that worked on the transfers.