Bishop Robert Carlson - Sioux Falls

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singerlady:
We had a recent “Mainstreet Meeting” with Bishop Carlson and there were many who were upset with the liturgical situation in the diocese. Those who tried to speak up were so upset that I’m not sure the bishop understood what their frustration was.
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singerlady -

Glad there’s activity in this thread again! Thanks for “reactivating” it. I’ve been following for quite some time.

The liturgy has clearly emerged as one of the most important items of concern here.

I attended one of his meetings a month or so ago. It sounds as though he will definately address this issue. He said that he had (at that time) visited 14 different churches in the diocese, encountered 14 varieties of the liturgy, and that this would be something that he would address after he had visited parishes in the rest of the diocese.

I was relieved. Also good to hear from another poster that he’s said he will follow the GIRM.

I’m sorry to hear about what your priest said. Very irresponsible and childish. Please let us know how your “come to Jesus” meeting went.

You’re in my prayers.

spanky
 
Other Issues:

While a lot of folks here seem concerned about the bread composition used for consecration, I haven’t run into that problem in Bay City.

I’m more concerned about the lack of bible studies available around the diocese. I don’t like the Little Rock series, to begin with, for a number of reasons. Most Catholic bible studies that I’ve found squeeze all the time out in one way or another. There’s no time to actually read the scripture during the meeting, and there’s a lot of thought control in forcing participants to simply answer scripted questions.

I stopped attending Mass and I quit the parish, in writing, for the pastor’s refusal to allow a Bible study (isn’t it crazy? there’s a program at the diocesan level to GET adult formation in the parishes OVER TEN YEARS -[give me a break]). Not supporting that, but the pastor approves those casino bus trips being sponsored in the parish.

This pastor is a disciple of the local bible expert Fr. Bill T., who subscribes to the very-left wing school of thought identified with the late Fr. Raymond E. Brown. This pastor has stated IN WRITING in the bulletin that the early part of Genesis is pure fiction, which he likens without qualification to the myth of Santa Claus.

Well, in turn, Fr. Brown wrote in The New Jerome Biblical Commentary that the greatest theologian of the 20th century was [the liberal Lutheran ] Rudolf Bultmann.

Brown, himself, was convinced that the nativity narratives of the gospels are pure fiction and contrivance. Bultmann is known for his rejection of Christ’s resurrection.

My conclusion is that Bible studies are in the can because of the biblical skeptics in our midst. I’m waiting to see what Bishop Carlson does about this. So, my view of the new Bishop is very long range, as I don’t think he can clean up this mess for several years, at least, even if he personally assures us that he stands for only orthodox authentic teaching of the Catholic Church. As a previous poster noted, there is a lot of duplicity out there, right here in Bay City, for example. Wake me up when the true and complete gospel comes around.
 
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Hestia:
FYI: about 190 people attended the gathering (2 folks from each parish) and they were asked to get feedback from the folks in the pews!
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I double checked this with our representative. He said there were about 190 people at the FIRST meeting, but at the follow-up meeting there were only about 20. He said that was when they realized they needed to try something else so we got the questionaires after Mass.
 
There were two meetings held at the Diocesan Center: one in October and one in March - both had about 190 people present - perhaps your rep attended a different kind of meeting on the same issue - but I know these facts are true because I was present.
 
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Hestia:
There were two meetings held at the Diocesan Center: one in October and one in March - both had about 190 people present - perhaps your rep attended a different kind of meeting on the same issue
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That could very well be. Thank you for clarifying.
 
Hestia,
I just found out where the discrepancy is. Our rep was talking about the PARISH meeting after the diocesan meeting. That’s where only 20 people showed up. Sorry for the confusion.
 
I just clicked on to the saginaw Diocese website, www.saginaw.org and I found the Q&A from Bishop Carlson regarding his “Main Street Meetings” at parishes discussing what it is the people see as needs in the diocese. When he was asked about the liturgical practices he said the following and I quote:

“During the Liturgy of the Eucharist I’ve seen people do everything but stand on their heads; some kneel, some sit and others stand.”

This is hillarious for the Bishop to say! I cry out for prayer for the Diocese of Saginaw and people such as Singerlady who want to do good in these places and are faced with such strong unorthodoxy!

Pray for the priests. This is the place where we need to start! St. John Vianney, Pray for them!

Anyone else have any comments regarding the Main Street Meetings?
 
Pray - its everything! Having had to endure the hardship of practicing our Faith miles away from home for so long, I keep asking in my prayers that our nearby church will be healed. I have had to refrain from further attempts to attend there because I cannot tolerate the ignorant abuse and unwillingness to correct the situation. I pray also that our new Bishop Carlson will have the strength of the Holy Spirit to carry out his work. Its entirely possible that our local church will have to be closed for awhile - there is no school involved, the number of parish members has drastically fallen and I understand “operating expenses” are running behind. Time will tell and possibly it needs a “time out” to be healed. Meanwhile we will continue to struggle down the road - 90 miles round trip to really feel like you are attending a
Holy Mass among people who share the Faith. Having my 92 year old Mom living with us (suffering AD) requires someone to be with her while we are gone to Mass (approx 3 hours) or we attend separately, not to mention the expense. So, these things I offer up and will continue to pray and hope!
 
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bknebel:
I just clicked on to the saginaw Diocese website, www.saginaw.org and I found the Q&A from Bishop Carlson regarding his “Main Street Meetings” at parishes discussing what it is the people see as needs in the diocese. When he was asked about the liturgical practices he said the following and I quote:

"During the Liturgy of the Eucharist I’ve seen people do everything but stand on their heads; some kneel, some sit and others stand."
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Where exactly do you find this? I checked out saginaw.org and can find no such Q&A. Do you have the exact link where that exchange is found?
 
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PiusXIII:
Where exactly do you find this? I checked out saginaw.org and can find no such Q&A. Do you have the exact link where that exchange is found?
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It’s not there anymore. I can vouch for bknebel that it was once there - a list of FAQ with Bishop Carlson’s explanations.
 
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spanky:
It’s not there anymore. I can vouch for bknebel that it was once there - a list of FAQ with Bishop Carlson’s explanations.
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I wish they would have kept it up there—I would have liked to read it and I didn’t see this quote until recently.
 
I’m sorry to resurrect such a thread when it seemed so close to being done, but I have a question about the liturgical state of things in the Diocese of Saginaw. I’m going to be a student at Central Michigan University next fall, and I’m a little apprehensive after all the liturgical horror stories I’ve heard about the diocese. I’m most concerned about the matter used for the host in some locations. This seems to be an extremely important issue and I was wondering if anyone had heard anything from Bishop Carlson related to the matter of the Eucharistic species.

Thanks a lot!
 
If your only concern is the matter of the Eucharist, go to Sacred Heart in downtown Mt. Pleasant. They still use wafers, however, you may be treated to a homily by a nun.

The proper recipe was faxed to all parishes, but in our parish, it isn’t being used. We still get cookies.

The pastor of the CMU campus chapel is moving in July. I haven’t heard of a replacement being assigned as of this writing.

Bishop Carlson told the pastors to continue as they have been until he has a chance to look at the documents and meet with the priests.

I hope this helps you. I am a CMU alumnus.
 
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singerlady:
If your only concern is the matter of the Eucharist, go to Sacred Heart in downtown Mt. Pleasant. They still use wafers, however, you may be treated to a homily by a nun.

The proper recipe was faxed to all parishes, but in our parish, it isn’t being used. We still get cookies.

The pastor of the CMU campus chapel is moving in July. I haven’t heard of a replacement being assigned as of this writing.

Bishop Carlson told the pastors to continue as they have been until he has a chance to look at the documents and meet with the priests.

I hope this helps you. I am a CMU alumnus.
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Thanks, I’m not thrilled about the other abuses (I can live with them), but I’d rather not have to worry about whether or not the mass was valid.

Thanks for the info. I really appreciate it!
 
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frommi:
Just a couple of things…

I still believe this issue of “honey” or “no honey” gets too much play in these forums. What if bread simply works better with honey? I think too often things like this are viewed as some kind of deliberate attempt to usurp some sort of authority. But again, that’s simply my opinion.

The title “vicar of Christ” applies to ALL bishops, not just the bishop of Rome. Vicar of Peter applies only to the occupier of the petrine office. The Pope’s authority is not of a corporate nature, like a CEO…he’s the ‘first among equals’, but remember, there is not a 3rd level of holy orders that is bestowed upon him. First and foremost he is Bishop of Rome, and from there are other responsibilities to the worldwide church. If he had authority over bishops the way we think of worldly authority, he could theoretically ‘fire’ bishops, which to my knowledge has happened once in his papacy to a bishop in France…and that was more of a transfer to oblivion.

I think we are in agreement that all local churches need to remain in communion with the universal church, and feel the need to point out again that the church of Saginaw under the leadership of Bishop Untener NEVER broke communion with Rome.
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I hate to say this frommi but just where did you learn your Cathlocism from??? It sounds like the Martin Luther primer.

First the VICAR OF CHRIST is the Pope - only the Pope has ever born this title. There is no such title as Vicar of Peter. No bishop has ever used or has ever been entitled to use the title Vicar of Christ.

Second - the Pope has never been “primus inter pares” like the Anglican Archbisop of Canterbury. He has always been the head of the Church. While there has been some discussion of “collegiality” over the centuries, the Councils of Trent and Vatican I made it clear that the Pope is the visible head of the Catholic Church here on earth and has the final authority in all matters of faith and morals. And yes he does have the power to “fire” bishops if necessary.

Finally you make it sound as if Saginaw was like an eastern rite church in union with Rome. In fact Saginaw is a Latin rite diocese of the Catholic Church not an independant church in “communion” with Rome.

Frankly if this is an example of the education in the faith that went on under Untener then I would consider the criticisms of him made here to be fully substantiated.
 
Hestia said:
Wow. Looks like SOMEONE is pretty happy that Bishop Ken is no longer with us.

I can’t believe how mean-spirited and sick some of you people are. Who would be happy about someone’s death?
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If even half of what has been detailed by grotto and others in this thread is true then Bishop Untener was responsible for the “death” of many souls. And I find it means spirited and sick to have been happy about that.

Dante’s circles of hell are going to be full of modernist bishops who lead the faithful astray.
 
While there has been some discussion of “collegiality” over the centuries, the Councils of Trent and Vatican I made it clear that the Pope is the visible head of the Catholic Church here on earth and has the final authority in all matters of faith and morals. And yes he does have the power to “fire” bishops if necessary

Innocent III
Have you ever read the documents of Vatican II or the 1983 Code of Canon Law? You might find them enlightening!

Also, the operative word in your last post is “If”. A lot of the people who post here don’t really know the Diocese of Saginaw nor Bishop Untener - they only know the opinion posted by single-minded people in these chat rooms. Even Bishop Carlson will tell you that the Diocese of Saginaw does not deserve the reputation that is has around the country. I hope you folks aren’t too disappointed if he doesn’t make all the changes you feel need to be made!!
 
Hestia said:
While there has been some discussion of “collegiality” over the centuries, the Councils of Trent and Vatican I made it clear that the Pope is the visible head of the Catholic Church here on earth and has the final authority in all matters of faith and morals. And yes he does have the power to “fire” bishops if necessary

Innocent III
Have you ever read the documents of Vatican II or the 1983 Code of Canon Law? You might find them enlightening!

Also, the operative word in your last post is “If”. A lot of the people who post here don’t really know the Diocese of Saginaw nor Bishop Untener - they only know the opinion posted by single-minded people in these chat rooms. Even Bishop Carlson will tell you that the Diocese of Saginaw does not deserve the reputation that is has around the country. I hope you folks aren’t too disappointed if he doesn’t make all the changes you feel need to be made!!
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Can you give a citation from either source that disproves Innocent’s assertions?
 
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InnocentIII:
First the VICAR OF CHRIST is the Pope - only the Pope has ever born this title. There is no such title as Vicar of Peter. No bishop has ever used or has ever been entitled to use the title Vicar of Christ.

Second - the Pope has never been “primus inter pares” like the Anglican Archbisop of Canterbury. He has always been the head of the Church. While there has been some discussion of “collegiality” over the centuries, the Councils of Trent and Vatican I made it clear that the Pope is the visible head of the Catholic Church here on earth and has the final authority in all matters of faith and morals. And yes he does have the power to “fire” bishops if necessary.

Finally you make it sound as if Saginaw was like an eastern rite church in union with Rome. In fact Saginaw is a Latin rite diocese of the Catholic Church not an independant church in “communion” with Rome.

Frankly if this is an example of the education in the faith that went on under Untener then I would consider the criticisms of him made here to be fully substantiated.
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Interesting assertions…

Let’s try this…

First…

In the funeral Mass for a pope, he is referred to as the vicar of Peter: “May your servant [name], our Pope, vicar of Peter, and shepherd of your Church, who faithfully administered the mysteries of your forgiveness and love on earth, rejoice with you forever in heaven.”

Continuing On
The title Vicar of Christ has been used of all bishops since the early centuries. John Paul II, in his 1995 encyclical Ut Unum Sint, uses this title for bishops: "When the Catholic

Church affirms that the office of the Bishop of Rome corresponds to the will of Christ, she does not separate this office from the mission entrusted to the whole body of bishops, who are also vicars and ambassadors of Christ.' The Bishop of Rome is a member of the College,’ and the Bishops are his brothers in the ministry." (No. 95)

Now…we can continue this conversation I suppose, but why do I feel that you will simply decide that I don’t know what I’m talking about.
 
From An Introduction to Canon Law, A CANONICAL CONSTITUTION OF THE CHURCH

CHAPTER II: The Hierarchical Structur of the Church

Article I: The Lord Jesus Christ, while remaining the invisible head and eternal pastor of the church, willed that the apostles, with Peter as their head, be the pastors of his church. The bishop of Rome, successor to Peter, is the head of the college of bishops and pastor of the church on earth. The bishops, successors of the apostles, by their sacramental consecration and ecclesial communion, make up a college, which also has supreme and full authority in the church.

Article III: Individual bishops who have been entrusted with the care of particular churches lead them as vicars and legates of Christ, and as pastors they nourish their people, exercising the functions of teaching and sanctifying, and ruling. This pastoral authority, which they receive by episcopal consecration, is made operative by their canonical mission, which implies apostolic communion.

My question is if the Pope can “fire bishops” and if Bishop Ken was a “heretic”, why didn’t Pope John Paul II fire him, or call him to Rome during his 24 years to censure him for his teachings?
 
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