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bknebel
Guest
Amen Good brother!
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grotto
Guest
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frommi
Guest
frommi:
Oh for crying out loud…
You can’t possibly believe that their isn’t holiness in Saginaw…with or with Robert Carlson.
Even if you are upset with a nun giving a homily…she’s still holy…it still comes from a place of holiness.
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bknebel
Guest
I beg to differ, FromMi… just because someone has entered a religious life (priest, monk, nun, etc) doesn’t make them holy.
Many don’t life Holy lives, whether they are religious or lay. We are all called to it though. As Mother Teresa said, “Holiness is not a luxury of the few, but an obligation of us all.”
I met a nun who was preaching in our diocese (removed by Bishop Carlson, by the way) and as far as anyone knows, she was having an affair with a priest down the road. After Bishop asked her to return to her convent, she left her order, the church, moved across the country with this priest, and entered the Lutheran Seminary.
Not exactly holiness if you ask me.
But- doesn’t mean that all nuns that preach are having an affair or aren’t holy. By no means would I want to say that. I have met many many wonderful and holy nuns.
Holiness is when someone leads you to christ through their example.
Nuns preaching at Mass is not something Christ’s church has said is in their calling. Its not something I’m even able to do.
Many don’t life Holy lives, whether they are religious or lay. We are all called to it though. As Mother Teresa said, “Holiness is not a luxury of the few, but an obligation of us all.”
I met a nun who was preaching in our diocese (removed by Bishop Carlson, by the way) and as far as anyone knows, she was having an affair with a priest down the road. After Bishop asked her to return to her convent, she left her order, the church, moved across the country with this priest, and entered the Lutheran Seminary.
Not exactly holiness if you ask me.
But- doesn’t mean that all nuns that preach are having an affair or aren’t holy. By no means would I want to say that. I have met many many wonderful and holy nuns.
Holiness is when someone leads you to christ through their example.
Nuns preaching at Mass is not something Christ’s church has said is in their calling. Its not something I’m even able to do.
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frommi
Guest
I disagree with blanket statements made by the ill informed. I’m guilty of saying everyone is “holy” in Saginaw, and I’ll retract that.
However…I’ll hold my breath till I turn blue defending the good work that those folks have done and are still doing.
Opinion’s like Grotto’s obscure the good work of the HOLY people there, and give folks like you a distorted vision of that place.
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MrS
Guest
do any of you last few posters have the Rosary CD that was the product of Bishop Carlson, some seminarians, and AveMaria Radio???
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singerlady
Guest
I have it. It is excellent. Each set of mysteries begins with some music that sets the tone for the set of mysteries that is about to be prayed. Between each decade, there is a reflection on how that particular mystery can be meditated on in relation to the call of Christ in our lives whether it be to the priesthood, religious life, married life, or generous single life. At $7.00 it is a real bargain. It is powerful to hear the response of the seminarians and heartening to know how many have answered the call. Very beautifully done.
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bknebel
Guest
Bishop did two different Vocations Rosary recordings while he was here. Great ministry tools!
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grotto
Guest
Just so I won’t hurt your feelings Frommi - I will refrain from responding to your charge that I obscure and distort with my opinions.
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Crumpy
Guest
St Joseph Parish in Bay City has perpetual adoration of the Eucharist but is always begging for people to commit to time slots for devotion.
Even though this church is just blocks from the police station, I’m not so sure it is a safe place to be at all hours of the day and night.
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frommi
Guest
You can respond…I’m confident im abilities to refute.
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Crumpy
Guest
George Weigel posted an article in the Saginaw “Catholic Weekly” a couple weeks ago. It had to do with his observation that there seems to be two types of Catholics or two camps of Catholics, I don’t recall how he put it, that have emerged after Vatican II.
Loosely speaking, he said that there was an orthodox camp and a non-orthodox camp. the former adheres to traditional Catholic beliefs and practices, and the latter does not.
What is evident in this thread, is the tension between these two camps. The National Catholic Reporter eulogized Bishop Untener as the most liberal bishop in the U.S. He was a liberal’s liberal.
That is why so many Catholics in Saginaw feel alienated by the new clericalism in Saginaw, the loop-hole masses that are always skirting the edge of conformity. I lived in the conservative Peoria diocese before moving back to Saginaw. I just could not be more shocked by that weekend transition that I made. In one weekend I moved through a time warp.
There’s a lot of whining here, of course, about what has happened. Of course it happened. That is why there was and is such a cult around Untener even today.
Untener gave a keynote address at some convention, some months before he passed away. It was that widely quoted one where he was talking about the ecclesiology evolving in the church. The one where he said there was no golden age of ecclesiology that we should want to go back to. Of course, he was talking principally about ordaining women. The one and only time I saw him in person was in Illinois where he gave a talk. Sure enough, the first question was about ordaining women. He said he saw no impediment to ordaining women, “but I am not in charge.” He shook his head as if in disgust about the current Church position.
sure enough, when I went to the Town Hall meeting to meet Bishop Carlson, he was answering the SAME QUESTION. Obviously this is a big rift in the Saginaw Diocese, as there is in the country itself.
Weigel can see it. I saw a show on EWTN the other night with Fr. Robert Levis, produced in 1996, and he was talking about it. Fr. Benedict Groeschel, Fr. Mitch Pacwa, and Fr. John Corapi all talk about it.
Karl Keating just talked about aspects of it in his weekly letter of Feb 7 (see his thread on this).
Weigel’s point recently was that his Holiness, Pope Benedict is going to have to do something about it. Everyone is simply waiting for him to speak. I downloaded his first encyclical but I haven’t read it. I think it’s clear and obvious where he is going, because the first subject that he dealt with was God and Love. And, whatever else he says from this point on, will be couched in terms of God and Love. I think everyone here needs to be on that page.
I notice that Benedict is going to give that encyclical some time to sink in, first though. I think he was quickly elected by cardinals who know what needs to be done in the Church, with God’s help.
Loosely speaking, he said that there was an orthodox camp and a non-orthodox camp. the former adheres to traditional Catholic beliefs and practices, and the latter does not.
What is evident in this thread, is the tension between these two camps. The National Catholic Reporter eulogized Bishop Untener as the most liberal bishop in the U.S. He was a liberal’s liberal.
That is why so many Catholics in Saginaw feel alienated by the new clericalism in Saginaw, the loop-hole masses that are always skirting the edge of conformity. I lived in the conservative Peoria diocese before moving back to Saginaw. I just could not be more shocked by that weekend transition that I made. In one weekend I moved through a time warp.
There’s a lot of whining here, of course, about what has happened. Of course it happened. That is why there was and is such a cult around Untener even today.
Untener gave a keynote address at some convention, some months before he passed away. It was that widely quoted one where he was talking about the ecclesiology evolving in the church. The one where he said there was no golden age of ecclesiology that we should want to go back to. Of course, he was talking principally about ordaining women. The one and only time I saw him in person was in Illinois where he gave a talk. Sure enough, the first question was about ordaining women. He said he saw no impediment to ordaining women, “but I am not in charge.” He shook his head as if in disgust about the current Church position.
sure enough, when I went to the Town Hall meeting to meet Bishop Carlson, he was answering the SAME QUESTION. Obviously this is a big rift in the Saginaw Diocese, as there is in the country itself.
Weigel can see it. I saw a show on EWTN the other night with Fr. Robert Levis, produced in 1996, and he was talking about it. Fr. Benedict Groeschel, Fr. Mitch Pacwa, and Fr. John Corapi all talk about it.
Karl Keating just talked about aspects of it in his weekly letter of Feb 7 (see his thread on this).
Weigel’s point recently was that his Holiness, Pope Benedict is going to have to do something about it. Everyone is simply waiting for him to speak. I downloaded his first encyclical but I haven’t read it. I think it’s clear and obvious where he is going, because the first subject that he dealt with was God and Love. And, whatever else he says from this point on, will be couched in terms of God and Love. I think everyone here needs to be on that page.
I notice that Benedict is going to give that encyclical some time to sink in, first though. I think he was quickly elected by cardinals who know what needs to be done in the Church, with God’s help.
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bknebel
Guest
Thanks for the post, crumpy
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grotto
Guest
Crumpy - thanks so much for your post - another light shining on the explanation of what happened. Whatever posts I presented on these CA forums were never obscured or distorted. The fruits from these past 30 years are rotting on the ground and stuck in many hearts and minds. Presenting and teaching the Catholic Faith has got to start over according to the Holy Roman Catholic Church not the personality preachers and Call to Action propagandists.
C
Crumpy
Guest
To complete one thought about my previous post.
Bishops Untener and Carlson answered that question about ordaining women with different body language as well as with slightly different answers.
They both said that women could not be ordained. Untener said it shaking his head and looking down at the floor. Carlson said with his head held high and looking people straight in the eye.
Both of them clearly understood what Pope John Paul II had said over 10 years previously, that the Church *couldn’t * ordain women even if it wanted to.
It’s so easy to expand on this.
Back around 1975, Fr. Raymond E. Brown wrote a book in which he devoted a chapter to the question of ordaining women. Oddly, he said he was not taking sides. But, he gave three rationales.
I can’t remember the second one, but the first one was the traditional male-only rationale. Christ chose male apostles and commissioned them, and that’s that. The third rationale Brown formulated was that the male-only priesthood was a culture- and historical necessity of that time, and that there’s no injunction against a female-priesthood in scripture.
It’s hard to foresee that the differences of opinion will go away soon. In Dei Verbum of Vatican II and in the Pont. Bibl. Commision’s guidelines for interpretation of scripture, the point has been nailed down that to interpret scripture properly, the exegete has to consider the author’s intention, the language, the culture and times, etc., to whom the letter was addressed and so forth. So, the basis for relativizing scripture has been well established.
Late in life, John Paul II said that he had spent his entire pontificate opposing relativism. And, I’ve heard that he also claimed that he considered the Catechism of the Catholic Church the greatest accomplishment of his pontificate. Obviously, the CCC is a response to relativism. And, obvious as well, JPII and Ratzinger mobilized and involved all the bishops in coming up with the CCC, to make an obvious big point – unify around this. JPII called the CCC the 'deposit of faith." It was an effort that was a couple notches below calling an ecumenical council, to deal with challenges to traditional beliefs in the Church.
It’s up to Benedict to drop the second shoe – to deal with the challenges to traditional **practices ** in the Church.
Bishops Untener and Carlson answered that question about ordaining women with different body language as well as with slightly different answers.
They both said that women could not be ordained. Untener said it shaking his head and looking down at the floor. Carlson said with his head held high and looking people straight in the eye.
Both of them clearly understood what Pope John Paul II had said over 10 years previously, that the Church *couldn’t * ordain women even if it wanted to.
It’s so easy to expand on this.
Back around 1975, Fr. Raymond E. Brown wrote a book in which he devoted a chapter to the question of ordaining women. Oddly, he said he was not taking sides. But, he gave three rationales.
I can’t remember the second one, but the first one was the traditional male-only rationale. Christ chose male apostles and commissioned them, and that’s that. The third rationale Brown formulated was that the male-only priesthood was a culture- and historical necessity of that time, and that there’s no injunction against a female-priesthood in scripture.
It’s hard to foresee that the differences of opinion will go away soon. In Dei Verbum of Vatican II and in the Pont. Bibl. Commision’s guidelines for interpretation of scripture, the point has been nailed down that to interpret scripture properly, the exegete has to consider the author’s intention, the language, the culture and times, etc., to whom the letter was addressed and so forth. So, the basis for relativizing scripture has been well established.
Late in life, John Paul II said that he had spent his entire pontificate opposing relativism. And, I’ve heard that he also claimed that he considered the Catechism of the Catholic Church the greatest accomplishment of his pontificate. Obviously, the CCC is a response to relativism. And, obvious as well, JPII and Ratzinger mobilized and involved all the bishops in coming up with the CCC, to make an obvious big point – unify around this. JPII called the CCC the 'deposit of faith." It was an effort that was a couple notches below calling an ecumenical council, to deal with challenges to traditional beliefs in the Church.
It’s up to Benedict to drop the second shoe – to deal with the challenges to traditional **practices ** in the Church.
B
bknebel
Guest
so true.
I think I need to come visit the Saginaw Diocese personally. I’m hoping to come this summer.
While there, I want to see the contrast.
I know usually people shouldn’t attend multiple Masses in a weekend (without good reason), but- i think getting a feel for the atmosphere would be a good reason.
Can anyone tell me of a parish that is really out in left field?
also maybe a couple that are left, but not quite center?
and maybe a parish that is as in communion with what the church asks as possible?
Thanks.
I think I need to come visit the Saginaw Diocese personally. I’m hoping to come this summer.
While there, I want to see the contrast.
I know usually people shouldn’t attend multiple Masses in a weekend (without good reason), but- i think getting a feel for the atmosphere would be a good reason.
Can anyone tell me of a parish that is really out in left field?
also maybe a couple that are left, but not quite center?
and maybe a parish that is as in communion with what the church asks as possible?
Thanks.
S
singerlady
Guest
Hi Basil -
St. Agnes in Sanford is fairly orthodox - interestingly enough, it is also the fastest growing parish in the diocese. Also, St. Cyril in Bannister. St. John the Worker in Beal City is also more orthodox - relatively speaking.
St. Agnes in Sanford is fairly orthodox - interestingly enough, it is also the fastest growing parish in the diocese. Also, St. Cyril in Bannister. St. John the Worker in Beal City is also more orthodox - relatively speaking.
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bknebel
Guest
hey thanks
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MICATH
Guest
If you want to see left field, visit our Cathedral. It is about as far left as they get.
Left of center, try St. John Vianney or SS. Peter & Paul in Saginaw.
Hopefully, if the rumors are true that there will be GIRM implementation in the next several months, by summer these conditions won’t exist!
Left of center, try St. John Vianney or SS. Peter & Paul in Saginaw.
Hopefully, if the rumors are true that there will be GIRM implementation in the next several months, by summer these conditions won’t exist!
8
8640
Guest
I’ve heard that St. Stanislaus in Bay City is an excellent parish. I have some friends who go there.
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