Bishop says "I will go to jail before I will obey," as California proposes law requiring priests to report to police what they heard in confession

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Gorgias said:
Sure, if he’s convinced that the person isn’t penitent. Generally speaking, the person’s presence in the confessional kinda implies penitence… don’t you think?
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Actually it does not convince me that a person is remorseful, sorrowful, or in any way at all ashamed simply because they are in the confessional. Many types of crimes, including child sex abuse, tend to be committed by people that like to brag about what they have done. They get satisfaction by talking about it. Murderers are often at the funerals of their victims. They visit their graves. Often the only reason anyone even knows a child has been sexually abused is because the abuser brags about what they have done or a video/pictures of the actual crime are found or distributed. Usually it is not the child that talks about it to someone. The seal of confession is an added bonus to people with that mindset.

That being said, I do not in anyway believe the seal of confession should be broken. I find it disturbing that this is even thought of as a good Law by anyone. I just don’t like the idea of “just showing up shows penitence” because especially for sex abuse crimes that is false.
 
Was that intended to be an answer to my question? If so, I would prefer a more precise yes or no. BTW, I apologize if you have previously made the answer clear, as I have not read the entire thread.
 
13pollitos said:
That being said, I do not in anyway believe the seal of confession should be broken. I find it disturbing that this is even thought of as a good Law by anyone. I just don’t like the idea of “just showing up shows penitence” because especially for sex abuse crimes that is false.
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I understand that point. The priest has to decide, I believe in of our resident priest has addressed this.
 
TheLittleLady said:
Keeping a secret is not a “cover up”.
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“Shhh – don’t tell anyone! Johnny loves Suzy!” Agreed – keeping that secret isn’t a sin.
“Father, I murdered a man two weeks ago”. The murderer, keeping that secret about himself, is committing another sin, in my opinion. Maybe I’m the only one who thinks so!?!
 
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tafan2 said:
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Loud-living-dogma:
Covering those up doesn’t qualify as a sin in your mind? Maybe God is okay with a murderer hiding out. Or a child molestor. I don’t know. What surprises me is that after all these years of news about the Catholic Church and child abuse, that people don’t see covering up crime as a sin. A separate sin, different from the original crime.
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Just to be absolutely clear, do you believe the absolute confessional seal is one means by which the Church covers up these crimes?
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No, I agree that priests cannot themselves reveal another’s crimes. However, I don’t know how Catholics can cover up their own crimes, when it is part of the sacrament of reconciliation that they are supposed to make restitution. How does a Catholic intend to make restitution for a serious crime, in which another person was seriously harmed, without revealing it to law enforcement?
 
Thank you. Sorry for misunderstanding your point. I am in agreement with you to some extent. I even speculated recently that it might be ok for a priest to require a criminal to turn himself in for absolution to be given. I was quickly corrected and I think my speculation was very wrong.
But I will admit, I have a hard time arguing the point, beyond it seems like a slippery and dangerous slope. For some crimes, it does seem like reparation requires a confession to civil authorities. But I do not know for sure what the Church means by saying intent to make reparation is needed by the penitent. Make reparation to who, to what extent?
 
Let’s go back to me murdering that fictional person.

I cannot go to prison because I must support my widowed mother and my children. They would be destitute without me around.

I can make reparations through a life of service to others, in being part of a jail ministry, in prayer and sacrifices, in good works and kindness.
 
I am not disagreeing with you, just trying to clarify my own opinion (or lack there of). What if the penitent is single and has no dependents? Can the priest ever specify the reparations? If not, why not?
 
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TheLittleLady said:
Let’s go back to me murdering that fictional person.

I cannot go to prison because I must support my widowed mother and my children. They would be destitute without me around.

I can make reparations through a life of service to others, in being part of a jail ministry, in prayer and sacrifices, in good works and kindness.
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No, you do all that stuff after / while you’re in prison.
Do you think anyone should go to prison? Does anyone with kids / family members get a “get out of jail free” card?

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www.fatherhood.org
 
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TheLittleLady said:
I cannot go to prison because I must support my widowed mother and my children. They would be destitute without me around.
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While I 100% agree that the Priest must not force someone to turn themselves in someone in that situation should be prepared to get caught.
 
A priest can never require a person reveal their sin. If the priest did suggest reparations (and from someone who had been forgiven much, I would imagine they would ask the priest for advice), that could not be “you must make repatriation by going to the DA”.

I am not a priest (cause I’m a chick), but, I would doubt a priest could even hint at “If I were you, I’d go to the police and turn my self in” because in the Priest’s position of authority, that could be seen as pressure to reveal one’s sins.

If I stole $500 from my employer, my priest could not require me to carry the money in next Monday morning.
 
@Lion_IRC
The priest cannot tell the penitent to violate the seal
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Dear Friend in Christ:

Could you please answer a question for me? If a person stole something, could the priest advise (but not order) the penitent to return the item or make restitution?

God bless you. I’m sorry if you’ve already answered this question.

Lisa
 
I have not said that people should not go to prison, should not be punished for their crimes.

The priest cannot make a person reveal their sins. The priest cannot make me tell my worst sin to anyone, Priest cannot make you reveal your sins, nor can the priest make Charles Manson tell his worst sin to anyone.

This does not mean the priest cannot pray “Lord, please speak to Joe Murderer and guide him to seek justice.”

Take it personally, think of your worst sin. Do you think the priest should be able to make you announce it for one other person to know? What about for the whole world to know? If that were the case, where the priest could reveal sins or force people to tell their sins, would you ever go to confession again?

I think our “Jerry Springer/The Real Housewives” culture has made us think that everyone has a need to know everyone else’s sins.
 
Note the line “in fact, nobody was really sure if he had learned the information in the confessional or in a confidential conversation made out of it.”

That is important, as has been said a pajillion times, priests are mandated reporters. If they are told of a crime in any place except in confession, they are required to report it.
 
Where is the line? Who decides which sins must be revealed?

If I watch pornography, do I have to reveal it to my spouse?

What about my hateful thoughts about my boss?

Will there be a database/checklist an if/than chart for priests?

It is against the law to drive barefoot in my state. Do I have to reveal that to the police? What about speeding? Speed is mentioned in the Catechism as being sinful for putting others in danger.
 
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regression said:
I have heard a response to this being a violation of the first amendment I am not sure how to respond to. Having more than one wife is against the law. Does this violate Mormon’s rights? Admittedly I am not well versed on what Mormon’s believe, so I am not sure how much of a parallel this is to Catholic confession.
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No it doesn’t. The Courts have already ruled on this - the 1A makes a distinction between belief/opinion and action. Polygamy is the latter and thus government has a say in it. It is not required in the Mormon church to have multiple wives- i believe it’s actually been outlawed there for over 100 years.

Confession is a fundamental aspect of the Catholic faith. The seal is a mandatory aspect of it. Without the seal the free exercise of our faith is compromised.

Such a law has zero chance of standing up in the courts.
 
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