Bishop says tighter gun laws will help build culture of life

[Prodigal_Son1]

Because so far no one has identified the moral choices this issue faces us with.
Stop interpreting people’s intentions. Deal with their arguments, don’t insult their motives.

Ender

The bishops have clearly identified the choices to be building a culture of life, attributing to a culture of death, and spoke of the moral failure of leadership.

I’m not interpreting people’s intentions, and had no intention of insulting someone’s ‘motives.’ An example would be, would it be fair to interpret the Pope’s following message as not giving on this issue for others?

Egoism leads nowhere. Love, however, frees. Therefore, those who are able to live their lives as “a gift to give others” will never be alone and will never experience “the tragedy of the isolated conscience”, easy prey of that “evil repaying Satan” ever “ready to swindle” those who choose his path. Pope Francis gave this teaching on Tuesday morning, 14 May, to those present for the Mass celebrated in the Chapel of the Domus Sanctae Marthae.

The isolated conscience

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Some seem to judge non-negotiables and then you say some are making selective judgments?? Seems like some people call 'non-negotiables" users being "single issue voters.

As far as I’m concerned, with all the dishonesty we are seeing from one side in Washington, I’d be wary to rule out those kinds of people planning Sandy Hooks to make way for gun control.

Are we to hold the bishops to single issues only, or only a few issues, or do we expect their guidance on everything that affects us in a secular world?

The dishonesty has always existed in the man made world of politics, and without any political party being above the other.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The Bishops or Vatican need to make this a “non-negotiable” issue. I will follow their word.

Just because an issue is not ‘non-negotiable’ doesn’t mean an individual can be assured of being correct in disagreeing with the men of the Church. To limit issues as such would be close to saying the men of the Church cannot be right on any other issue.

 

[iamrefreshed]

This seems to me is reason you see gun control as a moral issue: you have judged the intentions of others to be immoral. You see your opponents as unwilling to sacrifice for others, of not loving them. What you apparently cannot accept is that someone might legitimately disagree with your proposals.

Why is it so difficult to believe that other people really do think that the laws you support would have no useful effect? For them (us) it is not a question of being willing to sacrifice some convenience to save lives, it is solely a question of determining what legislation will be most beneficial … and disagreeing with your solutions.

You see this as a moral issue because you uncharitably judge the intentions behind your opponents actions. Your denunciation of someone else’s intention does not make their actions immoral but it does say something about your own.

Ender

Bump based on Enders last post.

Open your mind Prodigal. Follow your namesake.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Are we to hold the bishops to single issues only, or only a few issues, or do we expect their guidance on everything that affects us in a secular world?

The dishonesty has always existed in the man made world of politics, and without any political party being above the other.

I think a lot of people can tell the difference between bishops’ personal opinions and Church teaching. If they’re at all familiar with the latter, they certainly can.

I would certainly not say that any one political party is INHERENTLY above another, morally, but when you have one party or candidate that endorses abortion on demand and homosexual profanation of marriage while the other party or candidate opposes both, I think a Catholic has a pretty clear idication what he should do.

Of course, a lot of Catholics don’t realize the Democrat and Repub parties of their grandparents aren’t the parties of today, and vote as their parents or grandparents did without giving the matter much thought.

On the other hand, some Catholics know full well they’re acting against the teachings of the Church in supporting particular candidates or parties, but do it anyway; perhaps because they think the “old ideology” is still there or perhaps for some gain they think it will bring them.

Someday, the Repub party might become the party of abortion and homosexual “marriage”, and might oppress the Church as Obama does today, and the Dems might become prolife and protectors of marriage.

But that’s not today. It’s a long, long way from being true today.

To clarify for those who don’t already know. I’m not a Repub. I was always a Democrat. But I can’t vote for Democrats on my ballot because they’re all pro-abortion whereas the Repubs are not. The Dem party changed drastically while I was still active in it. I hated to walk away from it, but better to walk away from it than from the salvation of my soul.

 

[pnewton]

. At this point it appears that most Catholics simply tune them out and cannot distinguish between a bishop asserting his moral authority and one forwarding his political agenda.

Ender

If you see this, then I guess there is lends credence to a question from another thread on whether we still have issues with Americanism. I don’t see it locally where we still respect our leadership.

 

[Ridgerunner]

If you see this, then I guess there is lends credence to a question from another thread on whether we still have issues with Americanism. I don’t see it locally where we still respect our leadership.

It is very clear when one contrasts my current bishop with his predecessor.

 

[pnewton]

The Bishops or Vatican need to make this a “non-negotiable” issue. I will follow their word.

It is not. In fact, the Vatican has not made any issue a non-negotiable issue. I do not think that term is found in any Church document.

 

[pnewton]

Bump based on Enders last post.

Open your mind Prodigal. Follow your namesake.

The prodigal son returned to his father, not the Republican party line.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It is not. In fact, the Vatican has not made any issue a non-negotiable issue. I do not think that term is found in any Church document.

Actually, it is. In his address to Caritas International, Pope Benedict said this in condemning abortion:

"On the other hand, all Catholics, and indeed all men and women, are called to act with purified consciences and generous hearts in resolutely promoting those values which I have often referred to as “non-negotiable”.

 

[iamrefreshed]

The prodigal son returned to his father, not the Republican party line.

How very partisan of you.

He learned to submit to his father, not to think he knew better.

Placing unspoken words into the mouths of our Bishop’s is akin. Disobedient.

 

[pnewton]

How very partisan of you.

He learned to submit to his father, not to think he knew better.

Placing unspoken words into the mouths of our Bishop’s is akin. Disobedient.

You asked Prodigal Son to follow his namesake. To what exactly should he return? Disobedient? Who did he disobey? What order or directive did he disobey? I believe your judgmentalism is on par with some of the most extreme I have seen here with your statement. Repentance is something we do ourselves, not something we do for others. Disagreement over politcs does not require repentance. Keep your mad face to yourself. If you get mad over my post then simply don’t fire volleys at others.

 

[iamrefreshed]

You asked Prodigal Son to follow his namesake. To what exactly should he return? Disobedient? Who did he disobey? What order or directive did he disobey? I believe your judgmentalism is on par with some of the most extreme I have seen here with your statement. Repentance is something we do ourselves, not something we do for others. Disagreement over politcs does not require repentance. Keep your mad face to yourself. If you get mad over my post then simply don’t fire volleys at others.

When one implies the Bishops have said something they haven’t you are being disobedient by placing words in their mouths. Read the entire 1100 posts, you will find I am not the only one stating so.

Call it judgement if you will, I call it truth.

I’ve never brought politics into the discussion. However, you have (insert mad face)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Bump based on Enders last post.

Open your mind Prodigal. Follow your namesake.

I follow His namesake, to which one has to open their heart as well as their mind.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

When one implies the Bishops have said something they haven’t you are being disobedient by placing words in their mouths. Read the entire 1100 posts, you will find I am not the only one stating so.

Call it judgement if you will, I call it truth.

I’ve never brought politics into the discussion. However, you have (insert mad face)

I have provided what the bishops have said themselves, and invited everyone to take time to read everything for themselves. What you have not provided is the bishop that speaks in disagreement with them. That makes them say something they haven’t when one projects the opposite of what has been stated…

 

[pnewton]

When one implies the Bishops have said something they haven’t you are being disobedient by placing words in their mouths. Read the entire 1100 posts, you will find I am not the only one stating so.

“Implies?” There is your error. One cannot disobey by implication. I have read every post and have not seen direct disobedience anywhere. I am sorry if you have an anger issue over disagreement with your version of “truth”.

I will prefer to stay with what the Catechism teaches on rash judgment and maintain emotional detachment to those who disagree with me.

 

[BroomWagon]

Are we to hold the bishops to single issues only, or only a few issues, or do we expect their guidance on everything that affects us in a secular world?

The dishonesty has always existed in the man made world of politics, and without any political party being above the other.

I don’t think the Bishops or Vatican surmised “non-negotiables” as just another issue, that to me, does not respect the spirit of their word.

 

[pnewton]

I don’t think the Bishops or Vatican surmised “non-negotiables” as just another issue, that to me, does not respect the spirit of their word.

There are two errors that we can fall into. One is ignoring the weigh of importance of different issues. The other to allow morality in some areas to justify lesser morality in other areas.

Lest someone think this is judgmental, I am only listing this as a principle, not saying differing stances on gun control are immoral. Our reasons for our position can be immoral, but I do not know that our position can be.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I don’t think the Bishops or Vatican surmised “non-negotiables” as just another issue, that to me, does not respect the spirit of their word.

I haven’t said it was ‘just another issue’. There are other issues, and the men of the Church are not limited to a few. They are the authoritative men of the Church. They lead the flock in ALL matters concerning our existence in a secular world. Christ, Himself, spoke on many issues. Did He overstep His authority? NO!

There are two errors that we can fall into. One is ignoring the weigh of importance of different issues. The other to allow morality in some areas to justify lesser morality in other areas.

-pnewton

 

[Ender]

They are the authoritative men of the Church. They lead the flock in ALL matters concerning our existence in a secular world.

This is quite simply untrue. The clergy has one role and the laity has another - each has its own.
Just as we desire lay people not to usurp the rights of clerics,* so we ought to wish clerics not to lay claim to the rights of the laity**. We therefore forbid every cleric henceforth to extend his jurisdiction, under pretext of ecclesiastical freedom, to the prejudice of secular justice. Rather, let him be satisfied with the written constitutions and customs hitherto approved, so that the things of Caesar may be rendered unto Caesar, and the things of God may be rendered unto God by a right distribution.*(4th Lateran Council)
Ender