Bishop scared me

[Teek]

Even direct quotes have to be taken in context. The example I use is a direct quote from John Kennedy: “Let me say this about that. If we are to succeed, we must not fail”.

Now that is an honest and direct quote from him. But because I did not give you the context behind it, it sounds like the ramblings of an idiot. But Kennedy was far from an idiot.

I love that! That is a great example.

I understand what you mean about context. I read it in context, I tried to understand it that way, and I couldn’t. So I posted here to get some help.

I tried to post it in a thread actually asking for concerns about Pope Francis that we might be holding as a grudge. Worried that I fit that category, thinking maybe there was goodwill there that could help me, I posted it.

Immediately, I got bashed and told what I really thought, what I intended, what people like me are really doing. I am a Pope-hater, attacking the Pope. No one can disagree
with the Pope unless they are small
minded, bigoted, resentful people. I need to repent. Vicious stuff.

And I didn’t even disagree with the Pope. I asked if someone could help me understand what he meant, because it looks bad to me.

Only a couple replies actually looked at what he said. Or tried to understand where I was
coming from.

So I thought maybe someone might help if they didn’t see “Pope Francis” and a question in the same post and tear me, my reputation, my credibility, and my faith to shreds.

They didn’t, until someone pointed out it was Pope Francis. Which didn’t take long.

 

[1ke]

Your original post.

 

[Teek]

I feel like this is being taken out of context, and is not fair to the bishop.

It sounds like a snippet of a homily, where the bishop is attempting to simplify complex doctrine. He is stating it is an error to believe God is one distant monothitic being, but three distinct persons who together make up the Godhead, the Trinity.

It is not fair to partially quote only the part where he says “God does not exist” divorced from context, when he is most likely talking figuratively about a common misinterpretation of God’s nature, and the rest of the statement would make that clear.

I considered that and it still didn’t explain it for me.

If someone has a concern about part of what someone says, and wants to ask about it, do they have to post the entire sermon? I was trying to be clear about what part concerned me, and I posted the links so people could see for themselves the entirety.

Later I posted a part of the Athanasian Creed. The relevant part to what I was saying. No one said that wasn’t fair, that it was intentionally taken out of context.

This wasn’t either.

 

[Teek]

In no way do I mean this as a criticism of the Holy Father, but I don’t think he is the type to be all that interested in challenging the upper-level theology of the Trinity. It seems way more likely that he is talking about an intimite relationship with God, rather than discussing theological definitions. That seems to be the type of “dry” stuff in religion that he largely ignores.

That makes sense. And that is the most plausible explanation I have heard yet.

 

[anon65111186]

Perhaps unrelated but in the same vein of what Pope Francis said:

I had a traveling non-denominational evangelist come up to me and talk to me about faith and of course I told him I was Catholic and challenged him on his beliefs about Catholics.

He asked me about something the Pope recently said, “Christ failed on the cross” but didn’t give me the context. He said that in any context he couldn’t imagine Christ failing in any way on the cross.

When I looked up the context it seemed that the Pope was saying that from a secular point of view, he died and was captured and crucified, and so seemed to fail. Many expected he would be a political messiah restoring the earthly kingdom and earthly power.

What is your take on this? Have you heard of that quote?

 

[Teek]

Based on your detailed response, I am curious as to what motivated you to start thinking so deeply about a short remark by our Pope. Hypostases, etc. Did you study theology, or philosophy, or come to the Church from some other religious tradition where you read up on this a lot and think about it?

Yes. And the Trinity is the central mystery of our faith.

232 Christians are baptized "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"53 Before receiving the sacrament, they respond to a three-part question when asked to confess the Father, the Son and the Spirit: “I do.” "The faith of all Christians rests on the Trinity."54

233 **Christians are baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: not in their names,**55 for there is only one God, the almighty Father, his only Son and the Holy Spirit: the Most Holy Trinity.

234 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. It is the mystery of God in himself. It is therefore the source of all the other mysteries of faith, the light that enlightens them. It is the most fundamental and essential teaching in the “hierarchy of the truths of faith”.56. The whole history of salvation is identical with the history of the way and the means by which the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, reveals himself to men “and reconciles and unites with himself those who turn away from sin”.57

 

[Teek]

had some guy try to tell me on some other thread that using the shamrock to represent the Trinity is heresy (given that I am Irish-American and that the shamrock design is present in dozens of Catholic churches as a Trinity representation, I found this to be an idea truly from outer space) and now we have you worrying that it is “dangerous” to not think about the Trinity in exactly the correct way. How can you practice your faith if you are going to see danger under every bush like that? Love the one God, love the three persons of the Trinity, the balance takes care of itself. Simples.

The Shamrock was not heretical. It was incomplete. It was a start.

The Church, not me, is clear that it is dangerous to ignore either the unity or the triune reality of God.

 

[Teek]

I accept that not everyone’s mind works like mine and that people have a wide variety of scholarly interests, concerns, and paths they take to the Church. . . To me it is a simple concept. Believe and there is no danger involved. . .
and now we have you worrying that it is “dangerous” to not think about the Trinity in exactly the correct way. How can you practice your faith if you are going to see danger under every bush like that?

You accept that people have a wide variety of paths they take to the Church, but my approach from who I am and how I come to faith is questionable and an obstacle.

[For the record, in the above quote I removed parts of the full quote. I did not find the full context to be particularly edifying, and I wanted to be clear in which parts of the quote I am referring to. If you want the full quote, please click the arrow in the top right corner of the quote field.]

 

[adamhovey1988]

I need remind the OP that this is a Catholic forum.

 

[Teek]

When I looked up the context it seemed that the Pope was saying that from a secular point of view, he died and was captured and crucified, and so seemed to fail. Many expected he would be a political messiah restoring the earthly kingdom and earthly power.

What is your take on this? Have you heard of that quote?

Yes. Someone in my RCIA class asked about that. That one was like “Who am I to judge?”

It wasn’t what he was saying at all.

The quote in question:

“If at times, our efforts and works seem to fail and not produce fruit,
we need to remember that we are followers of Jesus Christ,
and His life, humanly speaking, ended in failure, the failure of the cross.”

In this case, he specifically says “humanly speaking,” which leaves you thoughtful about how God’s way of thinking contrasts the human way of thinking. It calls to mind the King in a manger, to be greatest you must be least, etc. It reassures you that, like the Cross, even our failures can be something used for the Kingdom of Heaven in ways we cannot even imagine.

It was very beautiful.

Even out of context.

To make it even begin to sound bad, you have to excise out “humanly speaking” from the middle of a sentence and the beginning half of the sentence. Then it says, “Jesus Christ, and His life, ended in failure, the failure of the cross.”

People did that. He did not say that.

That editing was a deliberate deception.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I see. I accept that this is super-important to you, but I think you might be overthinking this whole concept a bit.

Maybe speak with a priest if you continue to have these fears.

There are times when “knowledge” gets in the way. There’s a reason why Jesus said we needed to become like little children when we approach the Lord.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

You accept that people have a wide variety of paths they take to the Church, but my approach from who I am and how I come to faith is questionable and an obstacle.

From where I sit, it just doesn’t look like it’s doing you any good. It made you afraid, made you spend a lot of energy and time thinking about this that you could have spent on something like helping others or even just enjoying the day with your family, and now it’s causing you to have conflicts on an Internet forum. Not seeing the benefit to it. If you find it helpful, then that’s your call to make.

I’m out…God bless

 

[AveOTheotokos]

I didn’t quote that part because there wasn’t anything in it that was concerning—not because I was hiding it. I was quoting the part that had me concerned.

You always have to look at the whole picture for context. For example, I could start a thread called “Man scares me” and say something like:

What do you say when a man says this?

“But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.”

Please do not reply immediately if you want to know who said it before you reply. I wanted to hear people’s response to what was said, and so I deliberately did not provide that information. Please think of how you would reply, and then look, and then reply if you still desire to do so.

I feel that it does not matter who said it, if it is wrong or needs explanation then it simply is or does. Others felt I was being deceptive, and that was not my intention.

Without knowing the context, what else was said, and who said it, we are left to gather that this is a ruthless and violent man who declares those who don’t want him to reign over them as enemies and calls for their slaying.

Knowing who said something is important in determining their frame of reference and their perspective. If you cherry pick a quote and strip out all other information, then anyone can be taken wrong.

Even Jesus.

 

[Teek]

I see. I accept that this is super-important to you, but I think you might be overthinking this whole concept a bit.

Maybe speak with a priest if you continue to have these fears.

There are times when “knowledge” gets in the way. There’s a reason why Jesus said we needed to become like little children when we approach the Lord.

It is very important to me, and I have studied long and hard to understand what I can of the Trinity, what different Church Fathers say, what Saints and Doctor’s of the Church say, what documents from the ecumenical councils say. It is infinitely out of my grasp, and yet infinitely fruitful to try to comprehend it. There is always more depth to it.

I spoke with my priest, already. He said to pray very much for the Pope, and try to think about it.

We approach God in trust. I pray that I never stop doing so. We do not have to approach every statement made by the Pope with that level of trust. The statements made in continuity with the teaching of the Church: yes we absolutely do because it is the Holy Church, led by the Holy spirit. That is putting our child-like trust in God.

 

[Spyridon]

My last couple posts were unacceptably short tempered and inappropriately confrontational, so I deleted them.

I apologize @Teek, maybe my initial impressions of your motives and intent were in fact wrong.

I forgive you for any hostility or wrongs you may have committed against me,

And I hope you forgive me any hostility or wrongs I committed against you.

 

[AveOTheotokos]

That is putting our child-like trust in God.

Trust in God.
Trust in Jesus.
Trust in what Jesus told us:

Matthew 16:18-19
18 “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

If you trust Jesus and what He said, then you can trust that the Holy Spirit will protect both His Church and the Vicar of Christ on earth from leading the faithful astray.

Satan and death will never prevail against it.

If you can’t trust that, then you can’t trust anything He said and Catholicism and Christianity is just a fanciful tale to make people feel better about death.

Trust in the Church.
Trust in the Holy Spirit.
Trust in Jesus.
Trust in the Father.
Trust in God.

 

[Teek]

If you trust Jesus and what He said, then you can trust that the Holy Spirit will protect both His Church and the Vicar of Christ on earth from leading the faithful astray.

Satan and death will never prevail against it.

If you can’t trust that, then you can’t trust anything He said and Catholicism and Christianity is just a fanciful tale to make people feel better about death.

Trust in the Church.

Trust in the Holy Spirit.

Trust in Jesus.

Trust in the Father.

Trust in God.

Church History is full of Popes who did and said wrong and deplorable things.

The Church is holy. Men are fallible. The Pope’s infallibility is not in question under the proper circumstances.

If the Pope says something contrary to the faith we are not bound to it.

 

[De_Maria]

Bishop scared me

‘But do you believe?’: 'Yes! Yes! '; ‘What do you believe in?’; ‘In God!’; ‘But what is God for you?’; ‘God, God’. But God does not exist: Do not be shocked! So God does not exist! There is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, they are persons, they are not some vague idea in the clouds … This God spray does not exist! The three persons exist!”

I think that those of us who do not speak to God could find that frightening.

If I might paraphrase what I think our Great Pope is saying, it is that we must be certain in our faith.

Whether you believe it or not, I’ve heard people ask Catholics, “Do you believe in God?” And some of them will answer, “I don’t know.”

I think Pope Francis is addressing those type of Catholics who have a vague idea about what God means. He is saying that God is a personable God, in whom you can confide. He is saying that God really loves you and wants to be part of your life.

 

[AveOTheotokos]

What I’m saying is don’t worry about cherry picked quotes taken out of context and then think the Pope is spreading errors.

Yes, there have some been some Popes who said wrong and deplorable things, but never once has one changed Church teaching.

The Holy Spirit will protect. Don’t worry about random worrisome cherry picked quotes.

Don’t worry at all.

 

[De_Maria]

It is what he said.

I am defending Catholic doctrine on the Trinity, defending our God. I should be in perfect agreement with the Pope when I say there is One God, in three Persons.

Are you are saying what I am saying is wrong, that I am wrong to vehemently object to someone saying something that is that contrary to Catholic teaching?

If I say, “it rained cats and dogs”, what do you believe I said?

If you’re Catholic, you believe the Pope is also. And that his words should be interpreted as a Catholic.

For example, St. Paul said, “not by righteous works are we saved.”

Protestants take that and say that we are saved by faith alone.

But we’re Catholic. We go to St. James, 2:24 and quote where it says, “we are justified by works”.

Anti-Christians will take both and say, “see the Bible contradicts itself”.

But we’re Catholic. We harmonize the two and understand that in one, St. Paul is making reference to the Sacraments. While in the other, St. James is making reference to commandments.

So, we can turn to St. Paul saying in Rom 2:13, “doers are just before God”. Thus proving that he also teaches salvation by faith and works.

Therefore, as a Catholic, we can listen to the Pope’s words and harmonize them with a true Catholic understanding.

Let me ask you, why wouldn’t a Catholic give the Pope the benefit of the doubt?