Bishop Schneider backs the SSPX

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  1. VII has been clarified for 50 years. As time goes on popes or other officials will continue to comment on certain aspects.
  2. In our lifetime and long after, VII on the whole will never be clearer than it is today.
  3. Good people will continue to draw guidance for positive things. Bad people will continue to misuse it (this seems to be decreasing, but will never stop. The Earth is salted with those people). No “clarification” will end misuse of VII.
  4. Those who keep focusing only on VII tend to discount or ignore the tremendous spiritual teaching of JPII, and other recent popes. The SSPX didn’t intend to ignore JPII or Benedict, but the overall climate of skepticism towards Rome contributed to ignoring the popes. Popes in recent years are addressing problems not envisioned during VII.
    VII gets blamed, and credited, for way too much.
  5. Those who keep saying “wait for THE CLARIFICATION” are offering one more reason for families or clergy to postpone coming over to Rome.
I think that the pertinent question may be this: are the Vll documents simply ambiguous, which is a big problem in itself, or do they really lend themselves to be interpreted in a way which goes against the prior teachings of the Church? Bp. Athansius Schneider believes the former is the case, and the SSPX believes the latter is the case. It’s two separate concerns, and it’s a bit difficult for us laypersons to know which view is the correct one. It’s confusing! And some will believe that neither scenario is the case, and that the Vll documents are perfectly in line with previous Church teaching.

You mention above that no clarification will end the misuse of Vll. But what, in your opinion, has been misused? Maybe that’s a really difficult question to answer.
 
When we have our diocesan prolife gatherings, or meetings for religious liberty, I am pretty sure none of the laity are from SSPX.
That could very well be. In my experience, diocesan gatherings, be it pro-life, funerals, memorials, etc often involve a Mass. And right there you’ve lent yourself to possible, if not probable, split. It’s silly, I know, but est quod est.
 
I think that the pertinent question may be this: are the Vll documents simply ambiguous, which is a big problem in itself, or do they really lend themselves to be interpreted in a way which goes against the prior teachings of the Church? Bp. Athansius Schneider believes the former is the case, and the SSPX believes the latter is the case. It’s two separate concerns, and it’s a bit difficult for us laypersons to know which view is the correct one. It’s confusing! And some will believe that neither scenario is the case, and that the Vll documents are perfectly in line with previous Church teaching.

You mention above that no clarification will end the misuse of Vll. But what, in your opinion, has been misused? Maybe that’s a really difficult question to answer.
Presumably, if there are any ambiguities, VII should be understood in light of clearer previous Church teaching.

There’s no reason to treat VII documents in isolation.
 
Presumably, if there are any ambiguities, VII should be understood in light of clearer previous Church teaching.

There’s no reason to treat VII documents in isolation.
Can you point to an official Church document which clearly shows how Vll is to be understood in the light of clear previous Church teaching?
 
I do see the response to this issue from the SSPX to be most unhelpful though. Think of the loss to the Church if leaders like Cardinal Burke, Bishop Bruskewitz, AB Chaput, just to name a few, broke with the Church because of the prevalence of this liberal heterodoxy. Their vital ministry would not exist.
True, but, to be fair, none of these went through exactly what the Archbishop went through in the 70’s, in trying to preserve the traditionalist ideas. I often point to the reneging of the contract the AB signed with the Vatican back in 1988 as the root cause of today’s situation but I wonder if it’s not much more than that.
 
Presumably, if there are any ambiguities, VII should be understood in light of clearer previous Church teaching.

There’s no reason to treat VII documents in isolation.
Can you point to an official Church document which clearly shows how Vll is to be understood in the light of clear previous Church teaching?
What are the supposed ambiguities? I don’t find the documents particularly ambiguous. To the extent there are any ambiguities in the VII docs, the Catechism is pretty clear.

I think the real issue is that the SSPX disagrees with certain of the Church’s teachings. But instead of simply saying they dissent, they claim the teachings are ambiguous and need clarification.
 
Can you point to an official Church document which clearly shows how Vll is to be understood in the light of clear previous Church teaching?
Read what Pope Benedict 16 has had to say about it.

Is there an official document explaining the official documents?

No - as that is a cat-and-mouse game being played. As Pope Benedict himself said, the documents of Vatican 2 need to be read in light of the prior 1900+ years of documents - and that should come as no surprise to anybody.

For starters, the documents of Vatican 2 were not written for the laity - they were written for the ordained; bishops to lead their priests, and priests, to implement.

And as I have noted, outside Europe and North America, the bishops have been able to implement the documents without all the issues, trouble, and headaches of the bishops of Europe and North America, because they (the other bishops) lived in societies which did not have all the freedoms which North America and Europe have had, and have so badly abused.

Poland is a prime example of a country which went about implementing the documents, without the dissent from both the far liberal end of the spectrum, and the far conservative end.

Why is there no “Document explaining the documents”?

Because the vast number of bishops of the world don’t have the problems the far conservative element has, and because most bishops are not flaming liberals. Most of them are simply trying to evangelize, to bring the Gospel to all, and to implement the understandings set out in V2 documents.

It might be helpful, when a bishop has problems with V2, to remember that the documents were written by and under the authority of bishops, and @ 2,000 bishops read and voted on them. The vast majority of the bishops had no problem understanding what was being written; a miniscule number did. Others may have disagreed with the documents as written (somewhere, I believe, there are tallies of the votes), but that does not in and of itself mean they felt the documents were wrong. Rather, they might have chosen to say the matter differently, and that may have been going not so far, or going further. Trying to weigh the vote against, without knowing the “why” behind the vote" is a fools game and totally without merit.

Just an observation, and a caveat.

The caveat first: My next comments are not reflective of any intent to label the SSPX.

The observation: in 2,000 years, the Church has been pretty clear about the Gospels, and from time to time, someone has “gone off the rails”, Arius and Martin Luther being easy examples. And each time the Church has answered them.

And each time the Church has answered them, others, following the leader, have continued to go “off the rails”.

This time, we have had the document first, and then a bunch of people going off on their own tangent. As to answers to them, for example, Liberation Theology has been addressed, although most in North America are not intimately wound up in the matter.

The four bishops have been addressed. I am not saying they are heretics, as that is so far above my pay grade I don’t spend time considering the matter. However, there are limits of how long someone can go around accusing the Church of heresy in veiled language, before there is a permanent split. And that split does not need official action by the Church, or official labeling.

Is there going to be reconciliation? Well, we are still working on the Lutheran/Church split.
 
Is there going to be reconciliation? Well, we are still working on the Lutheran/Church split.
You evidently believe that the SSPX are in schism. I think that Bp. Athansius Schneider would disagree with you.
 
Here is a video of Bp. Athanasius Schneider saying that there needs to be a clarification due to ambiguities:

youtube.com/watch?v=z8iBeaGeuxw
Can you tell me what the ambiguities are? Does he identify them? (I will try to get to this long video at some point, but can’t right now.)

I realize that some people claim there are ambiguities, but I don’t see them. I have read all of the VII documents and the Catechism. I don’t find them unclear.
 
Can you tell me what the ambiguities are? Does he identify them? (I will try to get to this long video at some point, but can’t right now.)

I realize that some people claim there are ambiguities, but I don’t see them. I have read all of the VII documents and the Catechism. I don’t find them unclear.
You’ll have to watch the video. Sorry. It’s far easier to disagree with me than it is to disagree with a Bishop of the Church.
 
You evidently believe that the SSPX are in schism. I think that Bp. Athansius Schneider would disagree with you.
Cardinal Mueller has said publicly that the SSPX are “schismatic”, and he also made it clear that this was not an official determination and declaration of schism, but rather an assessment of their positions viz a viz the Church. And the Cardinal is not a “loose cannon on the deck”, firing off at will. He is not head of the dicastery because he is casual with statements.

And less anyone go off about the Cardinal being a liberal, he just took on, openly and explicitly, his current problems with the LCWR.

His comment: "as reported in the Corriere della Sera on December 22, 2013 : “The canonical excommunication of the bishops for their illegal ordinations was revoked, but a de facto sacramental excommunication remains for their schism; they put themselves out of communion with the Church. After that we are not closing the door and never will, but we are inviting them to be reconciled. But they too must change their attitude, accept the conditions of the Catholic Church, and the Supreme Pontiff as the definitive criterion for membership.”
 
You’ll have to watch the video. Sorry. It’s far easier to disagree with me than it is to disagree with a Bishop of the Church.
Again, I’ll watch it when I can. But are you saying you don’t know what the supposed ambiguities are? If they are important enough for whole groups of people to separate themselves from the Church, I would think that they would be readily identifiable.
 
Again, I’ll watch it when I can. But are you saying you don’t know what the supposed ambiguities are? If they are important enough for whole groups of people to separate themselves from the Church, I would think that they would be readily identifiable.
Right.
 
Cardinal Mueller has said publicly that the SSPX are “schismatic”, and he also made it clear that this was not an official determination and declaration of schism, but rather an assessment of their positions viz a viz the Church. And the Cardinal is not a “loose cannon on the deck”, firing off at will. He is not head of the dicastery because he is casual with statements.

And less anyone go off about the Cardinal being a liberal, he just took on, openly and explicitly, his current problems with the LCWR.

His comment: "as reported in the Corriere della Sera on December 22, 2013 : “The canonical excommunication of the bishops for their illegal ordinations was revoked, but a de facto sacramental excommunication remains for their schism; they put themselves out of communion with the Church. After that we are not closing the door and never will, but we are inviting them to be reconciled. But they too must change their attitude, accept the conditions of the Catholic Church, and the Supreme Pontiff as the definitive criterion for membership.”
Are they excommunicated or not?
 
You evidently believe that the SSPX are in schism. I think that Bp. Athansius Schneider would disagree with you.
Bishop Schneider does not sit on the dicastery in charge of that matter. His opinion is unofficial; theirs is official. You can’t play “pick and choose” on opinions, casting around until you find one that agrees with you. When the officials in charge of the matter issue an opinion, it is past time to be looking for support elsewhere.

It is not my opinion; it is the opinion of those who decide such matters.
 
Are they excommunicated or not?
The bishops are not excommunicated, and no official excommunication “went down a level” to the priests.

According to New Advent, Catholic Encyclopedia: “Schism (from the Greek schisma, rent, division) is, in the language of theology and canon law, the rupture of ecclesiastical union and unity, i.e. either the act by which one of the faithful severs as far as in him lies the ties which bind him to the social organization of the Church and make him a member of the mystical body of Christ, or the state of dissociation or separation which is the result of that act.”

And further: “Schism, therefore, is usually mixed, in which case, considered from a moral standpoint, its perversity is chiefly due to the heresy which forms part of it. In its other aspect and as being purely schism it is contrary to charity and obedience; to the former, because it severs the ties of fraternal charity, to the latter, because the schismatic rebels against the Divinely constituted hierarchy.”

The article is worth a read.
 
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