Bishop Schneider: Catholics are not called to blind obedience to the Pope

  • Thread starter Thread starter Wandile
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hmmm, I dunno. Do you honestly think Cardinal Tagle is going to be an outspoken defender of orthodoxy when he becomes Pope? Or more of the same?
Cardinal Tagle would be a great successor to Pope Francis. He is known as the Francis of Asia and is open to the callings of the Spirit as is Pope Francis.

There is speculation Tagle will take over the CDF when the current head leaves. That would be a significant step for him and further put him at the top of the candidates for next Pope.

Francis is leading us to a transformational church. A Church of the people. A merciful Church that accompanies the people in their walk. A truly universal church. Tagle would be one of several Cardinals who could carry forth this renewal of the Church to its next stage.

Pope Francis can only do so much. One thing he may start is a relook at the nature of the priesthood - that could well begin at the next synod. Issues of celibacy and more critically the all-male priesthood will be looked at anew. Not necessarily under Francis, but certainly under his successor. Tagle would be a prophetic choice to lead the Church in those discussions and that discernment.
 
*“Those who blindly and indiscriminately defend every decision of the supreme Pontiff are the very ones who do most to undermine the authority of the Holy See - they destroy instead of strengthening its foundations.”
  • Bishop Melchior Cano, theologian of the Council of Trent*
This captures exactly what I was trying to get across…
Some on this forum revere the Pope as a Mormon reveres the living prophet. That is not authentic Catholicism. We have seen a surge in hyper-devotion to the Pope in a way that was literally not possible in previous centuries. It began, I think, with the advent of modern media (newspapers then radio then TV and now the internet) over the past 150 years or so… perhaps such “hyper-devotion” is great when we have a Pope who is literally a living saint (St. JPII comes to mind)…but not all popes are such perfect models.
 
This captures exactly what I was trying to get across…
Some on this forum revere the Pope as a Mormon reveres the living prophet. That is not authentic Catholicism. We have seen a surge in hyper-devotion to the Pope in a way that was literally not possible in previous centuries. It began, I think, with the advent of modern media (newspapers then radio then TV and now the internet) over the past 150 years or so… perhaps such “hyper-devotion” is great when we have a Pope who is literally a living saint (St. JPII comes to mind)…but not all popes are such perfect models.
The reverse can be said of those who accuse the Pope. They have no respect for him or themselves or the position that he holds.

Be very careful what you say and think of the Pope as my Priest has advised for my own spiritual edification. I will be answerable to Christ at the end of my days. Discipline your tongue. It is not part of our realm of responsibility, leave it to the powers that be.

What spiritually edifying purpose does it serve to idolise or criticise the Pope publicly and continually? Nothing, it’s a selfish choice. It serves no purpose and has no tangible outcomes except to put motivations on trial.
 
Okay I’ll provide them

Yes Pope Honorius was not a monothelite. Honorius used “one will” in relation to Christ’s human nature and not, as did the monothelites, to his person (divinity and humanity).

However he was guilty of not stopping the rise of error which is just as bad! Pope Francis is in a similar position as he refuses to speak out against heretical interpretations of Amoris Laetitia

*Pope Leo II

:Honorius, who did not, as became the apostolic authority, extinguish the flame of heretical teaching in its first beginning, but fostered it by his negligence"* (Leonis II ad Episcopos Hispanie in the Catholic Encyclopedia, 7:455; emphasis added).

And Pope St. Felix III

"Not to oppose error is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it; and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them.”

And with regards to pope John XXII : he was a heretic and he taught privately against established doctrine. The pope is protected from binding the church to error but can hold erroneous opinions as pope John XXII who had to be formally corrected before he recanted his error.

*Pope Adrian VI

"If by the Roman Church you mean its head or pontiff, it is beyond question that he can err even in matters touching the faith. He does this when he teaches heresy by his own judgment or decretal. In truth, many Roman pontiffs were heretics. The last of them was Pope John XXII"*
So it is clear that Pope Honorius I did not teach any error, but as Pope Leo II stated, was guilty of negligence in allowing the monothelite heresy to spread.

That leaves the only accusation of a Pope teaching heresy as Pope John XXII. As I quoted from Catholic Encyclopedia earlier, Pope John XXII wrote his view of the Beatific Vision before he became Pope. He never wrote this view once he became Pope. And it is merely alleged (by whom exactly?) that he “advanced” this view in his sermons after becoming Pope. Without an authentic transcript of these alleged sermons, that is no basis whatsoever to accuse a Pope of heresy.

And what is this “formal correction” you speak of? Here is the whole quote from Catholic Encyclopedia again:

“In the last years of John’s pontificate there arose a dogmatic conflict about the Beatific Vision, which was brought on by himself, and which his enemies made use of to discredit him. Before his elevation to the Holy See, he had written a work on this question, in which he stated that the souls of the blessed departed do not see God until after the Last Judgment. After becoming pope, he advanced the same teaching in his sermons. In this he met with strong opposition, many theologians, who adhered to the usual opinion that the blessed departed did see God before the Resurrection of the Body and the Last Judgment, even calling his view heretical. A great commotion was aroused in the University of Paris when the General of the Minorites and a Dominican tried to disseminate there the pope’s view. Pope John wrote to King Philip IV on the matter (November, 1333), and emphasized the fact that, as long as the Holy See had not given a decision, the theologians enjoyed perfect freedom in this matter. In December, 1333, the theologians at Paris, after a consultation on the question, decided in favour of the doctrine that the souls of the blessed departed saw God immediately after death or after their complete purification; at the same time they pointed out that the pope had given no decision on this question but only advanced his personal opinion, and now petitioned the pope to confirm their decision. John appointed a commission at Avignon to study the writings of the Fathers, and to discuss further the disputed question. In a consistory held on 3 January, 1334, the pope explicitly declared that he had never meant to teach aught contrary to Holy Scripture or the rule of faith and in fact had not intended to give any decision whatever. Before his death he withdrew his former opinion, and declared his belief that souls separated from their bodies enjoyed in heaven the Beatific Vision.”

newadvent.org/cathen/08431a.htm

As for Pope Adrian VI, he wrote his view of Pope John XXII before becoming Pope.

You are grasping at straws to find the slightest trace of heresy in the 2000 year stewardship of Saint Peter’s successors, when in fact the remarkable 2000 year history of unblemished orthodoxy of the Bishop of Rome should be cause for celebration and thanksgiving to God who has preserved the Vicar of Jesus Christ free from error for two millennia.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1037146

And lastly, how dare you accuse of His Holiness Pope Francis I of being in a “similar postiion” to the negligence of Honorius I.
 
The bottom line for many on these boards: “If what the pope says agrees with what I believe, I will obey the pope; if what he says disagrees with what I believe, I will disobey.” (And not only disobey…not even have an open mind to his thoughts.)
 
*“Those who blindly and indiscriminately defend every decision of the supreme Pontiff are the very ones who do most to undermine the authority of the Holy See - they destroy instead of strengthening its foundations.”
  • Bishop Melchior Cano, theologian of the Council of Trent*
This has already been addressed on these forums:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1042581

Melchior Cano has never been canonized, nor have I seen any saint or church document approvingly cite his above quote. And the Pope at the time of Melchior Cano, Paul IV, called him a “Son of Perdition.”

Quit grasping at straws in a vain attempt to attack Saint Peter. We should all be humbly submitting to his successor, His Holiness Pope Francis I.
 
The Church is not a democracy. It is a Kingdom. Jesus Christ is our King. The Pope is the King’s Vicar. We do best to obey the King’s Vicar, lest the King come and bring us to an evil end, and lay out His Kingdom to others who will render Him fruit in due season. Matthew 21:41

“20 Amen, amen I say to you, he that receiveth whomsoever I send, receiveth me; and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me.” John 13:20
 
The Church is not a democracy. It is a Kingdom.
This comes as a surprise to many people who have representative democracy ingrained as the only way to live.

We needed to add a person to our parish council a while back and the council got tied in a knot because “we have to nominate candidates and have an election and count the little scraps of paper etc…”.

I said to the pastor “why don’t you appoint the person you think is best?”
😃
Worked out fine.
 
The bottom line for many on these boards: “If what the pope says agrees with what I believe, I will obey the pope; if what he says disagrees with what I believe, I will disobey.” (And not only disobey…not even have an open mind to his thoughts.)
Unfortunately you are right in some cases. Although I get what they are saying in that Pope is not above reproach. People have free will, they can accuse and criticise the Pope, I just think Catholics need to be very careful.

As my Priest admonished me once… it’s not our place, we should focus on our daily walk in faith, our parish life and practicing the Sacraments, pray for the Church, pray for the Pope etc. It’s dangerous to our spiritual life to focus on attacking the Pope, we have to discipline our mind, heart and tongues, even if we genuinely think we are right because if we are wrong we have to answer to Christ for attacking his Vicar and that’s a conversation I want no part of. :eek:
 
The Church is not a democracy. It is a Kingdom. Jesus Christ is our King. The Pope is the King’s Vicar. We do best to obey the King’s Vicar, lest the King come and bring us to an evil end, and lay out His Kingdom to others who will render Him fruit in due season. Matthew 21:41

“20 Amen, amen I say to you, he that receiveth whomsoever I send, receiveth me; and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me.” John 13:20
In the words of Arturo Sosa Abasca

*So then, there would have to be a lot of reflection on what Jesus really said. At that time, no one had a recorder to take down his words. *
 
The reverse can be said of those who accuse the Pope. They have no respect for him or themselves or the position that he holds.

Be very careful what you say and think of the Pope as my Priest has advised for my own spiritual edification. I will be answerable to Christ at the end of my days. Discipline your tongue. It is not part of our realm of responsibility, leave it to the powers that be.

What spiritually edifying purpose does it serve to idolise or criticise the Pope publicly and continually? Nothing, it’s a selfish choice. It serves no purpose and has no tangible outcomes except to put motivations on trial.
Fair enough, though I haven’t criticized the reigning pope in this thread. I am discussing hypotheticals and the possibility for a pope to err (as has happened historically). As I’ve been saying, I think hyper-devotion to the individual person who happens to be the current Pope is not necessarily healthy - outside of those cases where it is clear to all that he is a living saint. I’m a big fan of Pope Benedict…but I wouldn’t advocate that sort of hyper-devotion to him either. Like I said earlier, it wasn’t even possible prior to the advent of modern mass media. What did an English peasant in the 14th century know of the Pope in distant Rome? It was his local bishop who mattered. Of course the local bishop may be in contact with the Pope.
 
Click HERE for the full article
“adding that blind obedience is characteristic of a ‘dictatorship,’ not the Church.”

That is an interesting argument. I can see someone using that same argument about any number of things: birth control, climate change, gun violence, increased govt supports of the poor, capital punishment, etc.

Unless it comes directly from the 10 Commandments or from Jesus’ mouth, everything written by man, infallible or not, is truly tainted by biases, interpretations, politics, history and experiences. Blind obedience to anything coming from a human hand or mouth is always dangerous. That is why we must be grateful that the Holy Spirit resides in each of us.

I see a conservative revival that is reenergizing white supremacy in the US, that is dismantling the EU and that is driving the public shaming of the Pope. Those who are trying to get the Pope to abandon the love and inclusive nature of Christ are empowered by their divisiveness. It’s cool to go rogue in big, very public ways. Normal channels, etiquette and compromise, while still around, are less in vogue. We have a Pope who asks himself, if a refugee and his family are fleeing the horrors of war in their country, what would Jesus do? Would he shut his borders or open his home? The Pope is a simple man who is in touch with the very heart of his Church’s mission. He knows it is not rocket science. Religion is not a scholarly pursuit. It is a human endeavor, forever mired in error, undue complexity and a web of sin. We are better Christians if we follow the words of Christ, making the best use of religious matrices molded by human hands. The Church assists us in our communion with God. Neither the Church nor the Pope can offer assured pathways. There is no magic plan. We leave magic to the pagans. We have faith for one reason. And that’s because we don’t know for sure… about anything related to the nature of God. If we did, God would move from faith to fact.

You may ask yourself why I list myself as Catholic when surely I don’t sound like one. And I would venture to say that I’m more attuned to the thinking of Bishop Schneider than most. The problem with the Bishop is that, in my humble opinion, he does not truly understand the significance of his words. He is right, but for the wrong reason. And in that, there is hope. No, the Catholic Church is not perfect. But it is the most beautiful thing to behold. She struggles and sacrifices every day to help the poor, the sick and the homeless. We are the best thing going when it comes to love in this world. We are not just pew sitters who throw money into coffers and who quote teachings/traditions and demand obedience of fellow sinners like robotic drill sargents. We are alive and active participants in the Kingdom of God. We sweat and get our hands dirty in the service of others. We open our hearts, homes and pockets without fear or malice. And our hearts ache for every person who needs to feel the compassion of God. The pope gets this. We can only hope that the roadblocks come home.
 
Fair enough, though I haven’t criticized the reigning pope in this thread. I am discussing hypotheticals and the possibility for a pope to err (as has happened historically). As I’ve been saying, I think hyper-devotion to the individual person who happens to be the current Pope is not necessarily healthy - outside of those cases where it is clear to all that he is a living saint. I’m a big fan of Pope Benedict…but I wouldn’t advocate that sort of hyper-devotion to him either. Like I said earlier, it wasn’t even possible prior to the advent of modern mass media. What did an English peasant in the 14th century know of the Pope in distant Rome? It was his local bishop who mattered. Of course the local bishop may be in contact with the Pope.
You have yet to cite a single saint or church document to support your views. Why should we take them seriously?
 
So do you suppose that lifesitenews sends someone 5,600 miles to Kazakhstan to find a bishop willing to so openly criticize the Pope, or do they just keep him on speed dial?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top