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LoyalViews
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Dissent is scary, this bishop is getting himself into some hot water! _
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1ke
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Her remarks are almost **exactly **corresponding to these paragraphs in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the documents from which these paragraphs are quoted:
839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, “the first to hear the Word of God.” The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”, “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”
840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”
839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, “the first to hear the Word of God.” The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”, “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”
840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”
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1ke
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He is a she. And she is not a Catholic bishop. She is a bishop in the Episcopal church.
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cspb56
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From A CAF Article
I agree with the previous poster. What she is saying is pretty much what the church teaches.
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Zach82
Guest
She actually asserts the centrality of the Christian God to salvation in the sermon. Is that what you mean by “apostasy?”
Zach
Zach
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crazzeto
Guest
I can’t speak for her other teachings, but this one feels spot on. Certainly we can’t claim to know the fate of non-Christians… We should however try and make their chances a lot better by evangalizing them now while they’re living.
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Zach82
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This is typical of attacks on Bishop Jefferts-Schori. Somewhat ambiguous comments are taken out of context and presented in the least charitable light possible. Rise, repeat until the earth falls into the sun.
Zach
Zach
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Third_Day
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Not quite. She never says what you posted from the CAF article
"On the other hand, the Church has long made it clear that if a person rejects the Church with full knowledge and consent, he puts his soul in danger:
They cannot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it "
Someone who does not know of Christ, through no fault of their own, will be judged according to the law that is written on their heart. Ignorance of Christ and His Church is not a ticket to heaven. A persons best chance for salvation is in the Church established by Christ, the Catholic Church.
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Zach82
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She makes no mention of apostates at all in that clip. She only talks about non-Christians, and in that regard she is quite catholic.
Zach
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DorianGregorian
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She’s not a preacher, she’s a revolutionary.
She claims that God made promises to Islam, a religion which did not exist at the time of the Bible. So this statement is just wrong.
God fulfilled his promise to the Jews by sending Jesus. He owes no more to them, our first Pope called them to believe.
Yes the whole world has access to God, through Jesus Christ. Rather than emphasize this, she denies the necessity of Christ for salvation.
Denying this is not only an unchristian belief, but is at the heart of the doctrine of the Antichrists!
1 John 2:22-23 Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son, hath the Father also.
She claims that God made promises to Islam, a religion which did not exist at the time of the Bible. So this statement is just wrong.
God fulfilled his promise to the Jews by sending Jesus. He owes no more to them, our first Pope called them to believe.
Yes the whole world has access to God, through Jesus Christ. Rather than emphasize this, she denies the necessity of Christ for salvation.
Denying this is not only an unchristian belief, but is at the heart of the doctrine of the Antichrists!
1 John 2:22-23 Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son, hath the Father also.
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gurneyhalleck1
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Better duck, Dorian. There’s an army of angry Episcopalians comin’ your way, bro…criticizing Lady Katharine will get you in hot water LOL…way to go! 
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gurneyhalleck1
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You’re quite right. She frequently sympathizes with other religions and puts them on an equal footing with Christ. Jesus is a nice teacher for her, not much more. Antichrist is probably a good way of describing her diatribes.
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Zach82
Guest
Dorian, she hasn’t denied Jesus Christ at all, and even opens with explaining that she professes Jesus Christ as the salvation of the world. She does, however, say that God has a plan for non-Christians. If you listen more closely you will hear that Bishop Jefferts-Schori actually puts Jesus Christ at the center of those promises.
Listen with charity, not judgement.
Zach
Listen with charity, not judgement.
Zach
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Yggdrasil
Guest
That doesn’t seem to “preach apostasy” significantly more radically than the Catholic Church does:
“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”
, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (§16)Lumen Gentium
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DharmaBum
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Here we go again…the old Episcopalians are a bunch of nut jobs treatment. 
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Third_Day
Guest
Nowhere in her talk does she say anything close to what the Cathechism says:
CCC 847). This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too** may **achieve eternal salvation "
Non-Christians, who are ignorant of Christ do not have a free ticket to heaven. All have the moral obligation to seek the truth.
From the Catechism
1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.
1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, **the person is culpable **for the evil he commits
1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience"
In fairness to her, I would need to hear all of the talk to see if she is “quite” Catholic
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DharmaBum
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She can say that it boils down to that she needs to live a Christian life and lead by example and let God be the one who judges that situation, which was clearly stated (and I have heard this in person…this was a Q & A not a formal homily) and that is lost? Believe it or not what is stressed as important in my parish can be simply stated in the Nicene Creed and I didn’t hear anything contrary to that when Presiding Bishop Shori (I won’t be so flippant to put that in quotes) came to speak. No pagan rituals, no gay pride parades. I would assume that you profess the Nicene Creed as well? If so, where is the justification for taking shots at TEC and sit in a seat of judgement? It just continues to amaze me.
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Zach82
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Third day, you can’t just post your exact some post again and throw in some bolds and underlines. Bishop Jefferts Schori didn’t say anything about Christians who reject Christ. She only spoke of non-Christians, the majority of whom I would assume do NOT know that Jesus is the salvation of the world. She also never says that the salvation of non-Christians is assured, or that not knowing Christ is a particular advantage.
If you are going to use this clip to denounce this woman, you’re going to have to use what she actually says and not what you imagine she says.
Zach
If you are going to use this clip to denounce this woman, you’re going to have to use what she actually says and not what you imagine she says.
Zach
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Third_Day
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What was the last thing I said in my post? “In fairness to her, I would need to hear all of the talk to see if she is “quite” Catholic”
Invincible ignorance only applies to those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ or His Church. There are non-Christians that have heard of Christ and the claims of His Catholic Church but do not take the time to seek the truth… They cannot claim innocent ignorance.
Only God knows their heart and that is how they will be judged. This “bishop” is not truly ordained. She has no more authority to teach than you or I do.
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