Bishop Thomas Gumbleton at Syracuse, NY

[jay29]

From: syrdio.org/NewsStories.asp?id=1271

Is this correct???:

“We’re not a church of hierarchy. We’re a pilgrim church — a community of disciples of Jesus,” Gumbleton told the people at St. Lucy’s.** “And everyone is equal in the community of the disciples of Jesus.” He also said that the pope is the bishop of Rome, not the bishop of the world. “That might be in conflict with popular Catholic thinking. Most people think it goes ‘God, Christ, the pope, bishops, priest and laity.’ This view is false but it has taken deep root in popular Catholic thought.”**

Is this correct theology?

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Pax tecum!

No that is definitely not correct theology and Gumbleton should be publicly reprimanded by the other US bishops.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[RPConover]

Wow, that’s my diocese… wow… “Most people think it goes ‘God, Christ, the pope, bishops, priest and laity.’” So Jesus is less than God and the Holy Spirit doesn’t enter the picture at all in this hierarchy??? Glad he’s also here to tell us that the Bishop of Rome is the the “Bishop of the world”.

Gotta love that this is printed in a Catholic Newsletter without a condemnation and even more posted on the diocese website; which would lead one to believe the Bishop agrees.

 

[frommi]

It is correct theology insofar as church structure goes.

Check the documents…

A lot of folks still want to think of an individual bishop as ‘reporting’ to the pope…

But the college of bishops and the pope can’t exist without the other. Something Cardinal Ratzinger wrote several years ago.

There was a good deal of centralization under JPII that B16 is slowly rolling back.

A few weeks ago the CDF put a thelogian on notice about his writings as they referred to Jesus Christ. Note that the CDF did not tell the bishops what action to take against the theologian, they left it up to each bishop in each diocese to create a solution. Some could ban him, some may do nothing. That’s how it’s supposed to work.

The Pope should exercise his primacy (and often does) in those cases that affect the unity of the church.

You may not like Bishop Gumbleton but the theology he’s discussing here is correct.

 

[KathleenElsie]

While reading this I was reminded of the 30,000 + denominations of the Protestant Church. The fact is there are some things that all Catholics must believe to be Catholic. If you want to dispute this please read the CCC about a “Well Educated Conscious” not the feel good this is what I think one.

Also one of the best kept “PUBLIC” secrets is that when a bishop places his resignation with the Holy See it does not mean it will be accepted. They are usually accepted for health or conflict reasons.

 

[johnnykins]

From: syrdio.org/NewsStories.asp?id=1271

Is this correct???:

“We’re not a church of hierarchy. We’re a pilgrim church — a community of disciples of Jesus,” Gumbleton told the people at St. Lucy’s.** “And everyone is equal in the community of the disciples of Jesus.” He also said that the pope is the bishop of Rome, not the bishop of the world**. “That might be in conflict with popular Catholic thinking. Most people think it goes ‘God, Christ, the pope, bishops, priest and laity.’ This view is false but it has taken deep root in popular Catholic thought.”

Is this correct theology?

Yes - as far as it goes.

It should not, however, be misconstrued into sometihing it is not. Is everyone equal - sure, but some have different roles. The Pope is not greater than anyone else, but he has a particular role as Supreme Pontiff. Does it make him better or unequal? No, but that does not diminish his role or authority.

The Pope is clearly the Bishop of Rome. He is clearly not Bishop of the World. However, one need merely read the dogmatic pronouncements of Vatican I to see the role he has as Supreme Pontiff and the particular authority attendant to his position as Bishop of Rome and Pope.

God, Christ Pope, Bishop Laity??? If Catholics think that then they are mistaken, indeed. Christ, for example is God. He is the Second Person of the Trinity. He has a particular role, but is God nonetheless.

What Bishop Gumbleton is saying is certainly right - the question is will he explain it correctly or leave the impression that the Pope has no special role? That the laity have another role? That Bishops have another role? That the Supreme Pontiff has certain rights and authorty that the other bisops do not? If he does not adequately explain things, he will be doing a disservice. Frankly, this sort of thing has for 40 years confused the laity and, I think, often done so deliberately.

I wish I trusted Bishop Gumbleton, but I don’t. I fear he has an agenda at odds with the Church for his own reasons. I don’t like that I think this way - but I most certainly do think it. Just read the article - and you come away with a talk that in all respects appears to be a great disservice to the Church. (Assuming the article is accurate.)

 

[WanderAimlessly]

Nothing surprises me with RETIRED AUXILLARY-Bishop Gumbleton.

 

[ncjohn]

As far as the theology goes, the Pope has always been referred to as “first among equals”. While there is a primacy, it is not a hierarchical primacy in the way a corporation works.

Keep in mind that bishops were chosen, and mostly invested, by others than the Pope through most of Church history. It really wasn’t until around the time of the reformation that Popes were able to take on being the only ones only to iinvest bishops.

In the early Church they were mostly chosen by the community. For much of the time after that they were chosen bythe people or the ruler of whatever area they were in, and often invested by that same ruler. While the rulers were all Catholic that didn’t seem to bother the Church as much, though some Popes probably disliked it more than others, but when the reformation occured and many of the rulers were not Catholic, and some were actually anti-Catholic, the Popes began to insist that only they could invest bishops.

The Pope is unquestionably the head of the Church, but not really in the corporate hierarchy sense of having bishops “reporting” to him. And in some ways that has helped the Church, especially regarding the sex abuse scandals, since if there was that “reporting” structure the Church itself, and possibly the Pope himself, could find themselves legitimately named on the lawsuits just as corporations are when they exercise direct control over division officers who commit wrongdoing.

Peace,

 

[fix]

From: syrdio.org/NewsStories.asp?id=1271

Is this correct???:

“We’re not a church of hierarchy. We’re a pilgrim church — a community of disciples of Jesus,” Gumbleton told the people at St. Lucy’s.** “And everyone is equal in the community of the disciples of Jesus.” He also said that the pope is the bishop of Rome, not the bishop of the world**. “That might be in conflict with popular Catholic thinking. Most people think it goes ‘God, Christ, the pope, bishops, priest and laity.’ This view is false but it has taken deep root in popular Catholic thought.”

Is this correct theology?

**[

882

](http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3EpenWindow%28%27cr/882.htm%27%29**

The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter’s successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403

883 “The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, as its head.” As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff."404

895 "The power which they exercise personally in the name of Christ, is proper, ordinary, and immediate, although its exercise is ultimately controlled by the supreme authority of the Church."427 But the bishops should not be thought of as vicars of the Pope. His ordinary and immediate authority over the whole Church does not annul, but on the contrary confirms and defends that of the bishops. Their authority must be exercised in communion with the whole Church under the guidance of the Pope.

Now, it seems some want to diminish the authority of the pope. There is a hierarchy. We all are equal in dignity, but that does not mean we may contradict the teachings of the Pope.

 

[Meggie]

more wonderful happenings in the diocese of syracuse

 

[scylla]

frommi is correct in stating that we are all equal, the thing that Gumbleton left out is humility.

We submit not out of superiority but out of humility to unity and truth. Since the Pope is the successor of Peter the Bishops submit to him out of humility and obedience. They are all Bishops and the Pope isn’t the Boss, God is the Boss but he is the one universal pastor on earth who succeeds Peter, who the Bishops must submit to out of obedience to God.

Now this means they serve the Pope and the Pope serves them.

frommi is correct in that the Bishops have the accountability in each diocese and they need to do their job or else it just ends up as a pass the buck kinda thing. The Bishops are Shephards and need to act like it. They can’t just blame stuff on the Pope but need to do their job and act like real men, some do, some don’t.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[fix]

No, sorry what is in the article is incorrect.

Bishop Gumbleton spoke about Pope Paul VI’s commission to study the issue of birth control in 1964. The commission included laity and clergy and Bishop Gumbleton said their findings were overlooked. Instead the pope came out with his encyclical, Humanae Vitae, in 1968. Pope Paul VI, he said, squelched the sensus fidelium in that case. “People will not accept a teaching that is not credible, an argument that is not compelling,” he said

There is a hierarchy. The Pope has authority that is superior to our authority. If a bishop rejects the teaching of the Pope, on contraception, that bishop is wrong.

Also, the bishop seems to redefine what sensus fidelium really means.

 

[setter]

Bishop Thomas Gumbleton is a well established dissident amongst dissident clergy and theologians. The only thing reliable about Bishop Gumbleton is his consistent questioning of Papal authority in pursuit of his own liberal agenda.

 

[cspb56]

I don’t know much about Bishop Gumbleton himself but I found this interesting. Supposedly he was asked to retire from this position as pastor due to his age (I’m assuming past the retirement age-75). Here in the Chicago archdiocese a recent article in the catholic paper had an article about a retired bishop from Canada. He came to live in Chicago about 5-6 years ago. He is now 77 and just celebrated his 50th anniversary. He is also a pastor of a parish here in Chicago. Funny how this man is 2 years older than Gumbleton but is still pastoring and has no intention of retiring and Cardinal George is not asking him to. Seems like different rules for different people. This is sad indeed.

 

[frommi]

I don’t know much about Bishop Gumbleton himself but I found this interesting. Supposedly he was asked to retire from this position as pastor due to his age (I’m assuming past the retirement age-75). Here in the Chicago archdiocese a recent article in the catholic paper had an article about a retired bishop from Canada. He came to live in Chicago about 5-6 years ago. He is now 77 and just celebrated his 50th anniversary. He is also a pastor of a parish here in Chicago. Funny how this man is 2 years older than Gumbleton but is still pastoring and has no intention of retiring and Cardinal George is not asking him to. Seems like different rules for different people. This is sad indeed.

Of course the rules are different for different people…there is simply no way around that…and it happens in all kinds of dioceses for all different reasons.

No point in stopping the presses in that regard…

I mean, no one has yet explained to me how Cardinal Law can preside over one of the great abdications of moral responsibility in the John Geoghan case, and somehow he still has a hand in selecting the bishops for the world…that’s more frightening than Tom Gumbleton offering his take on papal primacy…IMO.

 

[cspb56]

I totally agree with you…forgot about the whole Cardinal Law thing. And people wonder why the church is in the shape it’s in.

 

[otjm]

Of course the rules are different for different people…there is simply no way around that…and it happens in all kinds of dioceses for all different reasons.

No point in stopping the presses in that regard…

I mean, no one has yet explained to me how Cardinal Law can preside over one of the great abdications of moral responsibility in the John Geoghan case, and somehow he still has a hand in selecting the bishops for the world…that’s more frightening than Tom Gumbleton offering his take on papal primacy…IMO.

Last I saw, Law was reduced to not much more than a local pastor of a church, if that. I don’t recall that he has any say in who will be appointed bidhop anywhwere.

Perhaps you mean that if there is another consistory, he will have a vote in who becomes pope? That, however, ends at a certain age (80, I seem to recall) and I don’t know his age.

If one really understands how Rome works, and what that means within the clerical community, it wasn’t far removed from enforced retirement. He is a Cardinal reduced to not much more than a door keeper in a parish. He got the message, and so did any and everyone else who understood what was said.

 

[frommi]

Last I saw, Law was reduced to not much more than a local pastor of a church, if that. I don’t recall that he has any say in who will be appointed bidhop anywhwere.

Perhaps you mean that if there is another consistory, he will have a vote in who becomes pope? That, however, ends at a certain age (80, I seem to recall) and I don’t know his age.

If one really understands how Rome works, and what that means within the clerical community, it wasn’t far removed from enforced retirement. He is a Cardinal reduced to not much more than a door keeper in a parish. He got the message, and so did any and everyone else who understood what was said.

He continues to serve on the congregation of bishops, the group that submits candidates to the Pope for the dioceses of the world. He also has membership on other congregations in Rome.

Until his superannuation in another 5 years or so, he will continue to have this influence on local churches around the world.

 

[Crumpy]

I don’t care how anybody splits hairs. A bishop like Gumbleton is just a shock-jock spouting his own ideas. There’s a common name for people who rebel against the Catholic Church, it’s “protestant.”

I’m not sure what Gumbleton and some other similar-minded bishops think they’re doing. If what he says is true, then what he says isn’t worth more than anybody else’s two-cent opinion. He can’t have it both ways, and people shouldn’t let him get away with it.

 

[Brendan]

I don’t know much about Bishop Gumbleton himself but I found this interesting. Supposedly he was asked to retire from this position as pastor due to his age (I’m assuming past the retirement age-75). Here in the Chicago archdiocese a recent article in the catholic paper had an article about a retired bishop from Canada. He came to live in Chicago about 5-6 years ago. He is now 77 and just celebrated his 50th anniversary. He is also a pastor of a parish here in Chicago. Funny how this man is 2 years older than Gumbleton but is still pastoring and has no intention of retiring and Cardinal George is not asking him to. Seems like different rules for different people. This is sad indeed.

The mandatory age of bishops is 75. The Holy See may permit them to remain in their See longer if the Pope sees fit.

Once their retirement is accepted, the must relinquish all responsibilities as well, which includes pastorships.

The Holy See may permit the (now retired) bishop to remain on as a pastor if the Pope see fit.

In the case of Bishop Gumbleton, the Pope did not see any advantage in allowing the bishop to continue in his role.

In the case of the Chicago bishop, the Pope obviously did see an advantage and has allowed the bishop to continue service in a pastoral role. If, however, the Pope decided that this bishop should retire, there is little that bishop or Cardinal George could say.