Bishop Trautman - "the use of 'dew' would evoke images of defecation for modern listeners"

[puzzleannie]

personally I think the good bishop is thinking like the average 4-year-old. reminds me of the protests about new Authorized Version of bible translation in the last c. in England from Anglicans who wondered about the phrasing of the psalm invoking protection upon “all those who do their business upon the waters”.

 

[Sheeniac]

Caveman, I am torn. The metaphor “dew” is powerful. In addition to your image you state, it shows that it comes or can come in non-traditional ways (i.e as opposed to rain).

Something this simple could be put in the bulletin for a couple of weeks, and maybe mentioned in the homily or announcements.

I pray for Bishop Trautperson.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Something this simple could be put in the bulletin for a couple of weeks, and maybe mentioned in the homily or announcements.

I pray for Bishop Trautperson.

My first inclination would be to not respond to someone who wrecklessly slurs a Bishop who they don’t know. However, I’m sure that he appreciates your prayers.

This being said, since neither of us are Bishop’s with sanctioned teaching authority in any diocese, we are free to disagree until a legitimate decision is made by this Committee, approved by the Conference and recieve approval from the Vatican. However, our discussion should be grounded in charity and not insulting, especially to our Bishops.

Personally, I think in light of all of our other catechesis problems, this is not an issue that I’d devote to the bulletin. Also, imagery in the prayers of the Church are not sacrosanct.

 

[Sr_Sally]

Agreed… if one was a 9 year old child. Thinking, educated adults (one would think) would have a much different attitude.

Unfortunately, the world is not populated solely with thinking, educated adults. Especially in the US, our adult population is often not highly educated people who think in metaphors. And really, even with the beautiful imagery, the sentence lacks a certain grace of grammar. There are plenty of other images that the bishops could use for the work of the Holy Spirit which wouldn’t confuse people or lead them into fits of giggles.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

I wonder if his exellency ever uses the preface to Eucharistic Prayer II which begins: *"Father, it is our

duty

and our salvation always and everywhere to give you thanks through your beloved Son, Jesus Christ…"*?

Surely that is more evocative than dew?

tee

ROFL!!!
:ROTFL:

Doodie…hehehe…

Peace,
Dante

 

[puzzleannie]

discussion seems to have exhausted this topic
zip-a-dee-DOO-dah, zip-a-dee-aay

 

[Pug]

People are used to hearing the word “duty” in speech and readily recognize it. I never hear the word “dew” in speech, except from my friend who drinks Mountain Dew. So I think the recognition patterns are different for the two words. I’d be inclined to envision water or something you drink upon hearing the word (once I managed to forget the unfortunate meaning introduced to me by this thread ).

Be that as it may, if “dew” were to be enshrined into the mass and heard every Sunday, it would change the recognition patterns of people, clearly.

 

[tee_eff_em]

People are used to hearing the word “duty” in speech and readily recognize it. I never hear the word “dew” in speech, except from my friend who drinks Mountain Dew. So I think the recognition patterns are different for the two words. I’d be inclined to envision water or something you drink upon hearing the word (once I managed to forget the unfortunate meaning introduced to me by this thread ).

Be that as it may, if “dew” were to be enshrined into the mass and heard every Sunday, it would change the recognition patterns of people, clearly.

I

do

not agree that people seldom hear the word “dew”*, even if the sound may denote a verb rather than a noun. His exellency’s excremental** association is certainly not foremost in my mind when I

do

hear the word “dew”, but that may be

due

to my individual education, maturity, or other varying circumstance.

(* Regional pronunciation differences

due

ly noted)

(** In fact, I can’t recall the last time I had any excremental thought in church, but it was probably

due

to a reading from 1 Samuel 5 or 6)

:twocents:
tee

 

[Elzee]

You know, I never would have thought that, but now, since Bishop Trautman has pointed that out, when I hear it…I’m gonna think it…thanks your excellency :doh2:

That’s one way for the Bishop to get his way… hmmmm

 

[Sheeniac]

My first inclination would be to not respond to someone who wrecklessly slurs a Bishop who they don’t know. However, I’m sure that he appreciates your prayers.

And you know that I don’t know him? Well, it happens you’re right but you had no way of knowing that. But I do know that there are some of the unhappy but obedient members of his flock who DO refer to him in this way.

And, rather than a reckless slur, it actually was described as more a play on words given the issues of inclusive language, ridiculous definitions, etc. To mangle a name to make a point is certainly not a reckless slur. Rather, it is a result of SHEER frustration at the obstinateness of Bishops who refuse to honor the Pope’s desires, none of which are extreme in the least.

In terms of the bulletin, I am happy for you if your bulletin is chockful of useful and educational information. Ours is not. I offer enough in terms of suggestions (gently, and with love and many ideas I have are used or given consideration) that I don’t want to push too much in terms of the content of our bulletin. I would disagree that educational information about changes in prayers wouldn’t be a great addition.

 

[Pug]

I

do

not agree that people seldom hear the word “dew”*, even if the sound may denote a verb rather than a noun.

To give you your due, I do hear the word “do” daily. I meant I myself don’t hear the word/noun “dew” except as a soft drink, and that not often. I have no quarrel with whatever you hear often. I just meant me. When my grass is wet in the morning, I call it wet grass. I do read “dew” often enough in the bible. But that is just it, I read it. It is right there next to the manna and/or the quail. Now that I think on it, perhaps this is the association we are supposed to make?

When I first (and second and third) read the translation, I figured it meant water of the spirit, either that or some type of unknown reference to oil (the word “spirit” to me brings an association of anointing with oil, and also I associate water and the spirit, like pouring). I was puzzled by it. If that happened to me, I allow that others might puzzle at it, so I am tolerant of someone questioning the translation. But I think no one would be puzzled if it were heard daily at mass. So I see little issue.

The only religious association that readily comes to mind for dew is the hymn “Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory”, from my Protestant childhood.

 

[Angels_Watchin]

Let me give you another example. The Psalms and Isaiah were always confusing to me. But when I was given advice to combine a reading w/ a study guide that gave historical explanation of context, they came alive for me. Considering all of the Catechesis challenges we have to overcome in the Church, I am not sure that we should be adding new confusions.

*I am still torn after I write this. With regard to Scripture, I am a hawk on being true to original text and I strongly resist efforts to adopt the prayers of the Church to be politically correct or conform to current fads/vernacular. But, we do need to have appropriate sensitivity to ensuring that the prayers of the Church are properly understood by both the educated but also those less educated. It is a reality that in today’s world, the masses (esp. in America) are not as directly aware of nature in the same way that our forefathers were. The Church has a rich history of using imagery to spread the Word. Imagery that is effective because it is relevant. Some of the most powerful imagery was introduced during the Renaissance. But keep in mind, it was an “innovation” of what was used before. *

This is one of the reasons why God ensured that the Church adopted Latin as their official language long ago.

The language doesn’t change. If you don’t know what something means or you have a question, ASK!! - Just “reading the bible” without proper guidance leads you straight into protestantism, one of the major problems with the Catholic Church right now.

We must maintain and teach. That’s what the apostles did, that’s what our bishops, priests, deacons and religious education teachers are supposed to be doing.

We have lost the teachings of the Church in the past 2 generations - that’s all it takes to lose everything. Go to a good, holy OLD priest or solidly Catholic grandma - for the explanations we USED to get from the pulpit on Sunday and in CCD classes and from Grandma, sitting around the table reading scripture - and from the Old Tridentine missals - that haver SO MUCH MORE than the Mass.

THAT’s the “tradition kept by word or by letter”.

 

[KathleenElsie]

MY:twocents:

Please stop giving words new meanings.

To list a few:

special
gay
retard
dew
rainbow

Each of these words have legitimate meanings. Each have been made to denote something morally wrong or demeaning. We need to take back the language and refuse the control of the uneducated in our daily speech.

 

[Strider]

Unfortunately, the world is not populated solely with thinking, educated adults. Especially in the US, our adult population is often not highly educated people who think in metaphors. And really, even with the beautiful imagery, the sentence lacks a certain grace of grammar. There are plenty of other images that the bishops could use for the work of the Holy Spirit which wouldn’t confuse people or lead them into fits of giggles.

The documents of Vatican II state that the duty of a bishop is to teach, sanctify and govern. His excellency has a long history of dissent in the area of liturgy, including a gender inclusive edition that he tried to get the USCCB to put through some years ago. The vatican denied it.
adoremus.org/1103Trautman.html
He was the lone dissenter among the English speaking bishops on the ICEL during this most recent translatioon, which goes back to the original Latin.
If his excellency thinks “John and Mary” Catholic, (the trem he uses to refer to us in the pews) are too ignorant to understand the new translation, then it is part if his duty to teach John and Mary Catholic what the words mean.
religion.beloblog.com/archives/2007/06/memo_to_bishop_trautman_hes_th_1.html
This is a much better way to begin to regain some of the reverence that was lost from the liturgy with the current banal, “lowest common denominator,” translation we currently use.
For my part, I can’t wait for the gifts to be made holy by the “dew of the Holy Spirit.”
Bishop Trautman’s tenure ends with the November meeting of the USCCB. His replacement, Bishop Arthur Serrateli of Paterson New Jersey, has an entirely different and, to my mind, a much more refreshing view of liturgical reform.
patersondiocese.org/page.cfm?Web_ID=2328
Deo Gratias!

 

[rlg94086]

Hmm…I guess meteorologists shouldn’t report dew-points anymore. This is a real problem. What to *do, *what to *do, *what to do?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

personally I think the good bishop is thinking like the average 4-year-old. reminds me of the protests about new Authorized Version of bible translation in the last c. in England from Anglicans who wondered about the phrasing of the psalm invoking protection upon “all those who do their business upon the waters”.

You awoke the 9 year old in me.

 

[pprimeau1976]

RRGH

Just because a word like “dew” and “doo” sound the same, that means we should just eliminate it’s usage? If that’s the case, let’s just revise the NAB as well and get rid of the 42 instances where the word “booty” appears!

Proverbs 1:13
“All kinds of precious wealth shall we gain, we shall fill our houses with booty”

AARGH…the IMAGERY!!! .

Numbers 31:11
“Then they took all the booty…”

AARGH…more IMAGERY!!! :banghead:

 

[tee_eff_em]

RRGH

Just because a word like “dew” and “doo” sound the same, that means we should just eliminate it’s usage? If that’s the case, let’s just revise the NAB as well and get rid of the 42 instances where the word “booty” appears!

tee

 

[Wolseley]

(sigh)

America, the Land of Arrested Maturity…

 

[Contarini]

Of course, says the Anglican heretic, there is another possibility:

Let each part of the Church–at the very least, each linguistic unit (i.e., English-speaking Catholics, etc.) develop its own liturgy, and then you won’t have to wrestle with these thorny issues.

I know that this will be met with howls of outrage, but try giving a theological rather than a pragmatic response, if possible.

Edwin