Bishop: When religion is kept out of public life, trouble ensues

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rand_Al_Thor
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
R

Rand_Al_Thor

Guest
A great article from the Catholic Sentinal. Bishop Liam Cary of the Baker, OR diocese is interviewed here in regards to religious liberty.
Catholic leaders in Oregon fear individual rights have multiplied at the expense of the common good.
Bishop Liam Cary of the Diocese of Baker says the problem is one consequence of blocking religion from the common sphere. When people ignore the wisdom of ancient faith and instead fight for rights to contraception, abortion, gay marriage and even marijuana, they forget the damage to society and order overall, especially youth, Bishop Cary explains.
The rest here:
catholicsentinel.org/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=35&ArticleID=25657
 
In New York State it was the bishops who wanted prayer removed from public schools. This was a long long time before any Supreme Court decisions. They didn’t want Catholic children praying Protestant prayers. They were right. Religion belongs in the home and carried outside in your heart. If there is religion in the public sphere then some people are going to be complaining it’s not theirs. Catholics are benefiting from this too. Are you comfortable saying amen to a prayer of a Muslim, Jew, or even Protestant? It’s not just prayers. Some churches believe in the rights of gay people to marry. This is not the type of religious belief you would be happy seeing. It is a double edged sword. Religion in the public sphere means all religions, not just yours.
 
In New York State it was the bishops who wanted prayer removed from public schools. This was a long long time before any Supreme Court decisions. They didn’t want Catholic children praying Protestant prayers. They were right. Religion belongs in the home and carried outside in your heart. If there is religion in the public sphere then some people are going to be complaining it’s not theirs. Catholics are benefiting from this too. Are you comfortable saying amen to a prayer of a Muslim, Jew, or even Protestant? It’s not just prayers. Some churches believe in the rights of gay people to marry. This is not the type of religious belief you would be happy seeing. It is a double edged sword. Religion in the public sphere means all religions, not just yours.
Well said. Amen.
Mary.
 
Pretty much agree, you only need to look at the 20th century to see the examples of secularism: Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Communist China, North Korea, Khmer Rouge Cambodia, the list goes on…
 
Pretty much agree, you only need to look at the 20th century to see the examples of secularism: Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Communist China, North Korea, Khmer Rouge Cambodia, the list goes on…
On the other hand, Sharia law has worked out really well 🙂
 
In New York State it was the bishops who wanted prayer removed from public schools. This was a long long time before any Supreme Court decisions. They didn’t want Catholic children praying Protestant prayers. They were right. Religion belongs in the home and carried outside in your heart. If there is religion in the public sphere then some people are going to be complaining it’s not theirs. Catholics are benefiting from this too. Are you comfortable saying amen to a prayer of a Muslim, Jew, or even Protestant? It’s not just prayers. Some churches believe in the rights of gay people to marry. This is not the type of religious belief you would be happy seeing. It is a double edged sword. Religion in the public sphere means all religions, not just yours.
Christ absolutely did not teach us to keep religion in our homes and only carried outside in our hearts. Nor has the Church at any point in history taught or believed that. People can and will complain all they want, but had Christ meant for us to keep our faith to ourselves, he would have taught us that. Instead, he told us to “make disciples of all nations”…pretty hard to do that if you never bring your faith outside your church or house. Plus, on a purely secular note, there’s that pesky First Amendment that guarantees our right to exercise our religion and yes, that does mean in public if we want.
 
I think it’s true that people are not following religions’ pronouncements on many issues. I can understand why the bishop would want to blame that on some sort of unqualified censorship rather than the more seemingly parsimonious explanations: that people just aren’t listening to religious leaders or are simply rejecting their messages on those issues.
 
I hope you all don’t mind if I share with you a very good excerpt from Timothy Keller’s book on this very issue.

Keep religion completely private.

Another approach to the divisiveness of religion is to allow that people may privately believe their faith is the truth and may “evangelize” for their faith, but that religious beliefs should be kept out of the public sphere. Influential thinkers such as John Rawls and Robert Audi have argued that, in public political discussions, we may not argue for a moral position unless it has a secular, nonreligious grounding. Rawls is well known for insisting that what he calls “comprehensive” religious views be excluded from public discourse.

Recently a large array of scientists and philosophers signed “A Declaration in Defence of Science and Secularism,” which called on leaders of our government “not to permit legislation or executive action to be influenced by religious beliefs.” The signers included Peter Singer, E.O. Wilson, and Daniel C. Dennett. The philosopher Richard Rorty, for example, has argued that religious faith must remain a strictly private affair and must never be brought into discussions of public policy. To ever use an argument grounded in a religious belief is simply a “conversation stopper,” which the nonbeliever cannot engage.

To those who complain that this approach discriminates against religion, Rorty and others retort that this policy is simply pragmatic. They are not ideologically opposed to religion per se, nor are they seeking to control religious beliefs, so long as they are kept in the private sphere. However, in the public sphere it is divisive and time-consuming to argue constantly over religion. Religion-based positions are seen as sectarian and controversial, while secular reasoning for moral positions are seen as universal and available to all.

Therefore, public discourse should be secular, never religious. Without reference to any divine revelation or confessional tradition, we should work together on the great problems of our time-such as AIDS, poverty, education, and so on. We should keep our religious views to ourselves and unite around policies that “work” best for the most people.

However, Stephen L. Carter of Yale responds that it is impossible to leave religious views behind when we do any kind of moral reasoning at all.

Efforts to craft a public sphere from which religious conversation is absent, no matter how thoughtfully worked out, will always in the end say to those of organized religion that they alone, unlike everybody else, must enter public dialogue only after leaving behind that part of themselves that they may consider the most vital.

How can Carter make such a claim? Let’s begin by asking what religion is. Some say it is a form of belief in God. But that would not fit Zen Buddhism, which does not really believe in God at all. Some say it is belief in the supernatural. But that does not fit Hinduism, which does not believe in a supernatural realm beyond the material world, but only a spiritual reality within the empirical. What is religion then? It is a set of beliefs that explain what life is all about, who we are, and the most important things that human beings should spend their time doing. For example, some think that this material world is all there is, that we are here by accident and when we die we just rot, and therefore the important thing is to choose to do what makes you happy and not let others impose their beliefs on you. Notice that though this is not an explicit, “organized” religion, it contains a master narrative, an account about the meaning of life along with a recommendation for how to live based on that account of things.

Some call this a “worldview” while others call it a “narrative identity.” In either case it is a set of faith-assumptions about the nature of things. It is an implicit religion. Broadly understood, faith in some view of the world and human nature informs everyone’s life. Everyone lives and operates out of some narrative identity or worldview, whether it is thought out and reflected upon or not. All who say “You ought to do this.” or “You shouldn’t do that” reason out of such an implicit moral and religious position.

Pragmatists say that we should leave our deeper worldviews behind and find consensus about “what works” - but our view of what works is determined by what we think people are for. Any picture of happy human life that “works” is necessarily informed by deep-seated beliefs about the purpose of human life. Even the most secular pragmatists come to the table with deep commitments and narrative accounts/worldviews of what it means to be human.

Rorty insists that religion-based beliefs are conversation stoppers. But all of our most fundamental convictions about things are beliefs that are nearly impossible to justify to those who don’t share them. Secular concepts such as “self-realization” and “autonomy” are impossible to prove and are “conversation stoppers” just as much as appeals to the Bible.

Please continue to next post -
 
Statements that seem to be common sense to the speakers are nonetheless often profoundly religious in nature. Imagine that:

Ms. A argues that all safety nets for the poor should be removed, in the name of “survival of the fittest.”

Ms. B might respond, “The poor have the right to a decent standard of living-they are human beings like the rest of us!”

Ms. A could then come back with the fact that many bioethicists today think the concept of “human” is artificial and impossible to define. She might continue that there is no possibility of treating all living organisms’ as ends rather than means and that some always have to die that others may live. That is simply the way nature works.

If Ms. B counters with a pragmatic argument, that we should help the poor simply because it makes society work better,

Ms. A could come up with many similar pragmatic arguments about why letting the poor just die would be even more efficient.

Now Ms. B would be getting angry. She would respond heatedly that starving the poor is simply unethical,

but Ms. A could retort, “Who says ethics must be the same for everyone?”

Ms. B would finally exclaim: “I wouldn’t want to live in a society like the one you are describing!”

In this interchange Ms. B has tried to follow John Rawls and find universally accessible, “Neutral and objective” arguments that would convince everyone that we must not starve the poor. She has failed because there are none. In the end Ms. B affirms the equality and dignity of human individuals simply because she believes it is true and right. She takes as an article of faith that people are more valuable than rocks or trees-though she can’t prove such a belief scientifically. Her public policy proposals are ultimately based on a religious stance.

This leads a legal theorist, Michael J. Perry, to conclude that it is “quixotic, in any event, to attempt to construct an airtight barrier between religiously grounded moral discourse … and [secular] discourse in public political argument.” Rorty and others argue that religious argument is too controversial, but Perry retorts in Under God? Religious Faith and Liberal Democracy that secular grounds for moral positions are no less controversial than religious grounds, and a very strong case can be made that all moral positions are at least implicitly religious. Ironically, insisting that religious reasoning be excluded from the public sphere is itself a controversial “sectarian” point of view.

When you come out into the public square it is impossible to leave your convictions about ultimate values behind. Let’s take marriage and divorce laws as a case study (you could also use same sex marriage). Is it possible to craft laws that we all agree “work” apart from particular worldview commitments? I don’t believe so. Your views of what is right will be based on what you think the purpose of marriage is. If you think marriage is mainly for the rearing of children to benefit the whole society, then you will make divorce very difficult. If you think the purpose of marriage is more primarily for the happiness and emotional fulfilment of the adults who enter it, you will make divorce much easier. The former view is grounded in a view of human flourishing and well-being in which the family is more important than the individual, as is seen in the moral traditions of Confucianism, Judaism and Christianity.

The latter approach is a more individualistic view of human nature based on Enlightenment’s understanding of things. The divorce laws you think “work” will depend on prior beliefs about what it means to be happy and fully human. There is no objective, universal consensus about what that is. Although many continue to call for the exclusion of religious views from the public square, increasing numbers of thinkers, both religious and secular, are admitting that such a call is itself religious.

The following above is an except out of the book ‘The Reason for God’ by Timothy Keller.

Thank you for reading 🙂
Josh
 
I think it’s true that people are not following religions’ pronouncements on many issues. I can understand why the bishop would want to blame that on some sort of unqualified censorship rather than the more seemingly parsimonious explanations: that people just aren’t listening to religious leaders or are simply rejecting their messages on those issues.
That wasn’t the point he was making. He was not talking about the people who are not following their religion’s teachings; he was talking about the people who are TRYING to follow the teachings and are being told by the government they cannot.
 
Religion in the public sphere means all religions, not just yours.
I’m amazed at how many catholics are prepared to accept the assertion that Wiccans or peyote smokers/worshippers or whatever nonsense is out there must be acknowledged in public as of equal value to our faith.

There simply is no reason to meekly submit to atheistic assertions that the moral implications of Catholicism are as arbitrary as ‘reverend’ Moon’s. We have a granite solid philosophical, historical and sociological basis for our moral theology. Time to start KNOWING that patrimony and defending it.

Let’s be clear, we aren’t talking about forcing people to pray our prayers here. We are talking about whether religious people should just shut up about basic civilizational issues like euthanasia, embryonic experimentation and the common societal definition of marriage (among many others). There is no reason that atheists and de-facto atheists should be the only ones allowed to articulate their values and argue for adoption of their opinions in public policy. Our values are the ones that built this culture and created the most advanced civilization in human history (flaws and all). It’s hardly a coincidence that it all happened in the context of underlying Christian values.

If we accept the notion that anyone with a religiously based conviction must shut up about it in public discourse and policy debate, then we might as well just hand the country over to the atheist secularists and move out. Flawed as America is and always has been, I’m pretty sure she’s worth fighting for first.
 
I’m amazed at how many catholics are prepared to accept the assertion that Wiccans or peyote smokers/worshippers or whatever nonsense is out there must be acknowledged in public as of equal value to our faith.

There simply is no reason to meekly submit to atheistic assertions that the moral implications of Catholicism are as arbitrary as ‘reverend’ Moon’s. We have a granite solid philosophical, historical and sociological basis for our moral theology. Time to start KNOWING that patrimony and defending it.

Let’s be clear, we aren’t talking about forcing people to pray our prayers here. We are talking about whether religious people should just shut up about basic civilizational issues like euthanasia, embryonic experimentation and the common societal definition of marriage (among many others). There is no reason that atheists and de-facto atheists should be the only ones allowed to articulate their values and argue for adoption of their opinions in public policy. Our values are the ones that built this culture and created the most advanced civilization in human history (flaws and all). It’s hardly a coincidence that it all happened in the context of underlying Christian values.

If we accept the notion that anyone with a religiously based conviction must shut up about it in public discourse and policy debate, then we might as well just hand the country over to the atheist secularists and move out. Flawed as America is and always has been, I’m pretty sure she’s worth fighting for first.
Amen.

I really must shake my head when I hear of people trying to perform a public ‘satanic mass’ in the name of ‘religious freedom’ … it’s just madness I believe.

I believe people should be saying the obvious, “If you don’t believe, than why do it? and if you do believe, you should know better.” not saying “we better allow it or else it’s double standards regarding religious freedom.”

It’s just as Peter Kreeft has said I believe -

“No culture in history has ever embraced moral relativism and survived. Our own culture, therefore, will either (1) be the first, and disprove history’s clearest lesson, or (2) persist in its relativism and die, or (3) repent of its relativism and live. There is no other option.” - Peter Kreeft

The stone that the builders tossed aside has now become the cornerstone. - Psalm 118:22

Jesus is that cornerstone, and I believe society is trying to toss Him aside, I believe they fail to see that He is the cornerstone to our society. So lets be sure to defend Him in the public square because when Christ is kept out of public life, I believe trouble ensues.

*"An utterly fascinating illustration of this duping of ourselves is the latest arts building opened at Ohio State University, the Wexner Center for the Performing Arts, another one of our chimerical exploits in the name of intellectual advance. Newsweek branded this building “America’s first deconstructionist building.” It’s white scaffolding, red brick turrets, and Colorado grass pods evoke a double take. But puzzlement only intensifies when you enter the building, for inside you encounter stairways that go nowhere, pillars that hang from the ceiling without purpose, and angled surfaces configured to create a sense of vertigo. The architect, we are duly informed, designed this building to reflect life itself-senseless and incoherent-and the “capriciousness of the rules that organize the built world.” When the rationale was explained to me, I had just one question: Did he do the same with the foundation?

The laughter in response to my question unmasked the double standard our deconstructionists espouse. And that is precisely the double standard of atheism! It is possible to dress up and romanticize our bizarre experiments in social restructuring while disavowing truth or absolutes. But one dares not play such deadly games with the foundations of good thinking."* - Ravi Zacharias

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
A great article from the Catholic Sentinal. Bishop Liam Cary of the Baker, OR diocese is interviewed here in regards to religious liberty.

The rest here:
catholicsentinel.org/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=35&ArticleID=25657
One thing I’ve never understood about the Catholic Church’s stance on religious liberty issues is that the Church seems very quick to criticize “society,” “government,” “Democrats” and perhaps a few occasional Catholic politicians here and there, but basically, the average Catholic goes on practicing contraception, has abortions, or conversely, employs IVF, is having vasectomies and tubal ligations, gets divorced and remarries, practices co-habitation, supports gay marriage, etc., etc. Correct me if I’m wrong, but this also doesn’t seem to just be a few wayward outliers or bad apples–most Catholics seem to be on board with the way society is moving. Locally, even the Bishop here admitted that Catholic Charities already is in compliance with the requirements of the ACA and provides contraception coverage for its employees because of California law–and has been doing so for decades. I could go on but I hope you can see the point I’m trying to make.

How can bishops Catholic bishops criticize society or government with a straight face and demand “religious liberty” when the Catholic Church doesn’t even make half an effort to follow its own rules? Wouldn’t the bishops’ complaints be a little more credible if adherents of their own religion (or at least a majority of the people, or even just the leaders for that matter) actually followed the religion? Seems to me that if the bishops have an actual concern about religious liberty and aren’t just trying to posture themselves politically, “removing the beam from your own eye first” would be the first order of business. No? What am I missing here?

This all just seems like the grossest of hypocrisy to an outsider.
 
This all just seems like the grossest of hypocrisy to an outsider.
That’s just because it IS hypocrisy. The catholic church is only now close to emerging from several decades of turmoil and internal rebellion in which large numbers of priests and even bishops clearly didn’t actually believe in the totality of Catholicism. They were actively at work trying to remake it into what THEY believed it should be and they caused enormous confusion and apathy among the laity in the process.

The key to remember with Catholicism is that the actual teachings are divinely protected, but what you hear and see locally from catholics and even catholic leaders demonstrably is not. If you’re expecting to find a human community AYWHERE that lives up perfectly to God’s moral order… good luck. It don’t exist on this side of eternity.
 
That’s just because it IS hypocrisy. The catholic church is only now close to emerging from several decades of turmoil and internal rebellion in which large numbers of priests and even bishops clearly didn’t actually believe in the totality of Catholicism. They were actively at work trying to remake it into what THEY believed it should be and they caused enormous confusion and apathy among the laity in the process.

The key to remember with Catholicism is that the actual teachings are divinely protected, but what you hear and see locally from catholics and even catholic leaders demonstrably is not. If you’re expecting to find a human community AYWHERE that lives up perfectly to God’s moral order… good luck. It don’t exist on this side of eternity.
I guess in the points I was bringing up, and especially in the case of contraception which seems to bring on all this religious liberty talk, it seems like only a very small minority of Catholics even agree with the teaching, much less practice it. Sure, no group is perfect, but here it doesn’t even seem like the vast majority of the people are even making half an effort.

I guess maybe you could tell me about what efforts the U.S. bishops have undertaken to “clean up Dodge” on the contraception issue (so to speak) within the Catholic Church before criticizing the broader society for basically the exact same behavior. Otherwise, how do the bishops expect to have any moral credibility at all?
 
I guess in the points I was bringing up, and especially in the case of contraception which seems to bring on all this religious liberty talk, it seems like only a very small minority of Catholics even agree with the teaching, much less practice it. Sure, no group is perfect, but here it doesn’t even seem like the vast majority of the people are even making half an effort.

I guess maybe you could tell me about what efforts the U.S. bishops have undertaken to “clean up Dodge” on the contraception issue (so to speak) within the Catholic Church before criticizing the broader society for basically the exact same behavior. Otherwise, how do the bishops expect to have any moral credibility at all?
Again, that’s a fair criticism of both catholics en masse and the bishops. The road to re-evangelization is indeed a slow path and not always easy to discern. I’ve at times wished they’d just throw all the lukewarm bums out and start over with a small, lean church faithful to Christ and His teachings. But the argument against that goes something like “Really? You’ve got about a billion people who claim allegiance to your faith and at least several times in their lives have an opportunity to preach the gospel to them, but you’re going to tell the majority of them to GET LOST so that you can feel all nice and self-congratulatory in the faithful small remaining parishes?” Ouch. Good argument.

Since the 1980’s the church has prepared the first comprehensive catechism in centuries and proceeded to use it as a yardstick for all catechesis materials. This has gone a long way in halting the faithless dissent that once masqueraded as catholic education in our OWN parishes and schools. JPII spent much of his papacy developing his Theology of the Body, which seeks to re-introduce the totality of catholic teaching on human sexuality from which springs the widely misunderstood contraception issue. Admittedly, JPII (in my opinion) didn’t truly appreciate for a long time the magnitude of the compromised faith held by some in the American episcopacy and trusted too much in THEIR recommendations in who should be ordained as new bishops. That too has been largely turned around under B16. Large numbers of grass-roots apostolates and apologetics resources have sprung up in the last 30 years as the laity finally figured out what was truth versus fiction about Vatican II and these have been outstanding.

Are we done? Nope. Are we ready to kick out all the sinners? Never. Have serious and concerted efforts been under way to re-evangelize the nominal members of the faith? Yup (see above). Does the lousy job done in many quarters for some decades excuse government efforts to make everybody share the cost of an elective product / procedure that some people object to? No way. Freedom is still freedom if you have to pay for the things you want. That that needs explaining in this ONE context still boggles me.
 
Christ absolutely did not teach us to keep religion in our homes and only carried outside in our hearts. Nor has the Church at any point in history taught or believed that. People can and will complain all they want, but had Christ meant for us to keep our faith to ourselves, he would have taught us that. Instead, he told us to “make disciples of all nations”…pretty hard to do that if you never bring your faith outside your church or house. Plus, on a purely secular note, there’s that pesky First Amendment that guarantees our right to exercise our religion and yes, that does mean in public if we want.
The sharia law references and what not are red herrings.

Christ calls us to fight for Christ. Always, and everywhere. Not fight for secularism. Not fight for Islam.

Fight for cause that supports Him, and promoting His teachings. This goes beyond laws in any one country. There is no way in hades I am going to stand before Him and admit to being a coward because I was worried about having to potentially say a Muslim prayer in school. I’d deserve to be spit out if I did.

P.S.: Mat Cauthon > Rand AlThor
 
That wasn’t the point he was making. He was not talking about the people who are not following their religion’s teachings; he was talking about the people who are TRYING to follow the teachings and are being told by the government they cannot.
What teachings of the Catholic church is the government preventing you from following?
 
What teachings of the Catholic church is the government preventing you from following?
This is not me personally, since I’m not a business owner. But for a Catholic who believes that birth control pills (and it’s not just Plan B that can cause a fertilized egg not to implant), sterilizations, or abortions are immoral, the government is forcing them to provide those for other people.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top