[Bishop Williamson] threatened with expulsion [by SSPX]

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, what is to prevent us from saying that the Muslim [extremists] aren’t right?", Dawkins replied, “What’s to prevent us from saying Hitler wasn’t right? I mean, that is a genuinely difficult question, but whatever [defines morality], it’s not the Bible. If it was, we’d be stoning people for breaking the Sabbath.”[19]

The interviewer wrote in response, “I was stupefied. He had readily conceded that his own philosophical position did not offer a rational basis for moral judgments. His intellectual honesty was refreshing, if somewhat disturbing on this point.”[19]

The Article is from Conservapedia:

conservapedia.com/Richard_Dawkins#Dawkins.27_comment_concerning_Adolf_Hitler

conservapedia.com/Essay:_Richard_Dawkins%27_comment_concerning_Adolf_Hitler
 
So a Bishop ordained in disobedience is disobedient to his order? Color me shocked. :rolleyes:

Peace and God bless!
 
I’ve twisted his words? Excuse me but merely said I heard he said something and supplied the quote frome where I first seen it. thats like saying the Ground 0 mosque was not well thought out. Obviously revealing that you sympathize with some (but not all) Nazi ideas is not well thought out. These are his words not mine “What’s to prevent us from saying Hitler wasn’t right? I mean, that is a genuinely difficult question” his words; so what did I twist? Please in future if you think somebody has a bad source just say so but for the sake of charitability don’t accuse them of “twisting” anything.

God bless
 
So a Bishop ordained in disobedience is disobedient to his order? Color me shocked. :rolleyes:

Peace and God bless!
Please explain. Was he told not to hire this attorney before he did ? Has he yet refused to fire him ?

Or is that just a knee jerk sort of comment ?
 
I’ve twisted his words? Excuse me but merely said I heard he said something and supplied the quote frome where I first seen it. thats like saying the Ground 0 mosque was not well thought out. Obviously revealing that you sympathize with some (but not all) Nazi ideas is not well thought out. These are his words not mine “What’s to prevent us from saying Hitler wasn’t right? I mean, that is a genuinely difficult question” his words; so what did I twist? Please in future if you think somebody has a bad source just say so but for the sake of charitability don’t accuse them of “twisting” anything.

God bless
You are too trusting CC 😉
 
Many mass killings have happened in the world but the holocaust is the only one that it is a crime to deny.
 
I’ve deleted 10 posts that do not speak to the OP. I will be issuing infractions, as promised, to those who derail a thread or show disrespect for the clergy, including Bishop Williamson. We do not have to agree; but we must respect.

Thomas Casey
Moderator
 
Wow, his views on history got him kicked out of the SSPX. Beautiful, I love the SSPX:heart: but that was just wrong :mad:. I know and understand why Traditionalists need to distance ourselves from the far-right but its Roman Catholicism not Historicism. Maby JFK conspiracy theorists should be denied communion next…
There are a couple of fine points that posters are missing.

Bishop Fellay is the Superior General of the Society. He must be obeyed, whether he’s right or wrong. That comes with the job description. Unless a superior orders something that is either sinful or against Church law, he must be obeyed.

Disobedience of a direct order from a major superior is sufficient cause for dismissal in any institute.

The Society of St. Pius X is not a religious community. It is a secular institute that currently has no canonical status in the Church. Therefore, the members do not have canonical rights. They are subject to the authority of the Superior General to whom they promise obedience. There is no appeal, because they lack canonical standing in the Church. They cannot take the case to the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life. Even though they are a Society of Apostolic Life, they have no canonical standing. The Sacred Congregation has no jurisdiction to hear the appeal. This leaves Bishop Fellay free to dismiss without being challenged.

Even if the Society had canonical standing, it still remains a secular institute. It would have the canonical right to dismiss members. The Superior General cannot dismiss anyone from the clerical state. He can only dismiss from the Society. In that case, the priest or bishop is automatically suspended until he finds a bishop who will incardinate him into his diocese. However, a suspended deacon, priest or bishp cannot be incardinated until he is cleared by the Holy See. If Bishop Williamson were to be dismissed and if he were not already suspended, he would be suspended upon dismissal. He must find a bishop to take him under his wings and that bishop would have to apply to Rome to reinstate him.

Only religious in solemn vows and perpetuallly professed members of Pontifical Secular Orders may not be dismissed by the Major Superior without Rome’s consent to dismiss. They may be suspended, but not dismissed without the Vatican’s permission. But this does not apply to the Society. They are not in solemn vows, nor are they a Secular Order.

The Holy Father had ordered Bishop Williamson to put distance between him and his position on this issue. Defending himself in court may appear to be a defense of his position. I say may appear to be, because for all I know he may just be defending that he is being wrongly accused, which is a whole other defense. But if he’s arguing that his position had validity and that the German Government has no right to penalize him, then he’s still hanging on to his position. This is a postion that clergy and religious may not hold on to, by papal orders to all of us.

Because Bishop Williamson is a secular priest, he has one defense, if the Society allows it. Normally, the promise of obedience made by secular clergy only includes pastoral duties, not personal positions, even if they are positions that are contrary to faith and morals. Bishops can only demand that their clergy desist from making such statements if they do harm to the work of the diocese or in this case, to the work of the Society. If he can prove that his position does not do harm to the work of the Society and that hiring this lawyer is not harmful to the Society, he may have a case. But there is still the problem of who’s going to hear his case. The Roman tribunal cannot hear his case, because it has no jurisdiction over a group that has no canonical status. So we’re back at square one. He’s at the mercy of Bishop Fellay. Moral law is on Bishop Fellay’s side, even if Canon Law cannot be invoked on this matter.

If I were in such a tight spot, I would just drop the lawyer and pay the fine.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Ok, His Grace, Bishop Williamson may have some very misguided views on history but he is still a bishop. Though the SSPX has good reason to distance itself from Neo-Nazism a mans political and historical beliefs are not a good enough reason to kick him out of a religious order or society unless they are heretical and completely against Church teaching. Nazism is against Church teaching but Bishop Williamson is no Nazi.
I have to wonder what would be suitable grounds for kicking someone out of the SSPX, if not this? Certainly a society of priests has a right to insist that its members behave well in public. His public behaviour insults relatives of people who died in the holocaust, and many other people of good will. His actions have brought great shame on the whole church. This has nothing to do with the orthodoxy or heterodoxy of his views.
 
Well, we are wasting time discussing it. This thread was posted 11/22, but by 11/21, Bishop Williamson had already dismissed the lawyer in question.
 
As a Catholic bishop, such concerns that he pursues have nothing to do with his vocation. He will at times speak correctly about matters of the Faith, yet he mixes it with nonsense which reflects badly upon the good.

Bishop Fellay is right to take this action, and +Williamson better learn fast that he is a danger to the Faith himself all too often.
 
There are a couple of fine points that posters are missing.

Bishop Fellay is the Superior General of the Society. He must be obeyed, whether he’s right or wrong. That comes with the job description. Unless a superior orders something that is either sinful or against Church law, he must be obeyed.

Disobedience of a direct order from a major superior is sufficient cause for dismissal in any institute.

The Society of St. Pius X is not a religious community. It is a secular institute that currently has no canonical status in the Church. Therefore, the members do not have canonical rights. They are subject to the authority of the Superior General to whom they promise obedience. There is no appeal, because they lack canonical standing in the Church. They cannot take the case to the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life. Even though they are a Society of Apostolic Life, they have no canonical standing. The Sacred Congregation has no jurisdiction to hear the appeal. This leaves Bishop Fellay free to dismiss without being challenged.

Even if the Society had canonical standing, it still remains a secular institute. It would have the canonical right to dismiss members. The Superior General cannot dismiss anyone from the clerical state. He can only dismiss from the Society. In that case, the priest or bishop is automatically suspended until he finds a bishop who will incardinate him into his diocese. However, a suspended deacon, priest or bishp cannot be incardinated until he is cleared by the Holy See. If Bishop Williamson were to be dismissed and if he were not already suspended, he would be suspended upon dismissal. He must find a bishop to take him under his wings and that bishop would have to apply to Rome to reinstate him.

Only religious in solemn vows and perpetuallly professed members of Pontifical Secular Orders may not be dismissed by the Major Superior without Rome’s consent to dismiss. They may be suspended, but not dismissed without the Vatican’s permission. But this does not apply to the Society. They are not in solemn vows, nor are they a Secular Order.

The Holy Father had ordered Bishop Williamson to put distance between him and his position on this issue. Defending himself in court may appear to be a defense of his position. I say may appear to be, because for all I know he may just be defending that he is being wrongly accused, which is a whole other defense. But if he’s arguing that his position had validity and that the German Government has no right to penalize him, then he’s still hanging on to his position. This is a postion that clergy and religious may not hold on to, by papal orders to all of us.

Because Bishop Williamson is a secular priest, he has one defense, if the Society allows it. Normally, the promise of obedience made by secular clergy only includes pastoral duties, not personal positions, even if they are positions that are contrary to faith and morals. Bishops can only demand that their clergy desist from making such statements if they do harm to the work of the diocese or in this case, to the work of the Society. If he can prove that his position does not do harm to the work of the Society and that hiring this lawyer is not harmful to the Society, he may have a case. But there is still the problem of who’s going to hear his case. The Roman tribunal cannot hear his case, because it has no jurisdiction over a group that has no canonical status. So we’re back at square one. He’s at the mercy of Bishop Fellay. Moral law is on Bishop Fellay’s side, even if Canon Law cannot be invoked on this matter.

If I were in such a tight spot, I would just drop the lawyer and pay the fine.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Just one point. The statement that the SSPX has no canonical status has not been issued in an authoritative way. it was issued is Spain under the letterhead of the Cdl Secretary of State, but the statement itself was unsigned. The statement itself, therefore, is what lacks canonical status.
 
The SSPX, like any other organisation that gets regularly scourged by The Media, has no choice but to be extremely scrupulous about avoiding red herrings that will allow their enemies to play the old game of “Guilt by Association”. From the SSPX point of view, it is irrelevant whether Bp Williamson’s comments about the alleged gassing of millions of Jews were justified or not. They do not, as policy, allow anything but SSPX-sponsored pamphlets to be distributed on their Church premises, because they know that they will be blamed personally for anything that is written on a document issued on their territory. If Bp W. really does get himself expelled from the SSPX, it will have nothing to do with the truth or otherwise of his version of the Holocaust.

It is the eternal problem of “scandal”. When one does not control the situation, one must consider, not merely what the truth is, but what other people people – even people of ill-will – are going to do with it. Thus Pope S. Pius X would never ride in a carriage with his sisters because those who did not know them were liable to spread stories about his having girlfriends.

S. Cyril of Alexandria said, “Not all true things can be said to all men”. All the SSPX bishops are in a very vulnerable position. It is a classic sign that an antagonist is “listening to the Bad Spirit” when he employs dirty tricks like “guilt by association”. This has been used against Christians by despots in every century: they are accused, not of following Christ – which is the real issue – but of treason. In the modern world of the media, this red-herring tactic is blatantly transparent to those with eyes to see, but unfortunately it regularly deceives many, including those of good will but poor critical faculty – and these are probably the majority of the human race.

A bishop must be aware of these things and not give free sticks to his enemies for them to beat him with. For the record, I think that Bp Williamson’s comments (which were only a report of a book he had read decades before) at least present a prima facie case for further study. But it was still not his place to jeopardise his position, and compromise the SSPX as a whole, by entering this debate. The first time, he was clearly “ambushed” by the reporter, and he did not have the presence of mind to firmly refuse to be drawn. The German law and the €10,000 fine are absurd, but his clear duty is to minimise any further harm to the SSPX by the media, which to repeat, faithful Christians do not control.
 
Breaking News…

According to a communique posted on another forum, Bp Williamson has obeyed Bp Fellay and will not be using lawyer Nahrath

I do hope this is actually reliable…

The Mainstream media have still not published this, although the denial seems to be 2 days old. Naturally, as this news does not further their agenda.

I post it FYI.

See

angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=388426#388426
 
Just one point. The statement that the SSPX has no canonical status has not been issued in an authoritative way. it was issued is Spain under the letterhead of the Cdl Secretary of State, but the statement itself was unsigned. The statement itself, therefore, is what lacks canonical status.
While I empathize with the desire that people have to protect and regularize the relationship of the Society with the Church, please do not say things about the Society that are inaccurate. The Holy Father, in Motu Propio, has stated that the Society does not have canonical status in the Catholic Church. It is a lack of charity to others and to the Society to make statements about them that only jeopardize the regularization, because they later have to be clarified and this makes the Society and its members look less credible.

**ECCLESIAE UNITATEM

In the same spirit and with the same commitment to encouraging the resolution of all fractures and divisions in the Church and to healing a wound in the ecclesial fabric that was more and more painfully felt, I wished to remit the excommunication of the four Bishops illicitly ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre. With this decision I intended to remove an impediment that might have jeopardized the opening of a door to dialogue and thereby to invite the Bishops and the “Society of St Pius X” to rediscover the path to full communion with the Church. As I explained in my Letter to the Catholic Bishops of last 10 March, the remission of the excommunication was a measure taken in the context of ecclesiastical discipline to free the individuals from the burden of conscience constituted by the most serious of ecclesiastical penalties. However, the doctrinal questions obviously remain and until they are clarified the Society has no canonical status in the Church and its ministers cannot legitimately exercise any ministry.**

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
While I empathize with the desire that people have to protect and regularize the relationship of the Society with the Church, please do not say things about the Society that are inaccurate. The Holy Father, in Motu Propio, has stated that the Society does not have canonical status in the Catholic Church. It is a lack of charity to others and to the Society to make statements about them that only jeopardize the regularization, because they later have to be clarified and this makes the Society and its members look less credible.

**ECCLESIAE UNITATEM

In the same spirit and with the same commitment to encouraging the resolution of all fractures and divisions in the Church and to healing a wound in the ecclesial fabric that was more and more painfully felt, I wished to remit the excommunication of the four Bishops illicitly ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre. With this decision I intended to remove an impediment that might have jeopardized the opening of a door to dialogue and thereby to invite the Bishops and the “Society of St Pius X” to rediscover the path to full communion with the Church. As I explained in my Letter to the Catholic Bishops of last 10 March,** the remission of the excommunication was a measure taken in the context of ecclesiastical discipline to free the individuals from the burden of conscience constituted by the most serious of ecclesiastical penalties. However, the doctrinal questions obviously remain and until they are clarified the Society has no canonical status in the Church and its ministers cannot legitimately exercise any ministry.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Just to head off the possible next comment ECCLESIAE UNITATEM is signed;

I address to all a pressing invitation to pray the Lord tirelessly, through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, “ut unum sint”.

Given in Rome, at St Peter’s, on 2 July 2009, the fifth year of Our Pontificate.

BENEDICTUS PP. XVI
 
While I empathize with the desire that people have to protect and regularize the relationship of the Society with the Church, please do not say things about the Society that are inaccurate. The Holy Father, in Motu Propio, has stated that the Society does not have canonical status in the Catholic Church. It is a lack of charity to others and to the Society to make statements about them that only jeopardize the regularization, because they later have to be clarified and this makes the Society and its members look less credible.

**ECCLESIAE UNITATEM

In the same spirit and with the same commitment to encouraging the resolution of all fractures and divisions in the Church and to healing a wound in the ecclesial fabric that was more and more painfully felt, I wished to remit the excommunication of the four Bishops illicitly ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre. With this decision I intended to remove an impediment that might have jeopardized the opening of a door to dialogue and thereby to invite the Bishops and the “Society of St Pius X” to rediscover the path to full communion with the Church. As I explained in my Letter to the Catholic Bishops of last 10 March,** the remission of the excommunication was a measure taken in the context of ecclesiastical discipline to free the individuals from the burden of conscience constituted by the most serious of ecclesiastical penalties. However, the doctrinal questions obviously remain and until they are clarified the Society has no canonical status in the Church and its ministers cannot legitimately exercise any ministry.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
My apologies, JR! Last night I was thinking about the unsigned statement that followed the document you have quoted, that went further than the Holy Father had actually said.
(this is unfortunately a common thing that happens nowadays - see e.g. the “clarification” about condoms currently in the news). No, the SSPX has no “canonical status” beyond what it always had simce 1988: that of an emergency measure, justified by the appropriate provisions of Canon Law. But because it has only “emergency” status, then as Bro JR so thoroughly explained to us in his original posting, Bp Williamson would have no “regular” redress if disciplined by his superior.
 
My apologies, JR! Last night I was thinking about the unsigned statement that followed the document you have quoted, that went further than the Holy Father had actually said.
(this is unfortunately a common thing that happens nowadays - see e.g. the “clarification” about condoms currently in the news). No, the SSPX has no “canonical status” beyond what it always had simce 1988: that of an emergency measure, justified by the appropriate provisions of Canon Law. But because it has only “emergency” status, then as Bro JR so thoroughly explained to us in his original posting, Bp Williamson would have no “regular” redress if disciplined by his superior.
I completely understand and I’m honored and humbled by your apology. As I say, the Society and I do not agree on the flavor of chocolate, but that does not mean that I have any desire to do them harm or to wish them evil. I for one recognize that they have needs, they have something to contribute and they are also mistaken on certain points. They have some men whom I deeply respect and some who frighten me. Diagreement does not dispense one from charity or respect. Bishops Williamson and Fellay are validly ordained bishops. Why would I not show them respect. Along with that, they are my brothers. As a Franciscan brother, I am called to act in Locus Christ, as Christi, the first-born among many brothers… Christ is always a loving brother. I’m glad to hear that Bishop Williamson has dropped the lawyer. Were I in his situation, I would have done the same. It’s common sense.

My take on him is that he’s impulsive. That’s not a crime. Many human beings are impulsive. Maybe, if he had been my novice when I was novice master, he may have learned soemthing helpful. 😃
  • Think it, but don’t say it unless you’re asked.
  • Say only what men need to hear.
  • Your opinion is called “your opinion” because no one else is inerested; otherwise it would be our opinion.
  • Before you act, ask for permimssion. Once you get permission, confirm that you got it right, before you proceed.
  • Your superior does not have to be right, he just cannot ask you to sin.
  • Faith is easy, trusting is heroic virtue and charity is proof that you trust.
Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
It is indeed very good news that Bp. Williamson has dropped the new lawyer. This is what I, and no doubt others, were praying for. If he had continued with the new lawyer, and then expelled from the SSPX, he would likely have gone on a course of action that would be difficult to reverse.

I think, however, that his problems go beyond that of being simply impulsive. He has been caught up in conspiracy theories regarding supposed ‘Jewish domination theology’ (also called revisionism) for at least two decades. Once a person is emeshed in this viewpoint, it can be very difiicult to get out of it. Especially when there are others who have a vested interest in keeping him in this viewpoint. I was a revisionist myself for awhile, and therefore have sympathy for this problem. I don’t know what it would take, except a lot of prayer, to help him to see that the Jews are not trying to take over the Church and the world.

Please pray for him!
 
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