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Bishop Williamson: Vatican, SSPX hold 'absolutely irreconcilable' positions [CWN]
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J
JReducation
Guest
What as the line that the king made about Thomas Becket?
The only way to deal with people like this is with a sense of humor.Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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redrosetea
Guest
I have said this before…He might not be all there…I am not trying to be mean…but he acts so strangely…He is his own worst enemy, and he doesn’t seem to understand it
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JReducation
Guest
What out concerns me about Bishop Williamson is that if these talks do not turn out the way that he hopes, will he become a schismatic bishop?
His language is very interesting. Such expressions as “Rome converts” and “Rome joining the true Church” are very disturbing. This is the kind of language that was often heard from the Protestant Reformers and the first Eastern schismatics. It does little to promote reconciliation. At best, we can blow it off as poorly chosen words, rather than his actual feelings. Not all of us say the right thing all the time.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
His language is very interesting. Such expressions as “Rome converts” and “Rome joining the true Church” are very disturbing. This is the kind of language that was often heard from the Protestant Reformers and the first Eastern schismatics. It does little to promote reconciliation. At best, we can blow it off as poorly chosen words, rather than his actual feelings. Not all of us say the right thing all the time.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
R
redrosetea
Guest
Pride is a strange thing…He strikes me more as someone who thinks of themselves as the royal we…sort of imperious…he reminds me of things I have read about Napoleon…How tall do you think he is?What out concerns me about Bishop Williamson is that if these talks do not turn out the way that he hopes, will he become a schismatic bishop?
His language is very interesting. Such expressions as “Rome converts” and “Rome joining the true Church” are very disturbing. This is the kind of language that was often heard from the Protestant Reformers and the first Eastern schismatics. It does little to promote reconciliation. At best, we can blow it off as poorly chosen words, rather than his actual feelings. Not all of us say the right thing all the time.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
K
KC91
Guest
Maybe he might become an antipope like Michael and the recent Pius XIII.
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ibkc
Guest
Williamson is apparently quite happy to publicly undermine his superior. This doesn’t surprise me in the least, nor will it surprise me if Williamson refuses to go along with any proposed reconciliation. I’ll be sad, but not surprised.
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JaMc
Guest
You can’t satisfy everyone. Some already reconciled and became the FSSP, some will probably be satisfied with a clarification and narrow interpertation of Vatican II, then there’s others, like Bp. Williamson, who won’t be satisfied until Pope Benedict walks to Econe waving a white flag and declares Vatican II to be null and void in its entirety, effective immediately.
Unfortunately, if the SSPX are fully reconciled, it would not surprise me either to see Bp. Williamson leave and join a group like the SSPV, or some other “independent traditionalist” or sedevacantist group.
Unfortunately, if the SSPX are fully reconciled, it would not surprise me either to see Bp. Williamson leave and join a group like the SSPV, or some other “independent traditionalist” or sedevacantist group.
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pnewton
Guest
I said a while back that not all in the SSPX would be happy with reconciliation and that there would probably be a split if the talks are successful. I think the telling thing in the quote is the part about the SSPX becomes a traitor. This tells me that if things go well, he may set himself up as leader of a break away faction, like the SSPV. It also goes to show, that even though this was to be kept internal, this man can not be obedient, even in areas where no doctrine is at stake. Rebellion breeds rebellion. When on can throw off the mantle of obedience for any reason, it becomes easier to discard for every reason.
We can still pray for the success of these talks and this man will prove exceptional and his followers few.
We can still pray for the success of these talks and this man will prove exceptional and his followers few.
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Neil_Anthony
Guest
I second that… if the SSPX makes any compromise at all, Williamson could easily split from SSPX and declare himself pope.
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Neil_Anthony
Guest
There’s a third possibility here: they continue believing that 2+2=5, but allow you to believe and declare that 2+2=4, while remaining in communion.
I think the Vatican will allow the SSPX to accept a meaningless Vatican II interpretation that contradicts nothing from the Syllabus of Errors. In return the SSPX will have to speak diplomatically about subjects relating to ecumenism.
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JaMc
Guest
While that might get the SSPX reconciled, from a substantive point of view simply tucking Vatican II “out of sight, out of mind” accomplishes nothing.
I would hope that both the Vatican and the SSPX have more sense than that.
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pnewton
Guest
I think Neil is correct, although this particular SSPX leader will never concede. Vatican II does not need to be ignored in order to concede that there is a range of permissible thought within Catholic theology. An SSPX bishop could easily hold one’s opinions while at the same time not insisting that every Catholic agree with him. Even the Pope does not do that. Yet there are those that not only wish to be their own Pope, but to dominate the opinions of others to a greater extent than any man who has ever lived. If it were not so, compromise and obedience would not be an issue.
I think a good parallel is in the area of free will and predestination. This is an major topic, yet the Church has only set limits on what is too far afield as to be heresy and not defined everything exactly. One does not have to be a Thomist, even though St. Thomas was a Doctor of the Church. Likewise, one does not have to except Vatican II in the same way that everyone else does, even though it was a Church council. So much of it was pastoral as to make this possible.
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JReducation
Guest
There are many “ifs” posted above and we’ll just have to wait and see what the Congregation for the Faith says must be accepted from Vatican II as is and what can be nuanced.
My concern is for the lay people who Bishop Williamson influences. If Bishop Williamson wants to stand on his position and hold on to it, he’s a big boy. He can do that and he will have to live with the consequences, whatever those may be. Which I suspect that if he does not tow the line with the agreements reached in these talks, the consequences may be that he will remain suspended indefinitely and will never have a place in the Church, even though he will remain a Catholic bishop. To me that’s very sad… The idea of a bishop with no place in the hierarchy is almost an oxymoron. But I just have to think to myself, what Ordinary of what diocese will accept him as an auxiliary bishop? If he does not tow the line, will the SSPX grant him a place in the Society.
Either he has a place within the Society or he is assigned as an auxiliary bishop to some diocese or is suspended. We’re running out of choices here. The man seems to believe that it is the SSPX that is in posession of the truth and the Papacy and Roman Curia have to convert to the “true Church held up by the SSPX”. You cannot make statements like that without confusing the lay people who are listening to you. If sounds as if you are saying that the Roman Curia and the Holy See are not truly Catholic.
It’s either a very poor choice of words, which I hope is the case, or it reflects his attitude that there is only one authority at this table and that’s the SSPX, which is wrong. The SSPX does not have a place of authority in the Catholic Church. They are as much Catholics as the average persno in the pew, with the same authority as the person in the pew. He cannot make the claim that the Holy See has to convert to the truth held by the SSPX. The average person will misunderstand this statement and panic.
They will either see him as some lose canon and run away every time they hear the SSPX is coming or they will begin to doubt the fidelity of the Holy See. It seems to me that this was one reason why everyone was told not to speak about these talks until they were over, to avoid this kind of statement that can do harm to innocent people. Words like this have the potential to divide. What we want to do is to unite.
I’m reminded of something our novice master once said, many years ago. “If the superior tells you to be silent, unless the bulding is on fire, you may think it, but don’t say it.” There was great wisdom in those words. Unless it absolutely has to be said, it is best to hold your own counsel.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
My concern is for the lay people who Bishop Williamson influences. If Bishop Williamson wants to stand on his position and hold on to it, he’s a big boy. He can do that and he will have to live with the consequences, whatever those may be. Which I suspect that if he does not tow the line with the agreements reached in these talks, the consequences may be that he will remain suspended indefinitely and will never have a place in the Church, even though he will remain a Catholic bishop. To me that’s very sad… The idea of a bishop with no place in the hierarchy is almost an oxymoron. But I just have to think to myself, what Ordinary of what diocese will accept him as an auxiliary bishop? If he does not tow the line, will the SSPX grant him a place in the Society.
Either he has a place within the Society or he is assigned as an auxiliary bishop to some diocese or is suspended. We’re running out of choices here. The man seems to believe that it is the SSPX that is in posession of the truth and the Papacy and Roman Curia have to convert to the “true Church held up by the SSPX”. You cannot make statements like that without confusing the lay people who are listening to you. If sounds as if you are saying that the Roman Curia and the Holy See are not truly Catholic.
It’s either a very poor choice of words, which I hope is the case, or it reflects his attitude that there is only one authority at this table and that’s the SSPX, which is wrong. The SSPX does not have a place of authority in the Catholic Church. They are as much Catholics as the average persno in the pew, with the same authority as the person in the pew. He cannot make the claim that the Holy See has to convert to the truth held by the SSPX. The average person will misunderstand this statement and panic.
They will either see him as some lose canon and run away every time they hear the SSPX is coming or they will begin to doubt the fidelity of the Holy See. It seems to me that this was one reason why everyone was told not to speak about these talks until they were over, to avoid this kind of statement that can do harm to innocent people. Words like this have the potential to divide. What we want to do is to unite.
I’m reminded of something our novice master once said, many years ago. “If the superior tells you to be silent, unless the bulding is on fire, you may think it, but don’t say it.” There was great wisdom in those words. Unless it absolutely has to be said, it is best to hold your own counsel.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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nsper7
Guest
You would think +Fellay would want to expel +Williamson from the SSPX or something. I mean, it seems +Williamson can’t open his mouth without both feet jumping in.
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Tsuwano
Guest
I think its important for all Catholics not to underestimate the work of the Holy Spirit in these discussions. I think both sides have invoked the aid of the Holy Spirit and we all believe that our Church and faith are guided by the Holy Spirit. We shouldn’t count our chickens before they hatch, which is why Williamson’s view about “absolutely irreconcilable positions” confuses me. His view seems too secular and political to me, and appears to negate the presence of God in what is happening between the Vatican and the SSPX. I don’t know how these discussions will conclude, but I believe the grace of God is at work in the Church.
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JReducation
Guest
That’s tricky. I don’t think that he can be expelled from the Society. Even if he is expelled, that creates another problem. The pope has to take him. You cannot leave a bishop out in limbo. You can take away all of his authority, his canonical position, but you cannot take away his ordination. He remains a bishop and as long as he remains a Catholic, the Church is responsible for him.
I don’t know what the rules of the Society are regarding dismissal. The Society is not religious. It’s secular. In a religious order, if you’re dismissed, you are first laicized. Dismissal can only happen with the vote of the council and the approval of the pope. I don’t know how that works for a society of secular priests, which is what the SSPX is. They are not consecrated religious. The laws that govern them are different. It’s an interesting question.
I imagine that the General of the Society has the authority to suspend. That’s pretty standard for all generals. But when you’re suspended, you remain a member. I do agree that Bishop Williamson should take a vow of silence and just pray.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
J
JReducation
Guest
His comment confuses many people. It was just a bad choice of words. It increases the fear in those who already fear the SSPX and it increases the anxiety in those who believe that the Vatican is wrong and the SSPX is right. You’re right. It creates a partisan environment. I’m wondering if he thought his words could have that effect. I’m still giving him the benefit of the doubt and saying that he is not trying to do harm, but he is a man who speaks too quickly.
I’m reminded of one of my favorite bishops, Cardinal James Hickey (RIP). I loved him very much. The quality that I most admired about him was his quiet manner. He never responded to anything before thinking about it. His first response was always something like, “That’s interesting. I have to think about that.” And he did. He would eventually get back to you with an answer. You could get back an answer that you did not like. But it was one that was well thought out. I wish Bishop Williamson had done some kind of internship under Cardinal Hickey.
Cardinal O’Malley, Archbishop Dolan, Cardinal George and I forget the name of the bishop of Montgomery, but they are also very deliberate in their responses.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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rep140
Guest
I’ve read what SSPX’s views are and they are firm in their convictions. Whatever happens in discussion with Rome I hope that the conclusions are clear and not some ambiguity to welcome SSPX into the tent.
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redrosetea
Guest
I have actually read that SSPX are negotiating rather well quietly behind the scenes…it is just Williamson that is creating problems
I can post a link if it is still available and anyone would like to read it
I can post a link if it is still available and anyone would like to read it
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