Bishopes oppose celebacy rule

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"Three Roman Catholic bishops, reacting to damaging sexual abuse scandals in their ranks, have urged the church to consider easing its celibacy requirement for priests. Bishop Jozef de Kesel of Bruges, who replaced a bishop who quit in April after admitting to having abused his nephew, said last weekend, “Persons who find celibacy impossible should also have the opportunity to become priests.” Patrick Hoogmartens, bishop of Hasselt, and Bishop Johan Bonny of Antwerp seconded him on Monday. The chairman of the Interdiocesan Pastoral Council, a group of lay people working in the church, added its voice on Wednesday. “The time is now really ripe, certainly in Western Europe, for priests to be able to choose a celibate life or not,” its chairman, Josian Caproens, said in a statement. "

nytimes.com/2010/09/23/world/europe/23briefs-Belgium.html?_r=1&ref=religion_and_belief

Can the celebacy rule be changed? How could that happen?

Best,
Leela
 
"Three Roman Catholic bishops, reacting to damaging sexual abuse scandals in their ranks, have urged the church to consider easing its celibacy requirement for priests. Bishop Jozef de Kesel of Bruges, who replaced a bishop who quit in April after admitting to having abused his nephew, said last weekend, “Persons who find celibacy impossible should also have the opportunity to become priests.” Patrick Hoogmartens, bishop of Hasselt, and Bishop Johan Bonny of Antwerp seconded him on Monday. The chairman of the Interdiocesan Pastoral Council, a group of lay people working in the church, added its voice on Wednesday. “The time is now really ripe, certainly in Western Europe, for priests to be able to choose a celibate life or not,” its chairman, Josian Caproens, said in a statement. "

nytimes.com/2010/09/23/world/europe/23briefs-Belgium.html?_r=1&ref=religion_and_belief

Can the celebacy rule be changed? How could that happen?

Best,
Leela
If it does change. Then this would prove that some Catholic law is human convention. This would cause a problem. Since how much more of Catholic law is mere human convention? I would feel very betrayed by the catholic leaders if they changed it, because it would mean they have been lying to me.
 
Well yes; for Diocesian Priests the Celibacy rule could be Changed.

In fact; the Eastern Catholic Churches (in communion with Rome) allow married Priests.

From what I last heard about 20% of Catholic Priests are married; the majority being Anglican and Lutheran Priests who have converted after marraige; and Eastern Catholic Priests.

The Celibacy rule is not an unchangeable rule; many of the First Popes were married; including St Peter.

That Said — I do not think the rule should change; even though it is possible to change it. No one has a right to become a Priest; we are called to the Priesthood; and if we “find celibacy impossible” then we have significant self-control issues and should not be considering the Priesthood in the first place.
 
Well yes; for Diocesian Priests the Celibacy rule could be Changed.

In fact; the Eastern Catholic Churches (in communion with Rome) allow married Priests.

From what I last heard about 20% of Catholic Priests are married; the majority being Anglican and Lutheran Priests who have converted after marraige; and Eastern Catholic Priests.

The Celibacy rule is not an unchangeable rule; many of the First Popes were married; including St Peter.

That Said — I do not think the rule should change; even though it is possible to change it. No one has a right to become a Priest; we are called to the Priesthood; and if we “find celibacy impossible” then we have significant self-control issues and should not be considering the Priesthood in the first place.
Yes but you should emphasise the fact that these priests were married before they became celibate. Any marriage after the fact is illegitimate and the church has lead me to believe that it is binding, otherwise what would be the point of practising it or forcing of priests to be celebrate? I don’t think celibacy is very honest position if it is presented merely on the whim of human convention.
 
Yes but you should emphasise the fact that these priests were married before they became celibate. Any marriage after the fact is illegitimate and the church has lead me to believe that it is binding, otherwise what would be the point of practising it or forcing of priests to be celebrate? I don’t think celibacy is very honest position if it is presented merely on the whim of human convention.
Absolutely right – sorry if what I said was ambiguous.

These people were married before becomming Priests; in the same way as a Permenant Deacon must be married before ordination – and cannot marry after Ordination. (although Deacons can get dispensations to re-marry after ordination).
 
"Three Roman Catholic bishops, reacting to damaging sexual abuse scandals in their ranks, have urged the church to consider easing its celibacy requirement for priests. Bishop Jozef de Kesel of Bruges, who replaced a bishop who quit in April after admitting to having abused his nephew, said last weekend, “Persons who find celibacy impossible should also have the opportunity to become priests.” Patrick Hoogmartens, bishop of Hasselt, and Bishop Johan Bonny of Antwerp seconded him on Monday. The chairman of the Interdiocesan Pastoral Council, a group of lay people working in the church, added its voice on Wednesday. “The time is now really ripe, certainly in Western Europe, for priests to be able to choose a celibate life or not,” its chairman, Josian Caproens, said in a statement. "
nytimes.com/2010/09/23/world/europe/23briefs-Belgium.html?_r=1&ref=religion_and_belief
Can the celebacy rule be changed? How could that happen?
Best,
Leela
Hi Leela,
I think that with regard to the priests who were abusers the problem is not one of celibacy; it is a deep-seated psychiatric illness which prevents them from expressing any love for another human; so they abuse innocent children as some sort of affirmation of themselves.
I am not a psychiatrist but this is how, as a layman, I understand the illness.
The vast majority of priests are normal well-adjusted individuals.
God Bless,
Colmcille.
 
Hi Leela,
I think that with regard to the priests who were abusers the problem is not one of celibacy; it is a deep-seated psychiatric illness which prevents them from expressing any love for another human; so they abuse innocent children as some sort of affirmation of themselves.
I am not a psychiatrist but this is how, as a layman, I understand the illness.
The vast majority of priests are normal well-adjusted individuals.
God Bless,
Colmcille.
I tend to agree. Not only do I not buy natural law arguments against homosexuality, I don’t buy the same sorts of arguments used to say that celebacy is “unnatural.” It is certainly something that humans are capable of doing. The question is only whether or not it is good to do in the case of priests rather than whether it is natural.
 
If it does change. Then this would prove that some Catholic law is human convention. This would cause a problem. Since how much more of Catholic law is mere human convention? I would feel very betrayed by the catholic leaders if they changed it, because it would mean they have been lying to me.
So what is up with these Bishops? Do they just not understand Catholic law?
 
"Three Roman Catholic bishops, reacting to damaging sexual abuse scandals in their ranks, have urged the church to consider easing its celibacy requirement for priests. Bishop Jozef de Kesel of Bruges, who replaced a bishop who quit in April after admitting to having abused his nephew, said last weekend, “Persons who find celibacy impossible should also have the opportunity to become priests.” Patrick Hoogmartens, bishop of Hasselt, and Bishop Johan Bonny of Antwerp seconded him on Monday. The chairman of the Interdiocesan Pastoral Council, a group of lay people working in the church, added its voice on Wednesday. “The time is now really ripe, certainly in Western Europe, for priests to be able to choose a celibate life or not,” its chairman, Josian Caproens, said in a statement. "

nytimes.com/2010/09/23/world/europe/23briefs-Belgium.html?_r=1&ref=religion_and_belief

Can the celebacy rule be changed? How could that happen?

Best,
Leela
yes it can, not sure how
 
If it does change. Then this would prove that some Catholic law is human convention. This would cause a problem. Since how much more of Catholic law is mere human convention? I would feel very betrayed by the catholic leaders if they changed it, because it would mean they have been lying to me.
Some of Catholic law is man made, and this is already known! There is a difference between dogma and discipline. Celibate priests is a discipline…it is possible to be changed. Whether its a good idea or not is a debate. Male priests is dogma…it can never be changed, even if the church wanted to change it for some reason.

Those are just some examples. It is already well known which rules are God made, and which are church disciplines. You just gotta do some research to know the difference. 🙂
 
I presume that one of the reasons why priests must observe celibacy is the fact of investing huge time and energy into the day-to-day running of a parish. That is a hugely responsible undertaking. How could a married man devote all of his time to his flock as well as to a wife and kids? I’m sure it could be done but would one or the other (or both) not suffer in the process?
The priesthood is a deeply honourable vocation and should be commented upon in that light.
God Bless,
Colmcille.
 
Some of Catholic law is man made, and this is already known! There is a difference between dogma and discipline. Celibate priests is a discipline…it is possible to be changed. Whether its a good idea or not is a debate. Male priests is dogma…it can never be changed, even if the church wanted to change it for some reason.

Those are just some examples. It is already well known which rules are God made, and which are church disciplines. You just gotta do some research to know the difference. 🙂
Its not that I don’t see that it is my responsibility to research my faith, but why hasn’t the church made this fact obvious?
 
Its not that I don’t see that it is my responsibility to research my faith, but why hasn’t the church made this fact obvious?
Hm, I’m not sure. Perhaps they don’t want to encourage dissention or disagreement. I know there is a argument that to allow priests to marry now would kind of not be fair to all the men who are currently priests and never got married…as well as all of the thousands of priests of the past who were celibate. There is a certain continuity that they don’t think is good to disrupt.

On the other hand, maybe they are making it known? I didn’t actually research this myself, so I didn’t mean to say that you are bad for not researching it, or something like that. I actually heard it on relevant radio when a priest was discussing on the air. So really, I’m not sure!

I do know one thing though. Regardless if this is a changable rule or not, Pope Benedict did say it “will not” be changed.
 
Priestly Celibacy was an Apostolic Norm for the whole Church

While the fact of priestly celibacy is a discipline, it is also more than a discipline because it is an Apostolic norm from the choices made by Jesus, and Sacred Scripture attests to its roots.

Christ, by remaining celibate, wrote Pope Paul VI, signified his total dedication to the service of God and men (The Celibacy of the Priest, June 24, 1967). If Christ found celibacy to be central to His service of God and man, we should not be surprised if He finds the same to be central to the lives of His priests; to those who act in Persona Christi. The celibacy required for priests is from the time of the apostles, and obligatory, as confirmed by all scholarship, and by the Fathers and Popes.

Among the Apostles, only Saint Peter is known to have been married because his mother-in-law is mentioned in the Gospels, but no mention is made of his wife or children. Tradition tells us that he was a widower who was caring for his wife’s aged mother. Some of the others might have been married, but there is no indication of this and it is a clear that they left everything, including their families, to follow Christ.

Bishops who oppose this norm are misled.
 
Priestly Celibacy was an Apostolic Norm for the whole Church

While the fact of priestly celibacy is a discipline, it is also more than a discipline because it is an Apostolic norm from the choices made by Jesus, and Sacred Scripture attests to its roots.

Christ, by remaining celibate, wrote Pope Paul VI, signified his total dedication to the service of God and men (The Celibacy of the Priest, June 24, 1967). If Christ found celibacy to be central to His service of God and man, we should not be surprised if He finds the same to be central to the lives of His priests; to those who act in Persona Christi. The celibacy required for priests is from the time of the apostles, and obligatory, as confirmed by all scholarship, and by the Fathers and Popes.

Among the Apostles, only Saint Peter is known to have been married because his mother-in-law is mentioned in the Gospels, but no mention is made of his wife or children. Tradition tells us that he was a widower who was caring for his wife’s aged mother. Some of the others might have been married, but there is no indication of this and** it is a clear that they left everything, including their families, to follow Christ.**
Bishops who oppose this norm are misled.
Hi Abu,
A good post. The highlighted part is something which I had overlooked. Such was the depth of the Apostles love for Jesus and His teaching that they left their relatively comfortable lives behind them.
How much “easier” it is today for young single men to follow Him as priests; they cannot miss what they have never known.
God Bless,
Colmcille.
 
Hi Abu,
A good post. The highlighted part is something which I had overlooked. Such was the depth of the Apostles love for Jesus and His teaching that they left their relatively comfortable lives behind them.
How much “easier” it is today for young single men to follow Him as priests; they cannot miss what they have never known.
God Bless,
Colmcille.
My understanding is that the prohibition of marriage for priests came about historically as a concern for keeping the property accumulated by priests within the church rather than passed down to a priest’s children.
 
Hi Leela,
I think that with regard to the priests who were abusers the problem is not one of celibacy; it is a deep-seated psychiatric illness which prevents them from expressing any love for another human; so they abuse innocent children as some sort of affirmation of themselves.
I am not a psychiatrist but this is how, as a layman, I understand the illness.
The vast majority of priests are normal well-adjusted individuals.
God Bless,
Colmcille.
Colmcille:

Here, in the US, the problem appears to have stemmed from two Seminaries. Some 40 to 50 years ago, a couple of gay-leaning head seminarians were appointed to run them. Stands to reason that gay men would enter the priesthood in order to receive help, particularly directly from God, to overcome their homosexuality. But, simply entering the seminaries was not the cure. Also, as there is now, there was a lot of pressure on the Church to relax its rules on the admission of gays.

Even though it was very difficult for gays to enter the seminaries (and still is, thank God) with the help of at least two pro-gay head seminarians, some did. Many became celibate Priests. Some did not. Over the course of that 30-some years, many of the ardently gay Priests were sent out to Parish Churches. All Catholic Churches have sizable populations of Churched parishioners, which means that such Priests were put into close contact with lots of young boys.

It must be remembered that, according to the Law, only sexual relations with boys 12 years old or younger amounts to illegal pedophilia. From 13 and up, it is considered homosexual activity, and is not, per se, illegal, or, at least it wasn’t then, even if some laws have recently been changed, in some locales. Thus, gay Priests had been recruiting gay lovers.

This so-called scandal has cost the Church in America almost its survival. We must only pray that God gives us the continued Grace to survive the onslaught of Satan. Now, there are about 60,000 Priests in America, according to those statistics. About 1 1/2% to 2 % of Priests were causal, with regard to gay recruitment. If we go with the highest number, say 2 %, that’s a total of 1,200 homosexual Priests that have been causal in America. Causal meaning actively recruiting for illicit behavior.

I can’t speak for the rest of the world, but, these were the numbers I found when I researched much of this years ago. As of about a year ago, the numbers were still holding. I had numerous conversations with Leela, back then, and gave her many web links to the actual facts.

Another fact is that of the boys that these Priests engaged with were, in the main, above 13 years old. 95% were, in fact! That is the perfect age area that gays like to recruit from. Only 5% of the Priest’s acts were considered illegal pedophilia. I provided these statistics to Leela a year or so ago as well. Those that continue to trumpet that “homosexuality is not a problem,” are patently wrong.

Taking a look at the secular macro-society, we find that numbers a quite different. The range is from roughly 4.5% up to 10% that engage in illicit behaviors. Actually, the pedophilia rate, in macro society, is more than double the homosexual recruitment rate in the Church. Now I ask you, where would your children be safer? Hmmm? (Rhetorical)

Anyway, Colmcille, I agree that there are deep psychological problems with anyone practicing child abuse.

God bless,
jd
 
Colmcille:

Here, in the US, the problem appears to have stemmed from two Seminaries. Some 40 to 50 years ago, a couple of gay-leaning head seminarians were appointed to run them. Stands to reason that gay men would enter the priesthood in order to receive help, particularly directly from God, to overcome their homosexuality. But, simply entering the seminaries was not the cure. Also, as there is now, there was a lot of pressure on the Church to relax its rules on the admission of gays.

Even though it was very difficult for gays to enter the seminaries (and still is, thank God) …
Wait a second. If priests are celebate why would it make any sense to talk about gay versus heterosexual priests?

Aren’t priests supposed to be neither?
 
Wait a second. If priests are celebate why would it make any sense to talk about gay versus heterosexual priests?

Aren’t priests supposed to be neither?
Leela! you are correct. Not even the slightest of those atrocities should have occurred. Not a single one. I hold Priests to a higher standard. I don’t expect them to falter. I don’t expect them to err. I don’t expect them to harm a single soul. But, that’s just me. I will pray for them and pray for the hopes that it never happens again in this most Holy Church of Christ.

God bless,
jd
 
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