Bishops’ Conference Responds To 18 Democrats Critical Of Pope

[Steve_O_Brien]

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) has just worsened the terrible situation that exists because the Holy Father and the bishops are not excommunicating politicians who support the legalized murder of unborn children:

usccb.org/comm/archives/2007/07-088.shtml

Sadly, Sister Mary Ann Walsh, speaking in the name of the American hierarchy, is absolutely correct when she says the following:

"The Holy See has made clear that neither the Mexican bishops nor the Holy Father have excommunicated any legislator. "

Whatever Pope Benedict XVI meant by his somewhat confused extemporaneous remarks about excommunication on the airplane taking him to Brazil, he effectively retracted those remarks through his official media spokesman, Father Federico Lombardi. Nor have the Mexican bishops displayed greater firmness.

The bottom line is that neither the Vicar of Christ nor the bishops in Mexico, the United States, or any other country have any intention of excommunicating legislators who support the legality of what Pope John Paul II taught is murder in section 58 of the 1995 encyclical Evangelium vitae.

In concrete, practical terms, there are now two categories of Catholics who receive the body and blood of Christ in Holy Communion: those who rightly condemn legalized abortion, and those who support it, even by voting for it as legislators. Those who support the legalized murder of unborn children do not have to fear that the Pope or the bishops will excommunicate them for this reason.

***At least at this time. ***We must pray–especially by praying the Rosary to Our Lady of Fátima–that this situation, one of the worst scandals in the whole history of Catholicism, will soon be brought to an end by a courageous Pope and courageous bishops.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[tee_eff_em]

How would you like to be excommunicated without warning?

tee

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

How would you like to be excommunicated without warning?

tee

The Catholic Church’s resounding condemnation of abortion as murder is itself a warning.

By all means, however, the hierarchy should warn legislators that they will be excommunicated publicly and by name (with what canon law calls “inflicted excommunications”) if they obstinately persist in endangering the lives of unborn children and in scandalizing the faithful and society at large.

But the catechesis and the admonitions should take days, not years. Too much precious time has already been wasted–decades of it. The United Kingdom first legalized abortion in 1967. The United States did so in 1973.

**Unborn children are being murdered today. **

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[OriginalJS]

From what reading I have done, the Church learned a long time ago that excommunication is simply not productive of positive results. The Church has a long memory. This is the reason BXVI and others in the hierarchy are not going to excommunicate American politicians over the abortion issue.

 

[rien]

The Pope is turning into a big disappointment. Souls are being lost and the Vatican does not care. Cater to the current culture. Is it any wonder orthodox catholics are leaving the Church in droves? Mainly for Orthodoxy.

Any wonder the Pope seems to be backing off a fuller grant to the Tridentine Mass. I think he knows the bisops will refuse to implement it in the West and it would show that basically the See of Peter has lost all effective control of the Church.

 

[tee_eff_em]

The Catholic Church’s resounding condemnation of abortion as murder is itself a warning.

By all means, however, the hierarchy should warn legislators that they will be excommunicated publicly and by name (with what canon law calls “inflicted excommunications”) if they obstinately persist in endangering the lives of unborn children and in scandalizing the faithful and society at large.

But the catechesis and the admonitions should take days, not years. Too much precious time has already been wasted–decades of it. The United Kingdom first legalized abortion in 1967. The United States did so in 1973.

Unborn children are being murdered today.

Keep and spread the Faith.

But is legislative support for abortion an excommunicable offense?

Canon lawyers seem to be of the opinion that it is not, at least according to Edward N Peters’s In the Light of the Law blog:

The virtually unanimous opinion among canon lawyers is that no canon, not even Canon 1398 on abortion, makes pro-abortion legislative activity an excommunicable offense. Therefore, the many complications arising from the fact that some excommunications are *latae sententiae *(automatic) while others are not, do not impact this discussion. Of this canon it may nevertheless be said, “Anyone who, as a result of his actions, has been excommunicated, suffers a variety of canonical consequences, including but not limited to being barred from receiving the Eucharist.”

Is it grave matter that might be sufficient to bar one from the Eucharist? Yes, it may be. (But that is *not *the same thing as excommunication).

tee

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

But is legislative support for abortion an excommunicable offense?

Canon lawyers seem to be of the opinion that it is not, at least according to Edward N Peters’s In the Light of the Law blog:

Is it grave matter that might be sufficient to bar one from the Eucharist? Yes, it may be. (But that is *not *the same thing as excommunication).

tee

Just a minute, please.

The above contributor states that a legislator’s vote for legalized abortion “may be” sufficient to bar him or her from receiving the body and blood of Christ. ***May be?? ***

Let’s remember that we’re discussing legislative support for mass murder. As Pope John Paul II teaches in section 58 of the 1995 encyclical Evangelium vitae, abortion is murder.

Regardless of misguided opinions expressed by canonists, legislators who support the legalized murder of unborn children may and *must *be excommunicated. By that I mean public, by-name excommunications–or what are called in canon law (canon 1314) “inflicted excommunications” (*ferendae sententiae *excommunications).

It’s true that only those personally, directly, and immediately involved in procuring a completed abortion are “automatically” excommunicated under canon 1398 with what is known canonically as a latae sententiae excommunication, but that is hardly the end of the discussion.

Canon law gives the Pope and the bishops the right to impose an inflicted excommunication on any Catholic who creates a grave scandal (canons 1318 and 1341-1342).

Here are examples of canons that the Pope and the bishops may invoke to impose inflicted excommunications on Catholic legislators who betray the lives of the unborn, thus cooperating in murder and scandalizing other Catholics and society at large:

“Can. 1369 A person who in a public show or speech, in published writing, or in other uses of the instruments of social communication utters blasphemy, gravely injures good morals, expresses insults, or excites hatred or contempt against religion or the Church is to be punished with a just penalty.”

“Can. 1371 The following are to be punished with a just penalty:
“1. in addition to the case mentioned in can. 1364, §1, a person who teaches a doctrine condemned by the Roman Pontiff or an ecumenical council or who obstinately rejects the doctrine mentioned in can. 750, §2 or in can. 752 and who does not retract after having been admonished by the Apostolic See or an ordinary;
“2. a person who otherwise does not obey a legitimate precept or prohibition of the Apostolic See, an ordinary, or a superior and who persists in disobedience after a warning.”

“Can. 1399 In addition to the cases established here or in other laws, the external violation of a divine or canonical law can be punished by a just penalty only when the special gravity of the violation demands punishment and there is an urgent need to prevent or repair scandals.”

In addition to the above canons, which provide a veritable arsenal for use in excommunicating via ferendae sententiae excommunications those legislators who promote the mass murder of the unborn, let us note that the final canon of the Code of Canon Law (canon 1752) reminds us that the “supreme law in the Church” is “the salvation of souls.” The salvation of souls–those of unborn children, those of the legislators who cooperate with their murderers, those of scandalized Catholics, and those of every other human being–the salvation of souls *demands *that those legislators be excommunicated.

Catholics may verify the above canons for themselves on the Vatican’s Web site:

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Just a minute, please.

The above contributor states that a legislator’s vote for legalized abortion “may be” sufficient to bar him or her from receiving the body and blood of Christ. ***May be?? ***

Just a minute, please.

*This contributor *has reported what he has been told is the opinion of virtually every canon lawyer. *This contributor *is decidedly not himself a canon lawyer (and suspects that neither is the above contributor).

*This contributor *does not automatically classify the opinions of canonists and bishops to be “misguided”, even if he may at times disagree with them. Rather, this contributer, when he finds himself at cross opinion with those experts of the Church, attempts to look first for fault in his own understanding.

Granted: St Teresa of Avila chided the pope to return from Avignon. But *this contributor *does not dare to place himself in her league.

Contributed, whether you approve or not,
tee

 

[cmt]

From what reading I have done, the Church learned a long time ago that excommunication is simply not productive of positive results. The Church has a long memory. This is the reason BXVI and others in the hierarchy are not going to excommunicate American politicians over the abortion issue.

:yup:

 

[Genesis315]

The Pope is turning into a big disappointment. Souls are being lost and the Vatican does not care. Cater to the current culture. Is it any wonder orthodox catholics are leaving the Church in droves? Mainly for Orthodoxy.

Ironically, the Orthodox do even less. In Greece, those in government must be Orthodox, and yet they have legalized abortion and some of the highest abortion rates in Europe despite the country being 98% Orthodox.

 

[Genesis315]

Just a minute, please.
Granted: St Teresa of Avila chided the pope to return from Avignon. But *this contributor *does not dare to place himself in her league.

Contributed, whether you approve or not,
tee

That would actually be St. Catherine of Siena–EVERYONE should read her book, *The Dialogue *to see what the proper response is to crises, corruption, laxity, etc. in the Church (and our time is not nearly as bad as hers, and yet the behavior of some of us who constantly complain and criticize and are scandalized by everything would be found reprehensible to her.)

 

[Genesis315]

Ironically, the Orthodox do even less. In Greece, those in government must be Orthodox, and yet they have legalized abortion and some of the highest abortion rates in Europe.

Also, check out this Orthodox member who has not been excommunicated, while supporting partial birth abortion in the US:

ontheissues.org/Social/Paul_Sarbanes_Abortion.htm

 

[Genesis315]

The Pope is turning into a big disappointment. Souls are being lost and the Vatican does not care. Cater to the current culture. Is it any wonder orthodox catholics are leaving the Church in droves? Mainly for Orthodoxy.

Also, check out this Orthodox member who has not been excommunicated, while supporting partial birth abortion, human cloning, and other crimes in the US:

ontheissues.org/Social/Paul_Sarbanes_Abortion.htm

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

From what reading I have done, the Church learned a long time ago that excommunication is simply not productive of positive results. The Church has a long memory. This is the reason BXVI and others in the hierarchy are not going to excommunicate American politicians over the abortion issue.

If excommunication weren’t productive and effective as far as the salvation of souls and the defense of the one true Faith are concerned, then Our Lord wouldn’t have given his Apostles and their successors in the episcopate the authority to excommunicate.

After having ominously warned his listeners about the sin of scandal, Jesus told them:

"If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector" (Mt 18:17; 1986 NAB).

---

If we’re going to be logical and coherent, the only way to evade the urgent need for the excommunication of politicians supporting legalized abortion is to deny that abortion is murder.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[childofmary1143]

But is legislative support for abortion an excommunicable offense?

Canon lawyers seem to be of the opinion that it is not, at least according to Edward N Peters’s In the Light of the Law blog:

Is it grave matter that might be sufficient to bar one from the Eucharist? Yes, it may be. (But that is *not *the same thing as excommunication).

tee

I am not a Canon Lawyer and I did read his blog and web page however I believe the problem here is that we are focusing too much on the Legal side of Church Law rather than the Moral Law. It utterly amazes me how the abortionist, woman seeking the abortion can be excommunicated for an abortion but not the “Catholic” Politician who’s vote MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO COMMIT AN ABORTION.

 

[tee_eff_em]

I am not a Canon Lawyer and I did read his blog and web page however I believe the problem here is that we are focusing too much on the Legal side of Church Law rather than the Moral Law.

Excommunication is a legal matter. It is not a disciplinary stick which may be wielded at will.

It utterly amazes me how the abortionist, woman seeking the abortion can be excommunicated for an abortion but not the “Catholic” Politician who’s vote MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO COMMIT AN ABORTION.

Abortion is impossible when it is illegal?? News to me.

tee

 

[BAIRBRE]

The Pope is turning into a big disappointment. Souls are being lost and the Vatican does not care. Cater to the current culture. Is it any wonder orthodox catholics are leaving the Church in droves? Mainly for Orthodoxy.

Any wonder the Pope seems to be backing off a fuller grant to the Tridentine Mass. I think he knows the bisops will refuse to implement it in the West and it would show that basically the See of Peter has lost all effective control of the Church.

YES, you are right. I went to Orthodox Mass this past Sunday. This church is not part of our Diocese. However, the homily was about our diocese and closings. Father Rochell of ETWN was mentioned in regards to the church.

The Orthodox Church is not part of the diocese and it sees the Papalcy as vacant. Bishop Lebrvre was excommunicated for disobeying the Pope for selecting a Bishop as his replacement. I don’t think that the Orthodox Catholics who believe they are the TRue Catholic Church wants to be part of Vatican II in any way. If our Bishops sell our churches, land etc., they would not sell to orthodox Catholics because everyone would join the orthodox.

Now the Diocese does allow Latin rite…within it’s own control. Ecclesai…something.

They should excommunicate public leaders because they promoting sin which goes against teachings of Catholic Church. These individuals are not sorry for it either…so why should they receive communion. Other people have been denied communion for less sin.



Also, the false priests who were pedophiles should have been excommunicated instead of just defrocked. The Bishops have condoned sin by covering up, lies…

 

[childofmary1143]

Excommunication is a legal matter. It is not a disciplinary stick which may be wielded at will.

Abortion is impossible when it is illegal?? News to me.

tee

Did I say that it was impossible to have an abortion when its illegal? I don’t think so. Why are you twisting my words around like that? Don’t you think that abortion is the greatest holocaust that we are currently facing in the world today?

 

[Eschato]

If excommunication weren’t productive and effective as far as the salvation of souls and the defense of the one true Faith are concerned, then Our Lord wouldn’t have given his Apostles and their successors in the episcopate the authority to excommunicate.

After having ominously warned his listeners about the sin of scandal, Jesus told them:

***“If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector” (*Mt 18:17; 1986 NAB).

---

If we’re going to be logical and coherent, the only way to evade the urgent need for the excommunication of politicians supporting legalized abortion is to deny that abortion is murder.

Keep and spread the Faith.

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Did I say that it was impossible to have an abortion when its illegal? I don’t think so. Why are you twisting my words around like that?

You said the politicians’ “vote MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO COMMIT AN ABORTION.”

Perhaps you did not mean this, but I hope you can understand how I would come to the conclusion that you did. I do not intend to twist your words, but to interpret their plain meaning. If you meant something else, you are free to clarify.

tee