Bishops adopt statement on pastoral care of homosexuals

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Ok—does anyone else have a problem with the following. How on earth can a child be brought up following the Catholic Faith----when the child has two same sex parents. What kind of position does that put the child in.

catholicnews.com/data/sto…ns/0606489.htm

The church “does not support the adoption of children by same-sex couples,” but it should not refuse baptism to such children if there is “a well-founded hope that the children will be brought up in the Catholic religion,” it says.
I don’t have a problem with this. I do have a problem with a child being raised by people who affirm a ‘gay’ identity and lifestyle. The gender confusion alone is a bad enough thing to be inflicted upon a child.

But here it is only talking about baptism. A child should not be denied baptism only because of his ‘parents’. The “well-founded hope” is nothing new.
 
No. They said the inclinations are disordered, NOT the persons. The inclinations are inherently disordered. A desire for sex with a person of the same gender can never be ordered toward anything good and that is why it is inherently disordered. They actually point this out in the document. I guess I’ll post that here and let it speak for itself.

The document makes it quite clear that the person is not disordered. The inherent nature of the disorderness of the inclinations doesn’t make the inclinations permanent or unchangeable or inseperable from the person.

Again. People with homosexual inclinations are not a distinct species of person as the popular culture claims. Affirming people in a false identity by calling them homosexual or gay is uncharitable.
Which then brings us back full circle to: a person with homosexual inclinations does not have to be homosexual, but actually with what? faith? psychiatric treatment? medication? or just plain will power? be a heterosexual. In other words, if we say it is not an inseperable or a changeable part of the person, they can just stop acting as they used to say when I was growing up “nutty” and start being like everyone else correct? Are you saying that being homosexually oriented is a life choice and can be changed and redirected toward heterosexuality? People are homosexual in preference because they are, what, nuts? Which is what heterosexuals have been claiming for years: homosexuals are homosexual because they want to be, but not because they have to be.
 
I went to a culture and diversity training class, and homosexuals were listed as a minority-as if they were a race. I get very confused with this topic because I feel such compassion for their situation. This is not my cross, but as each one of us has a cross to bear, we can look at others and say “I could never bear that cross.” Just as Jesus carried the Cross to save us all, so we must pick up our cross. We are given the graces we need to carry the cross, and joy will be attainable in that way.
Exactly. As if they were a race. And this is not true. But calling people homosexuals is against truth. This confusion you experience is exactly why I insist on not calling people gay or homosexuals.
I’d say genetics is in the realm of natural science. How do you know homosexuality does not have a genetic component?
From my own experience with it for one. But I can do better than that.

“Identical twins have identical genes. If homosexuality was a biological condition produced inescapably by the genes (e.g. eye color), then if one identical twin was homosexual, in 100% of the cases his brother would be too. But we know that only about 38% of the time is the identical twin brother homosexual. Genes are responsible for an indirect influence, but on average, they do not force people into homosexuality. This conclusion has been well known in the scientific community for a few decades (e.g. 6) but has not reached the general public. Indeed, the public increasingly believes the opposite.”
narth.com/docs/whitehead2.html
 
No. They said the inclinations are disordered, NOT the persons. The inclinations are inherently disordered. A desire for sex with a person of the same gender can never be ordered toward anything good and that is why it is inherently disordered. They actually point this out in the document. I guess I’ll post that here and let it speak for itself.

The document makes it quite clear that the person is not disordered. The inherent nature of the disorderness of the inclinations doesn’t make the inclinations permanent or unchangeable or inseperable from the person.

Again. People with homosexual inclinations are not a distinct species of person as the popular culture claims. Affirming people in a false identity by calling them homosexual or gay is uncharitable.
First of all we do not know if there is a genetic component. I resent it when people claim homosexuality is an inherited trait and I equally reject it when they say it is not. Because the fact is WE DO NOT KNOW.

But the my problem with your willingness to simply throw it out as a component of a person, your willingness to jump right into stating that it is not inseparable, not unchangeable is that it puts us right back into the 1940’s and 1950’s when everyone ran around saying a guy “was a fairy because he had not met the right girl”. All he had to do was meet the correct Betty Boop and presto his homosexual inclinations would disappear. I think that is rather unrealistic. Especially since there are so many men out there who wish that would happen to them and it doesn’t. So many men who literally tried to make it happen and it didn’t. And it rather puts an unreasonable demand on any woman who is around men with homosexual inclinations. I think people do not give credit or credence now as well as then as to how strong a part of a person their sexual inclination really is.
 
Which then brings us back full circle to: a person with homosexual inclinations does not have to be homosexual, but actually with what? faith? psychiatric treatment? medication? or just plain will power? be a heterosexual.
Nothing. My case is that no one is a homosexual to begin with. That homosexual is not a type of person but only the experience of an inclination. If by homosexual it is meant someone with an attraction to the same sex, then yes, some people are homosexuals. That could be a legitimate use of the word. But it is almost always taken to mean a type of person who by his very nature is attracted to the same sex. There is no person who’s nature is to be attracted to the same sex. That is what I’m speaking against here and why I oppose the use of the word to decribe persons.
In other words, if we say it is not an inseperable or a changeable part of the person, they can just stop acting as they used to say when I was growing up “nutty” and start being like everyone else correct?
It is not an inseperable or unchangeable part of the person. Yes, the attraction can be changed. But it’s not easy and it isn’t just a matter of deciding not have the inclinations. The attractions are not chosen but how to act upon the attraction is a choice. Because of various psychological or even practical reasons, it is probably not possible for everyone who experiences homosexual inclinations to rid themselves of them. Many people however have experienced a great diminishment of the attractions.
Are you saying that being homosexually oriented is a life choice and can be changed and redirected toward heterosexuality?
No, experiencing a homosexual orientation is not a life choice. I never chose this. Yes, many men have experienced a redirection of their inclinations toward hetersexual inclinations.
People are homosexual in preference because they are, what, nuts? Which is what heterosexuals have been claiming for years: homosexuals are homosexual because they want to be, but not because they have to be.
People are not homosexual; inclinations are homosexual.
 
First of all we do not know if there is a genetic component. I resent it when people claim homosexuality is an inherited trait and I equally reject it when they say it is not. Because the fact is WE DO NOT KNOW.
We do know.

“There is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is simply “genetic.” ***And none of the research claims there is.***Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public.”
narth.com/docs/istheregene.html
But the my problem with your willingness to simply throw it out as a component of a person, your willingness to jump right into stating that it is not inseparable, not unchangeable is that it puts us right back into the 1940’s and 1950’s when everyone ran around saying a guy “was a fairy because he had not met the right girl”. All he had to do was meet the correct Betty Boop and presto his homosexual inclinations would disappear. I think that is rather unrealistic.
That is very unrealistic and that kind of thinking has caused much harm to people who have homosexual inclinations. You are right to reject it. But many men, having found the root of the unmet needs that cause the attraction, have found a way out of homosexual thoughts.
Especially since there are so many men out there who wish that would happen to them and it doesn’t. So many men who literally tried to make it happen and it didn’t.
I have seen these men. I have seen them in their agony. I am one of these men. Things I tried for years never worked. I couldn’t will or pray my way out of it. Dating women didn’t help. Getting religous didn’t help. Drinking didn’t help. But by the grace of God, the support of friends, and some extremely hard and painful emotional work I am now experiencing my homosexual inclinations diminishing. And I know what work I still need to do.
And it rather puts an unreasonable demand on any woman who is around men with homosexual inclinations. I think people do not give credit or credence now as well as then as to how strong a part of a person their sexual inclination really is.
I’m not sure what you mean about the demand on a woman.

I agree with you that many people don’t understand at all how strong the inclinations are and how natural they feel. I hear your anger and I believe it is justified. Many Christians shame people right into a homosexual lifestyle by their careless attitute and ignorance.
 
We do know.

“There is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is simply “genetic.” ***And none of the research claims there is.***Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public.”
narth.com/docs/istheregene.html

That is very unrealistic and that kind of thinking has caused much harm to people who have homosexual inclinations. You are right to reject it. But many men, having found the root of the unmet needs that cause the attraction, have found a way out of homosexual thoughts.

I have seen these men. I have seen them in their agony. I am one of these men. Things I tried for years never worked. I couldn’t will or pray my way out of it. Dating women didn’t help. Getting religous didn’t help. Drinking didn’t help. But by the grace of God, the support of friends, and some extremely hard and painful emotional work I am now experiencing my homosexual inclinations diminishing. And I know what work I still need to do.

I’m not sure what you mean about the demand on a woman.

I agree with you that many people don’t understand at all how strong the inclinations are and how natural they feel. I hear your anger and I believe it is justified. Many Christians shame people right into a homosexual lifestyle by their careless attitute and ignorance.
I am not particularly angry about anything. But I am firm and I guess that came out a bit here. I have never to my knowledge experienced any homosexual tendencies. so my firsthand knowledge is rather lacking. My only experience is from being around and with people who know nothing else.

And I would hate for people to use the Bishop’s statement to belittle how strong the inclinations are, how difficult the temptations, and not only that, there is the peer pressure from the (excuse me) homosexual community itself to say homosexuality is inseparable and unchangeable.

We, as a Church, do not dare for a moment in ministry to underestimate how a. strong the inclination is, b. how strong the pressure to conform to the inclination is.

What I see is still more of a tendency to condemn rather than forgive. I am not calling it an addiction but this is the best example I could come up with:

A guy is trying to quit smoking after two packs a day for thirty years. The people around him “supporting” just keep doing it by telling him how right he is to quit, how smart, how good, how this and that. How bad smoking is, and ESPECIALLY what a moral problem it is, how they are wasting their god given sacred life, endangering others etc etc. All of this support is in the negative sense. Then the guy falls. He smokes. And all this supposed support which was really a latent condemnation has to be shouldered by him as well and what was supposedly supportive merely increases his sense of guilt, helplessness and hoplessness. when he admits to his fall, everyone rushes to assist with a “you can do it- just think how bad it is.”

A not good example but you get the drift. The homosexual person is confronted with negativite support everywhere. From his own community he receives negative support to avoid change and from the heterosexual community he receives negative support try change. this is what is wrong a lot of the time as well in ministries to people of homosexual tendencies. And we cannot afford to screw up with these people. There is too much at stake.
 
I agree. There is so much at stake and I like your smoking analogy. The only Catholic ministry that ministers to people with homosexual inclinations in a loving way is Courage. It was mentioned in the document as an example of the proper way. Unfortunatly, it was only in a footnote. If I had written the document it would have put a end to all other ministries and established Courage in every diocese.
 
I agree. There is so much at stake and I like your smoking analogy. The only Catholic ministry that ministers to people with homosexual inclinations in a loving way is Courage. It was mentioned in the document as an example of the proper way. Unfortunatly, it was only in a footnote. If I had written the document it would have put a end to all other ministries and established Courage in every diocese.
Maybe. We need to see how successful Courage is before we eliminate the other means though. Simply because the community of people with homosexual inclinations is our most vulnerable now and not really up to any more traumas and shocks. Anyone who has spent time in any hard core homosexual community knows the extent of alienation. And it is because the support that is out there, especially among lay people, is of the negative variety. I think we all know now that homosexual inclinations are bad. I don’t think it is useful or helpful at this point to keep hitting people over the head with the badness of it all. A person dying of AIDS is just not in a position to hear more “bad.” We need to offer something hopeful and more than that we need to give a sense of dignity and God’s purposefulness back to those who experienced these inclinations in a painful sinful way. God’s purpose in creating these human beings was not to make bad people or bad inclinations. So if we focus only on the inclinations, where does that get us? In ministry, the stress it seems to me has got to come off a discussion of the inclinations and into something more meaningful for these people.

This is a trite example but still it serves. Years ago, when I quit smoking I went to two different support groups. The first one kept showing me what my lungs would look like after smoking and had us close our eyes while we imagined the sufferings of cancer.
Worked for all of three hours.
The second support group had us experience taking big gulps of air freely, and close our eyes and imagine swimming in the sea and running up the stairs and always smelling good and our teeth being white.
The first one had us experience being sick and dying.
The second one had us experience being alive and healthy.
The second one worked, but only because we were not running away from something but running toward something. That was the key difference.
 
Exactly. As if they were a race. And this is not true. But calling people homosexuals is against truth. This confusion you experience is exactly why I insist on not calling people gay or homosexuals.

From my own experience with it for one. But I can do better than that.

“Identical twins have identical genes. If homosexuality was a biological condition produced inescapably by the genes (e.g. eye color), then if one identical twin was homosexual, in 100% of the cases his brother would be too. But we know that only about 38% of the time is the identical twin brother homosexual. Genes are responsible for an indirect influence, but on average, they do not force people into homosexuality. This conclusion has been well known in the scientific community for a few decades (e.g. 6) but has not reached the general public. Indeed, the public increasingly believes the opposite.”
narth.com/docs/whitehead2.html
38% defeats your argument. If 2% of the population is gay, then that is a .02 probability that any one person is gay. The chance that a random pair in the population is gay is .02 x .02 = .0004 which is .04%.

What is an indirect genetic influence? How does it differ from a direct genetic influence?

Conclusions are not well known in the scientific community until they have been demonstarted with the scientific method. That means observation, hypothesis, experimentation and conclusion. What has been the experimentation that demonstrates this well known conclusion? When did it become well known, and what experimentation demonstarted it? What the public believes has no bearing on natural science.
 
We do know.

“There is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is simply “genetic.” ***And none of the research claims there is.***Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public.”
narth.com/docs/istheregene.html

That is very unrealistic and that kind of thinking has caused much harm to people who have homosexual inclinations. You are right to reject it. But many men, having found the root of the unmet needs that cause the attraction, have found a way out of homosexual thoughts.

I have seen these men. I have seen them in their agony. I am one of these men. Things I tried for years never worked. I couldn’t will or pray my way out of it. Dating women didn’t help. Getting religous didn’t help. Drinking didn’t help. But by the grace of God, the support of friends, and some extremely hard and painful emotional work I am now experiencing my homosexual inclinations diminishing. And I know what work I still need to do.

I’m not sure what you mean about the demand on a woman.

I agree with you that many people don’t understand at all how strong the inclinations are and how natural they feel. I hear your anger and I believe it is justified. Many Christians shame people right into a homosexual lifestyle by their careless attitute and ignorance.
How does one jump from the observation that there is no evidence of a genetic component to homosexuality to the claim that there is no genetic component? Is it fair to say that no aspect of a human can have a genetic source unless we have identified the gene? Does this mean the operations of genes is a function of how much we know?
 
I don’t have a problem with this. I do have a problem with a child being raised by people who affirm a ‘gay’ identity and lifestyle. The gender confusion alone is a bad enough thing to be inflicted upon a child.

But here it is only talking about baptism. A child should not be denied baptism only because of his ‘parents’. The “well-founded hope” is nothing new.

That is just it. How can there be “well found hope” —when the teachings of the Church on same sex unions contradict the lifestyle the child has at home. Where is the “well found hope” if the union of two same sex people in itself—reflect that the Church’s teaching are not of account.
 
How does one jump from the observation that there is no evidence of a genetic component to homosexuality to the claim that there is no genetic component? Is it fair to say that no aspect of a human can have a genetic source unless we have identified the gene? Does this mean the operations of genes is a function of how much we know?
Well logically one doesn’t jump to that conclusion as it is also illogical. And history also says otherwise but:

I think maybe what he is saying is that there is no proof at this time that there is a genetic component therefore we must behave as if there is no genetic component because that is the best we can do with knowledge that we have.

When I say history I mean this- another awful example:

for many years schizophrenia eluded people. The sufferers were banned from society and locked up and earlier they were they were burned at the stake by frightened Puritans.

There were later many practices of trying to get the schizophrenic to change by insisting that all they had to do was want to badly enough.

By the sixties, people were getting the idea that it was a mental illness, not a spoiled personality that needed punishment, and schizophrenics were heavily medicated in the early sixties with pheno barbitols.

Mid sixties they were given electro shock and hot/ice bath treatments in state hospitals and sanatoriums.

By the eighties, it had occured to researchers that it was a chemical imbalance in the brain and drugs were developed that actually allowed schizophrenics for the first time ever to live happy productive lives as long as they were on medication.

By the nineties, researchers were looking for the genetic component. I am not sure that they have actually identified the component but there is reasonable certainty that it is a hereditary disease.

Now, being hereditary or a chemical imbalance permanent but treatable, does not make it okay to run around having psychotic hallucinations. But it does mean that the person can be treated effectively.

Homosexuality is not a mental illness. The Psychiatric Association has made that clear.

But my point is is that it is a lot easier to deal with something when you know exactly what it is.

But it is more difficult to get to the root of something when that thing generates extreme fear in society. Homosexuals now, just as schizophrenics then, generate a lot of extreme reaction and fear in our society and it cripples the research process and retards progress toward understanding it.

Eventually, a genetic component may be found. And that would be good because we could stop saying to homosexuals that all they have to do is stop being homosexual. Most claim they have no choice as to their sexual preference. That may well be true. But the fact remains that they have a choice as to whether they exercise that preference or not and that does not change whether it is genetic or not.

Something being genetic does not make it a preferable lifestyle. For instance down’s syndrome is genetic. Diabetes is genetic. We do not ask to have these genetic anamolies. But we have a different view of how to respond when we discover that they are in fact genetic. But for now, society will probably resist the idea of a genetic inheritance of homosexuality as we are still in the early stages of charity.
 
I agree. There is so much at stake and I like your smoking analogy. The only Catholic ministry that ministers to people with homosexual inclinations in a loving way is Courage. It was mentioned in the document as an example of the proper way. Unfortunatly, it was only in a footnote. If I had written the document it would have put a end to all other ministries and established Courage in every diocese.
I just read through the Courage website. Yes it is excellent. Unfortunately they do not yet maintain a forum. That is too bad. It might offset some of the more damaging forums out there. But yes this group should increase and thank you for mentioning it.
couragerc.net/
 
Ok—does anyone else have a problem with the following. How on earth can a child be brought up following the Catholic Faith----when the child has two same sex parents. What kind of position does that put the child in.

catholicnews.com/data/sto…ns/0606489.htm

The church “does not support the adoption of children by same-sex couples,” but it should not refuse baptism to such children if there is “a well-founded hope that the children will be brought up in the Catholic religion,” it says.
 
I am struggling with this. The Catholic school that my children attend is using this part of the document as a grounds for keeping the child of a same-sex couple at our school, allowing the couple to present themselves as a “family” on campus with their newly adopted baby, and for keeping a school policy that will allow other same-sex couples to enroll children at the school. What message are we sending the other children when our Catholic curriculum and Doctrine about family teaches something that is so different from what they are observing on the Catholic school campus?
 
I am struggling with this. The Catholic school that my children attend is using this part of the document as a grounds for keeping the child of a same-sex couple at our school, allowing the couple to present themselves as a “family” on campus with their newly adopted baby, and for keeping a school policy that will allow other same-sex couples to enroll children at the school. What message are we sending the other children when our Catholic curriculum and Doctrine about family teaches something that is so different from what they are observing on the Catholic school campus?
The message is that the soul of the child is extremely important to us without regard to who his parents are. We had in my kid’s catholic school Hindues muslims and the children of the unmarried.
 
The issue of whether same sex attraction is genetic or condition-based or a combination of both is irrelevant with regard to the morality of acting out on the inclination. Homosexual acts are evil; the homosexual lifestyle is gravely depraved. The inclination towards SSA is disordered but is not sinful in itself. This topic has become such a visible issue in recent years that the lifestyle has become acceptable to many. But what about those with sexual attraction to prepubescent children? What about the man who is sexually attracted to, say, blond girls under twelve? Similarly, the issue of whether the sexual attraction to young girls is genetic or condition-based or a combination of both is irrelevant with regard to the morality of acting out on the inclination.
What I see is still more of a tendency to condemn rather than forgive. I am not calling it an addiction but this is the best example I could come up with:

A guy is trying to quit smoking after two packs a day for thirty years. The people around him “supporting” just keep doing it by telling him how right he is to quit, how smart, how good, how this and that. How bad smoking is, and ESPECIALLY what a moral problem it is, how they are wasting their god given sacred life, endangering others etc etc. All of this support is in the negative sense. Then the guy falls. He smokes. And all this supposed support which was really a latent condemnation has to be shouldered by him as well and what was supposedly supportive merely increases his sense of guilt, helplessness and hoplessness. when he admits to his fall, everyone rushes to assist with a “you can do it- just think how bad it is.”

A not good example but you get the drift. The homosexual person is confronted with negativite support everywhere. From his own community he receives negative support to avoid change and from the heterosexual community he receives negative support try change. this is what is wrong a lot of the time as well in ministries to people of homosexual tendencies. And we cannot afford to screw up with these people. There is too much at stake.
This makes good sense, but would you hold (or withhold) the same approach to a person who has a sexual attraction to young girls. Believe it or not, there is a whole community of these people who ‘suffer’ from their disordered inclination also.

In Christ,
Irenaeus
 
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