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Luke6_37
Guest
In the comment below, replace “church” with “boyscouts”, and “priests” with “scout leaders”.
Bishops, cardinals continue to fudge On Questions at Vatican Conference
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Mark121359
Well-known member
What I don’t find convincing is that a “culture-of-clericalism” is to blame for the sexual abuse scandal. As well as your source of data.
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MagdalenaRita
Guest
So, you could go around and around with this question. Were the priests predatory and sought out the priesthood to specifically be around other males or were they homosexual and due to being in a place of temptation found it difficult to maintain celibacy? In the case with the boy scout there isn’t a celibacy issue but again did men seek out the boy scouts to be with other males or did those with homosexual tendencies find themselves in places of temptation?
Either way, point being, homosexual men outside the Church can also abuse young men just the same as there are heterosexual men outside the Church who abuse women.
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Luke6_37
Guest
My source of data? Are you blaming Cardinal Cupich or the studies he cites for the sex abuse scandal?Luke6_37:
That a “culture-of-clericalism” is to blame for the sexual abuse scandal. As well as your source of data.
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goout
Guest
This is simply untrue. Priests have all kinds of access to girls and women.
The facts are:
The abuse is overwhelmingly male on male, and not technically pedophilia, but pederasty.
Not all, but about 80%.
Let’s just admit what is: The priesthood is attractive to gay men who want to abuse.
Let’s figure out why that is. ( I think it’s obvious, but our problem solvers in the Church dont want to admit it).
Let’s solve the problem we actually have, not push an agenda.
Mark121359
Well-known member
Let’s just say I don’t have much confidence in that source and leave it at that!
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Luke6_37
Guest
I believe young gay Catholic men became priests prior to the sexual revolution in order to make the best of their sexual orientation in the context of a hostile culture. They found the all male celibacy of the priesthood the perfect explanation for why they were not living a conventional heterosexual married lifestyle.
Some young gay Catholic men were certainly enlisted by gay priests who showed them how they could live an undercover homosexual lifestyle within the Church. However, while adult gay priests having sexual relationships may be scandalous, it’s not criminal (unless it is sexual harassment). That’s not what the public outrage is all about.
We have no idea how many priests are gay, but it’s likely a higher percentage than among men in general. However, if the proportion of sexual predators among priests is the same as among men in general, then sexual orientation CAN’T be a risk factor for predatory behavior, because it has no effect.
If the proportion is lower than among men in general, then one could argue that the priesthood, or homosexuality, or the combination of the two is actually a protective factor against predatory behavior.
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Luke6_37
Guest
Which speaks to the divide in the Church that is so clearly laid out in the NY Times report, and begs the question, “What are you going to do about it?”Luke6_37:
Let’s just say I don’t have much confidence in that source and leave it at that!
Mark121359
Well-known member
100% agreement!
What can I do but pray! Pray for the leaders of the Church and hope for the best. And I always remember what Christ said.
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Luke6_37
Guest
Amen! +fiveLuke6_37:
100% agreement!
Pray! Pray for the leaders of the Church and hope for the best. And I always remember what Christ said.
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prayerrider
Guest
Culture of homosexuality is more like it. A network, with an agenda, as the great Cardinal Burke said last week.
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MikeInVA
Guest
I would think that the demographic that the priests have the greatest access to are older women. The majority of daily Mass participants (from my unscientific observation) are generally older women. Also, most of the staff in the churches I know of are predominantly women. I’ve never seen a church where children are left unattended for any period of time. They are brought to Mass by their parents and are taken out after Mass by the parents.
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TMC
Guest
That was not my experience as an altar boy, I was alone with priests all the time. Certainly it was not for long periods of time (and nothing untoward happened), but I can see how priests get access to young boys.
But to your point about access, the Pope recently admitted that there is a serious problem in the Church with priests sexually abusing nuns, and the Vatican revealed that the problem of priests fathering children is common enough that the Church has created policies on dealing with the offspring. So the real answer may be that the problem is not merely with homosexual priests or with pedophile priests (two different things, of course), but that those priests have received most of the media attention so far. The problem may be even larger than we currently realize.
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Luke6_37
Guest
Where things that way 30-40 years ago when most of the abuse was happening? Lots has changed since then.Luke6_37:
I would think that the demographic that the priests have the greatest access to are older women. The majority of daily Mass participants (from my unscientific observation) are generally older women. Also, most of the staff in the churches I know of are predominantly women. I’ve never seen a church where children are left unattended for any period of time. They are brought to Mass by their parents and are taken out after Mass by the parents.
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MikeInVA
Guest
Yes, I think that there were more women than men in and around the church back then as well.
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Luke6_37
Guest
They weren’t often alone with priests and they weren’t a vulnerable target. Some women who turned to priests for help were abused.Luke6_37:
Yes, I think that there were more women than men in and around the church back then as well.
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RobertAdams
Guest
One of the more bizarre quirks of contemporary Catholic discussions is that the same people who want to blame all of the Church’s ills on gay conspiracies, are also the most strident defenders of a mandatory celibacy. As if gay priests have hatched every devious scheme known to man but never thought to get behind theological arguements for why men who arent married to women should run everythinng.
Also,
Fr. Z and his ilk are intentionally obtuse. For every Fr. “Call me Bob” allegedly ruining the church you can point to an actual Maciel and Corapi.
Also,
Fr. Z and his ilk are intentionally obtuse. For every Fr. “Call me Bob” allegedly ruining the church you can point to an actual Maciel and Corapi.
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Luke6_37
Guest
There are no theological arguments for the rule of priestly celibacy. It is unheard of in both Scripture and Tradition, so there is no obstacle to removing it other than the fear of upsetting the status quo. Personally, I think that is exactly what we need right now.
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Thorolfr
Guest
The difference between pedophilia and pederasty does not seem very significant to me. According to one medical website on the stages of puberty:
According to the John Jay Report, although about 81% of the victims were male, 22.6% of the victims were age 10 or younger, 51% were between the ages of 11 and 14, and 27% were between the ages to 15 to 17 years. That means that about 73% were 14 and younger. In Australia, the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse reported in 2013 that children’s average age at the time of the abuse was 11.5 for boys and 10.5 for girls. An 11 or 12 or 13 year old is still a child for the most part, and still looks like a child. As the medical website say, “Boys mature at about 15 or 16,” so, the majority of these boys were not sexually mature and would not normally be of interest to adults with a mature sexuality.
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goout
Guest
True. That’s why I pointed out the technical nature of the distinction.
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