Bishops, cardinals continue to fudge On Questions at Vatican Conference

[Thorolfr]

True. That’s why I pointed out the technical nature of the distinction.

But you also said, “The priesthood is attractive to gay men who want to abuse.” If that is the case, it is mostly attractive to gay men with a rather immature sexuality who find 11 years olds sexually attractive. An 11 year old boy might be pubescent, but not by much.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

There are no theological arguments for the rule of priestly celibacy. It is unheard of in both Scripture and Tradition,

There are a couple of theological arguments for it on on the Vatican’s website. Both pages cite Scripture and Tradition.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...nts/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_bfoun_en.html

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...nts/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_theol_en.html

There are more pages with theological arguments than just these two there also.

so there is no obstacle to removing it other than the fear of upsetting the status quo. Personally, I think that is exactly what we need right now.

That would only introduce more problems.

 

[Luke6_37]

There are a couple of theological arguments for it on on the Vatican’s website. Both pages cite Scripture and Tradition.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_bfoun_en.html

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...nts/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_theol_en.html

There are more pages with theological arguments than just these two there also.

Why don’t you summarize them in a nutshell?

 

[Babaganoush]

I think part of the problem is that no one is willing to take responsibility. They are all willing to make ‘heartfelt’ apologies, but no one is willing to take responsibility and do what has to be done. The bishops are no longer responsible for what happens in their dioceses. They kick it up the chain. The pope can’t handle every diocese, so he kicks it down the chain. At the same time there is a sort of undermining of the bishops authority. The bishops of the US were prevented from doing anything about it in the US last year and they were told to wait until the Vatican summit. I would say that the ‘airport bishops’ are a large part of the problem. Bishops spend so much time traveling and doing administrive things that they have no time to spend in their diocese with the priests that they are supposed to be in charge of. The spiritual life of the bishop and his connection with the priests and the local church have been completely degraded.

There is a good video on YouTube with Taylor marshal talking to grandma Dwight longenecker about the history of it. It is pretty interesting.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Why don’t you summarize them in a nutshell?

I’ll let you read them. They are not too long. As I said there are others on the Vatican website also.

 

[OraLabora]

The article made me realize that many conservative Bishops either don’t understand how social research works, or simply find it more convenient to point the finger at “a gay culture” rather than admit that it’s really their own culture-of-clericalism that is to blame for the sexual abuse scandal.

The conservative bishops are even, in some cases, part of the “gay culture” themselves. Example, the vocally anti-gay Cardinal O’Brien who turned out to be homosexual himself and abusing his own seminarians.

I fear he was not alone. If Cardinal Pell’s conviction is upheld in appeal, he will be part of that as well.

It’s to the point where if I hear a conservative prelate railing against homosexuality, I start to question whether he is, himself, secretly gay.

They really do have a credibility issue, and have played right into Satan’s hands.

When one considers that the vast majority of priests who are under scrutiny for abuse did so in parishes in which much of the functions of the parish, from the Mass and its planning to the programs chosen for catechesis, parish groups, parish finances, representatives, etc. were performed by laity, and that again the priests were of the “call me Bob”, “we are church” type in which the entire role of the priest was totally downplayed while parishioners were given titles of ‘minister of this’ and ‘minister of that’, the entire church would sing the doxology together, ‘gather round the altar’ together, talk about the ‘priesthood of all believers’, etc., _where the heck is the so-called ‘clericism’? _

This problem goes back to well before the Council. It has nothing to do with how the Mass is celebrated, or how the parish is run or what happened after the Council, and everything to do with 1) predators finding their way into a position of trust, and 2) a culture of secrecy and cover up. Likely because those covering up have their own skeletons in the closet.

My late mother knew of a predator priest in her own parish in the 1940s. Everyone knew to not leave their children alone with that particular priest.

I think part of the problem is that no one is willing to take responsibility. They are all willing to make ‘heartfelt’ apologies, but no one is willing to take responsibility and do what has to be done. The bishops are no longer responsible for what happens in their dioceses.

Indeed, what I hear coming out of Rome sounds more and more like what I hear coming out of Ottawa, London or Washington. Political gobbledegook.

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

Why don’t you summarize them in a nutshell?

I’ll let you read them. They are not too long. As I said there are others on the Vatican website also.

I looked at them, they are very long.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I looked at them, they are very long.

Hmm. Interesting. Well I guess you could just kind of skim them or read the summaries at the bottom of the page.

.

 

[Luke6_37]

This problem goes back to well before the Council. It has nothing to do with how the Mass is celebrated, or how the parish is run or what happened after the Council, and everything to do with 1) predators finding their way into a position of trust, and 2) a culture of secrecy and cover up. Likely because those covering up have their own skeletons in the closet.

At the press conference, LifeSiteNews asked a question about the homosexual nature of the sexual abuse that shows they either don’t understand the difference between correlation and causation, or they are deliberately trying to link child sexual abuse with homosexuality.

However, the CNN reporter who comes after asked a question about the cover-up that was really good and totally stumped Cardinal Cupich and the other clergy at the table. She suggested, as you do, that “those covering up have their own skeletons in the closet”.

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

I looked at them, they are very long.

Hmm. Interesting. Well I guess you could just kind of skim them or read the summaries at the bottom of the page.

.

Just give me a couple of points to consider. You did read them, didn’t you?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Just give me a couple of points to consider. You did read them, didn’t you?

Yes, I read them and you can too.

My point was not to argue or debate priestly celibacy but to show that there are theological arguments for priestly celibacy based on scripture and tradition and many from the Popes. It is now up to you to read them.

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

Just give me a couple of points to consider. You did read them, didn’t you?

Yes, I read them and you can too.

My point was not to argue or debate priestly celibacy but to show that there are theological arguments for priestly celibacy based on scripture and tradition and many from the Popes. It is now up to you to read them.

They must be very convoluted arguments if you can’t summarize them easily, but if that’s all you’re willing to say, then I’ll let it drop.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I am thinking that you are looking for an argument or a debate that isn’t there.

Plus there are two ways to look at your comment, you know, but I am glad you are choosing to stop.