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Bishops' immigration expert calls new policy a step in the right direction
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Rudolfo
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I am so sick of our bishops getting involved in politics. This is a complex issue and not strictly “humanitarian.” We have real issues that these bishops should be addressing. We have a situation where on almost any given Sunday you can walk into a Catholic church and hear heresy from the priest. We have people who do not understand why IVF, embryonic stem cell research, IUD’s or abortion are wrong. If they want to delve into politics, how about correcting our pro-death politicians who receive communion? Instead they love to get involved in issue they repeatedly show they do not fully comprehend and are manipulated by Democrat lobbyists. Bishops, this is your job, if you recall: TEACH, GOVERN, SANCTIFY. And, uh, that means us, the faithful, ALL the faithful, not the Congress, unless it’s clearly a MORAL issue. This is a political one.
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RobbyS
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Names like “squatters” and “trespassers” can as easily be applied to as many of these people as the name “refugee.” I add, “freeloader,” because they use facilities without paying for them. Billions of dollars are spent each year to provide for their children and many more billions to provide health care. The country responsible for this is Mexico. I know that Mexico has always been badly governed, I know that the social and economic turmoil serves to cause millions to flee, but I also know that a few hundred families hold onto the wealth of that country selfishly. Yet our bishops never say a word about Mexico. Yes. send them back.Maybe they will saty there and start a revolution. The situation could hardly be worse.
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NewEnglandPriest
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Some of Mexico’s biggest problems are drug cartels. Drug cartels make their millions/billions by selling to US citizens and they fight the Mexican government with guns purchased in the USA with drug money made here.
Mexico and America have shared interests as well as causes for the problems.
Its up to Mexican bishops to speak on Mexican affairs and they do.
Have you ever lived in the middle of a war zone? I have not but I’ve met priests from Sierra Leone and they speak of horror.
Many of these people are not just Mexican nationals but also our brothers and sisters in Christ.
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George_Stegmeir
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I firmly disagree with both Rudolfo and RobbyS. First of all, immigration to the US-legal and illegal, is a moral as well as a political issue.
The history of the anti-immigration feelings and laws in the United States is one of racial and religious predjudice. Starting with the anti-Catholic “Know Nothing” party in the early 19th century in reaction to Irish immigration, Then, the first immigration laws that restricted the immigration of Chinese…the so-called Yellow Peril, in the late 19th century. Then came the laws of the 20th century that forbid immigration from Southern (Italy) and Eastern (Poland and Russia), largely because the immigrants were Jewish and Roman Catholic. These laws remained in effect until after WWII,when we had to let European displaced persons in, and East Indian and Chinese immigration was not opened up until after the Viet Nam War.
What most Americans don’t realize is that if an individual in most African, Asian and Latin American countries has the ability to scrape up the price of the fare to the US, and has the guts to leave his/her home and family to get here, they are most often smarter than other people from where originated.
As for our current illegals…the crime rate of illegals percentage wise,zing is well below that of people born here, and almost all of these people work at jobs that native born Americans will not touch…and for wages that Americans will not consider. Go into any restaurant kitchen…how many American kitchenmen and dishwashers do you think you will find? Go to any truck farm…especially on the West Coast. How many American vegetable and fruit pickers will you find.
Our current mish-mash of uninforceable immigration laws are the result of rampant anti-Mexican predjudice in California and the South Western States.
One hears so much anti-Latino garbage, especially in Florida. Well, I grew up in Miami during the 1940’s and even back then, the city of Miami was a Cuban town. After Fidel, most of the Cubans arrived literally with the shirts on their backs. I remember a former Justice of the Cuban Supreme Court working as a dining room waiter in a Miami Beach resort hotel, and a professor from the medical school of the University of Havana working as an orderly in Jackson Memorial Hospital. None of these people had papers when they arrived, and it was several years, and only after serious public agitation that they were allowed to stay and work legally.
If you ever have driven across the USA by car and seen the enormous empty spaces, you would realize that we have room for many more people. Remember, the secret of the strength of the USA is that up until recently, every few years we had a new wave of immigrants that revitalized our society. It is only in the last 50 years or so that we have become lazy and moribund. By legitimizing those so-called illegals who are already here, the US can only profit.
The history of the anti-immigration feelings and laws in the United States is one of racial and religious predjudice. Starting with the anti-Catholic “Know Nothing” party in the early 19th century in reaction to Irish immigration, Then, the first immigration laws that restricted the immigration of Chinese…the so-called Yellow Peril, in the late 19th century. Then came the laws of the 20th century that forbid immigration from Southern (Italy) and Eastern (Poland and Russia), largely because the immigrants were Jewish and Roman Catholic. These laws remained in effect until after WWII,when we had to let European displaced persons in, and East Indian and Chinese immigration was not opened up until after the Viet Nam War.
What most Americans don’t realize is that if an individual in most African, Asian and Latin American countries has the ability to scrape up the price of the fare to the US, and has the guts to leave his/her home and family to get here, they are most often smarter than other people from where originated.
As for our current illegals…the crime rate of illegals percentage wise,zing is well below that of people born here, and almost all of these people work at jobs that native born Americans will not touch…and for wages that Americans will not consider. Go into any restaurant kitchen…how many American kitchenmen and dishwashers do you think you will find? Go to any truck farm…especially on the West Coast. How many American vegetable and fruit pickers will you find.
Our current mish-mash of uninforceable immigration laws are the result of rampant anti-Mexican predjudice in California and the South Western States.
One hears so much anti-Latino garbage, especially in Florida. Well, I grew up in Miami during the 1940’s and even back then, the city of Miami was a Cuban town. After Fidel, most of the Cubans arrived literally with the shirts on their backs. I remember a former Justice of the Cuban Supreme Court working as a dining room waiter in a Miami Beach resort hotel, and a professor from the medical school of the University of Havana working as an orderly in Jackson Memorial Hospital. None of these people had papers when they arrived, and it was several years, and only after serious public agitation that they were allowed to stay and work legally.
If you ever have driven across the USA by car and seen the enormous empty spaces, you would realize that we have room for many more people. Remember, the secret of the strength of the USA is that up until recently, every few years we had a new wave of immigrants that revitalized our society. It is only in the last 50 years or so that we have become lazy and moribund. By legitimizing those so-called illegals who are already here, the US can only profit.
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Prodigal_Son1
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Ender
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It is comments like this that I find not just offensive but troubling as well. From the bishop’s perspective this might be a positive step but the Church has no position whatever on the matter and there is absolutely no basis for claiming that the Church supports this action.
George Stegmeir:
I think many bishops believe this as well, but it isn’t so - which is why the Church has no position on the myriad proposals being proposed to solve our immigration problems. There are no moral issues to be resolved in determining what actions will work. This is an entirely prudential issue.
Ah yes, the “I’m good, my opponents are bigots” claim. It is the argument that claims not so much that the problems are moral but that ones opponents are immoral. The problem with this claim is not simply that it is insulting but that it is irrelevant. The issue here is not who is good and who is bad but who is right and who is wrong, and even if we were the miserable souls you believe us to be that wouldn’t make our positions invalid. Deal with ideas if you think you can.
This is a myth. A few months ago McDonald’s had a National Hiring Day. For the 62,000 positions available they had … 1 million applicants. Last year a grocery store chain in Phoenix fired 300 illegals and hundreds of locals immediately came out to fill those jobs. The idea that illegals are only doing jobs no one else wants is ridiculous.
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Neil_Anthony
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This is one of those topics where we conservatives have a lot of frustration and difficulty.
It has given me a lot of food for thought to understand understand what liberals-at-heart have to go through when they have to put their politics aside to embrace church teaching.
It has given me a lot of food for thought to understand understand what liberals-at-heart have to go through when they have to put their politics aside to embrace church teaching.
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Ender
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I don’t think you properly distinguish between generalities and specifics. There is nothing in BXVI’s comments that can reasonably be interpreted as support for Obama’s decision on deportation. His comment was general: do "all that is possible … work against … instability … and … violations." You don’t seem to appreciate that he is calling on us not to implement specific proposals but to order our intentions properly before determining what proposals we should support based on the principles he outlines.
Nothing you cited supports the archbishop’s assertion that “the Church” supports this new policy.
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ANNE_2
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The Obama Administration is breaking the law.
Per the Constitution, the Administration has no authority to:
refuse to enforce laws,
to disobey laws,
and most importantly to write or re-write their own laws.
This is not the first time Mr. Appleby has made statements contrary to the “Catechism of the Catholic Church. Second Edition”.
Obama should be impeached.
His behavior and that of his Administration causes disrespect for the law by the public, and potental future slavery for all Americans in other matters.
It is important that the USCCB learns to understand this.
The USCCB, its staff, and its Committees should only be involved in politics in grave matters when the Salvation of Souls requires it, and then only according to the Gospel.
The USCCB should only be involved in matters that are in accord with the Magisterium. Not personal political beliefs. When they go off on their own they harm the Church in the USA.
The USCCB is not the Magisterium.
CCC- " 883 The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, as its head.
As such, this college has "\supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff. "
CCC - "2246 It is a part of the Church’s mission to pass moral judgments even in matters related to politics, whenever the fundamental rights of man or the salvation of souls requires it.
The means, the **only **means, she may use are those which are in accord with the Gospel and the welfare of all men according to the diversity of times and circumstances. "
From the Pope -
catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-stresses-unity-of-global-human-family-as-theme-of-upcoming-migrants-day/
CCC - " 2241… Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption.
Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them,** to obey its laws **and to assist in carrying civic burdens.
Note: the “CCC 2nd Ed” is from the Magisterium.
Per the Constitution, the Administration has no authority to:
refuse to enforce laws,
to disobey laws,
and most importantly to write or re-write their own laws.
This is not the first time Mr. Appleby has made statements contrary to the “Catechism of the Catholic Church. Second Edition”.
Obama should be impeached.
His behavior and that of his Administration causes disrespect for the law by the public, and potental future slavery for all Americans in other matters.
It is important that the USCCB learns to understand this.
The USCCB, its staff, and its Committees should only be involved in politics in grave matters when the Salvation of Souls requires it, and then only according to the Gospel.
The USCCB should only be involved in matters that are in accord with the Magisterium. Not personal political beliefs. When they go off on their own they harm the Church in the USA.
The USCCB is not the Magisterium.
CCC- " 883 The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, as its head.
As such, this college has "\supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff. "
CCC - "2246 It is a part of the Church’s mission to pass moral judgments even in matters related to politics, whenever the fundamental rights of man or the salvation of souls requires it.
The means, the **only **means, she may use are those which are in accord with the Gospel and the welfare of all men according to the diversity of times and circumstances. "
From the Pope -
catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-stresses-unity-of-global-human-family-as-theme-of-upcoming-migrants-day/
CCC - " 2241… Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption.
Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them,** to obey its laws **and to assist in carrying civic burdens.
Note: the “CCC 2nd Ed” is from the Magisterium.
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Ender
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I disagree inasmuch as I don’t find any conflict between what the Church actually teaches (as distinguished from the prudential opinions of certain bishops) and my political inclinations on how the problems of immigration should be solved.
The problem for liberals is that, on a number of topics relevant to them, the Church has spoken unambiguously - specifically, on topics dealing with actions that are intrinsically evil. There is no comparable problem for conservatives in that they take no position contrary to anything the Church teaches. The confusion arises when a generic guideline is interpreted to mean a specific policy is either required or banned, but no such assertion is valid. Individuals may agree completely on what the objective should be while holding completely opposite views on how to achieve that shared goal. The Church specifies the goal but she does not tell us how to reach it.
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NewEnglandPriest
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By your definition every Administration has violated the Constitution. Law Enforcement never enforces every law at all times, they make prudential decisions based on limited time and resources. Presidential Administraions also set priorities for federal enforcement.
The Church is more than just the Catechism. The Church has something to say on the moral implications of human endeavors.
This thread is not about Obama per se. This is a thread about the Church and immigration issues. If you want to argue about that there is the World News forum.
The Vatican would disagree.
On this issue the USCCB is actually following the lead of BJP2 and Pope Benedict.
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Neil_Anthony
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Well there are some issues that conservatives, of the neo-con variety, or fiscal libertarian types, will have trouble reconciling with church teaching. For example I was against just about all government intervention in the economy (e.g. against minimum wage, against laws the enforce collective bargaining, against anything that interfered with the free market). Those are topics that the church has taught clearly on, and the church doesn’t hold the libertarian view of economics.
I realize that on some other issues like this one, the church doesn’t speak infallibly, but many Catholics like me will still feel a duty to at least give great respect to what the bishops say. Which is difficult sometimes.
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Blacksword
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I am curious. You spend a great deal of time carefully parsing out Church teachings in these threads, and, some might say, a great deal of effort in dissembling, equivocating, and hair-splitting to attempt to remove ANY moral guidelines or general Church teachings from the conversation when it comes to immigration specifics. Yet I don’t recall ever reading your actual specific ideas or proposals about what should be done on the issue. Can you give us some details on how you would, specifically, amend the laws, enact targeted solutions, and otherwise address the macroeconomic, sociological, and societal issues involved in our current situation? What are your specific policy ideas that would address the undocumented immigrant population here and all the societal implications it has? Please be specific, and keep in mind the general moral aims that our Church does outline as the framework from which spirit any such proposals must flow, and to which they should comport. Thank you!
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Hboggs
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Amen
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lelhajj
Guest
the position of the leader of a country it is always controversial and of the Church evenmore. Leader of a country: just one country. Leader of the Church: all countries.
Wherever we are, as catholics, we should always be compassionate, specially towards the poor. Didn’t Jesus preach His whole life to be compassionate? to love your neighbor.
I certainly believe that politics and religion have lots of things in common. Aren’t we all humans, even the polititians are humans, aren’t we ruled by two laws: our religious laws and our legal laws? they both should be going hand in hand. We can not be good christians when we are talking about throwing out all the illegals and turn a blank eye to those suffering souls, especially talking about illegals who do not have any criminal record. Aren’t they, until now, perfoming a very low paid job and making also our food cheaper to be bought? our services to be at a lower costs comparing other nations where all these services are performed by their citizens? look up at europe and other countries which they pay so much for food and services. Spending so much money in wars that do not really have a justified cause have made our country to be in such a big debt where now we are even fighting and looking for those low paid jobs in order to survive. We support wrong actions when we support wars, the killing of so many innocent people. What are we teaching our children? that killing is ok? this is what we have supported. We look at what is happening around the world from an adult eyes, but i wonder, how the little children view all that is happening in this world. What message are we conveying to this future generation? If we proceed with such cold behavior, what can we expect from the youth when we become old? The less demand of drugs from American consumers, the less demand of trafficking drugs. I really think we are guilty of so many things that are happening in this world today.
Wherever we are, as catholics, we should always be compassionate, specially towards the poor. Didn’t Jesus preach His whole life to be compassionate? to love your neighbor.
I certainly believe that politics and religion have lots of things in common. Aren’t we all humans, even the polititians are humans, aren’t we ruled by two laws: our religious laws and our legal laws? they both should be going hand in hand. We can not be good christians when we are talking about throwing out all the illegals and turn a blank eye to those suffering souls, especially talking about illegals who do not have any criminal record. Aren’t they, until now, perfoming a very low paid job and making also our food cheaper to be bought? our services to be at a lower costs comparing other nations where all these services are performed by their citizens? look up at europe and other countries which they pay so much for food and services. Spending so much money in wars that do not really have a justified cause have made our country to be in such a big debt where now we are even fighting and looking for those low paid jobs in order to survive. We support wrong actions when we support wars, the killing of so many innocent people. What are we teaching our children? that killing is ok? this is what we have supported. We look at what is happening around the world from an adult eyes, but i wonder, how the little children view all that is happening in this world. What message are we conveying to this future generation? If we proceed with such cold behavior, what can we expect from the youth when we become old? The less demand of drugs from American consumers, the less demand of trafficking drugs. I really think we are guilty of so many things that are happening in this world today.
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Ender
Guest
Actually, I spend a great deal of effort trying to distinguish moral questions from prudential ones and pointing out the fact that most political issues - including immigration - are not moral problems and that what the Church has done is to provide guidelines and objectives … and that what she has not done is recommend any specific policies.
This is true; all I have done in most of these discussions is to point out that, whatever my ideas are, they are neither more nor less moral than anyone else’s. Beyond that I have simply disputed specific claims, like your descriptions of the Mexican economy.
I could give such details but that’s not what this thread is about. The topic is really whether the claim is valid that “From the Church’s perspective this is a positive step.” We can debate the probable consequences of implementing my proposals but they have nothing to do with that claim. If everyone will concede that this claim is invalid then we can move on, but not until.Can you give us some details on how you would, specifically, amend the laws, enact targeted solutions, and otherwise address the macroeconomic, sociological, and societal issues involved in our current situation? What are your specific policy ideas that would address the undocumented immigrant population here and all the societal implications it has? Please be specific, and keep in mind the general moral aims that our Church does outline as the framework from which spirit any such proposals must flow, and to which they should comport. Thank you!
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Beau_Ouiville
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When I said that the new policy was more in line with that of the bishops, all I got was quizzical stares.
Archbishop Chaput?
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_Abyssinia
Guest
I disagree with Kevin Appleby. This policy just encourages illegal immigrants to America, it is encouraging people to break the law.
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