Bishops' immigration expert calls new policy a step in the right direction

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Part of my business involves closing real estate transactions as an “outsource” for banks.

I was amused once when a protestant pastor came into the closing room all dour and in ill sorts. He was the seller, and we take buyer and seller separately because of bank privacy.

At the end, the preacher apologized for being in an ugly mood. He explained to me that he saw the buyer in the outer office when he came in and realized the buyer was a Hispanic who had come to his church for help and got plenty of it, under a different name, and not long before. Then this same guy plunks down thousands of dollars for the down payment to buy his house. Was he legal? Illegal? The pastor was told he was illegal when he was doling out the charity. A really sad story the man told, too. No job, no home, no money, mouths to feed. Of course, his employer was obviously persuaded by his ID that he was legal. His loan application showed that he had a job paying good money.

Things are not always as they seem.
I agree, things are not always as they seem. Just as we cannot make a generalized judgement against millions of people based on a few stories such as you tell.

I live in a rural community, and have worked at the local food bank distributing food. We noticed we didn’t have any of the Hispanics in this community coming in. We thought it might be because they probably assumed we’d ask for a social security number. We asked a nun who spoke Spanish to explain that was not a requirement, and that we were only setup to serve those that needed the food. We did have about 7 families start coming in. Some walked, some rode bicycles, none had cars. I have had the occasion to deliver food to a few and I assure you, they didn’t own the properties they occupied and the properties were not grand by any standard.

Just as I said we cannot make a generalized judgment against, we cannot make a generalized judgment for. We are not to judge. We are called to His principles and leave Him to judge. If we were to judge, where would our Church be if we judged it by the ‘bad apples’ in it’s history? People are not perfect, but we don’t neglect those that truly need because of those that take advantage.
 
As I have said before, illegals go home all the time. Yes, it might be tough to get the airfare to Poland or Yemen. But in the Western Hemisphere? All you need is a car. You don’t even need a car. A bus ticket will do just fine. I have known a lot of illegals over the years, and they go home repeatedly. No need to deport anybody except law breakers, perhaps. Illegals “deport” themselves, frequently. We need border security if we don’t want illegal immigrants to stay here.
My main point is that I don’t agree with those that say this is against Church teaching. In fact, I view the issue as quite the opposite of those that say it is against Church teaching. How quickly some ‘jump on’ the bishops over this issue, yet push the bishops on other issues?
 
But shouldn’t illegal immigrants try to become legal citizens?:confused:

(if you can’t tell, I’m not too knowledgable about immigration and asylum things in politics :o)
 
But shouldn’t illegal immigrants try to become legal citizens?:confused:

(if you can’t tell, I’m not too knowledgable about immigration and asylum things in politics :o)
My understanding of this policy is that it views individual statuses, and criminal records, and tries to prioritize those to be allowed to apply for work permits and those that should be deported. A work permit is only a beginning, and not an assurance of being granted citizenship.
 
My understanding of this policy is that it views individual statuses, and criminal records, and tries to prioritize those to be allowed to apply for work permits and those that should be deported. A work permit is only a beginning, and not an assurance of being granted citizenship.
That’s sounds smart.
 
But shouldn’t illegal immigrants try to become legal citizens?:confused:

(if you can’t tell, I’m not too knowledgable about immigration and asylum things in politics :o)
Yes, they should. However its not exactly easy to apply for legal status or citizenship if you’ve entered the country illegally.
 
Whenever this topic comes up, I am reminded of my late mother, a deeply religious, feisty Irish-American Catholic whose parents immigrated to Boston and worked as servants in the homes of the wealthy.

Mother’s politics were, to say the least, extremely conservative in virtually every way; she was a constant thorn in the side of the staffs of Ted Kennedy and Barney Frank. She was a hawk on the Vietnam war, as anti-communist as one could possibly be, and one of the first, very active, foot-soldiers in the Massachusetts pro-life movement. She would have keeled over at the thought of “gay marriage”.

However, she could never understand those who wanted to send packing people desperate to provide for their families and themselves, as her parents had been. “It’s a big country… There’s room!”, she often said. “As long as they want to work, let them stay.” Mother would have been on the side of the bishops in this one, bless her.
 
Whenever this topic comes up, I am reminded of my late mother, a deeply religious, feisty Irish-American Catholic whose parents immigrated to Boston and worked as servants in the homes of the wealthy.

Mother’s politics were, to say the least, extremely conservative in virtually every way; she was a constant thorn in the side of the staffs of Ted Kennedy and Barney Frank. She was a hawk on the Vietnam war, as anti-communist as one could possibly be, and one of the first, very active, foot-soldiers in the Massachusetts pro-life movement. She would have keeled over at the thought of “gay marriage”.

However, she could never understand those who wanted to send packing people desperate to provide for their families and themselves, as her parents had been. “It’s a big country… There’s room!”, she often said. “As long as they want to work, let them stay.” Mother would have been on the side of the bishops in this one, bless her.
Sounds like quite a lady! 👍
 
But shouldn’t illegal immigrants try to become legal citizens?:confused:

(if you can’t tell, I’m not too knowledgable about immigration and asylum things in politics :o)
They cannot, there currently is no path to legalization for such people, nor is there a path for others like them to immigrate legally in the first place. That is the precise problem…trust me, as an immigration attorney I can assure you that nearly all such persons would gladly take any avenue made available to them to legalize their status so they could obtain licenses, SSN’s, demand fair wages for their labor, report crimes when they are victims of criminal activity, travel safely to see and/or reunite with family, buy property, obtain health insurance, and generally do all the normal things we take for granted in modern civilized society.
 
Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving shelter to homeless, and caring for the sick, is not a moral issue?
This goes to precisely the point I’ve been trying to make in this discussion. The debate is not over *whether *we should feed the hungry, cloth the naked, give shelter to the homeless, or care for the sick but over *how *we can best do it. There is no one opposed to helping, the disagreements are over how to reconcile competing objectives. So - no - this is not a moral issue; it is entirely prudential. The bishops’ suggestions for specific solutions are not moral choices but practical ones based on their perceptions of what will work best for all involved. That I disagree with their perceptions on the best immigration solutions is no more an ethical dispute than disagreeing with them over which is the better team between the Yankees and the Red Sox.

Ender
 
This goes to precisely the point I’ve been trying to make in this discussion. The debate is not over *whether *we should feed the hungry, cloth the naked, give shelter to the homeless, or care for the sick but over *how *we can best do it. There is no one opposed to helping, the disagreements are over how to reconcile competing objectives. So - no - this is not a moral issue; it is entirely prudential. The bishops’ suggestions for specific solutions are not moral choices but practical ones based on their perceptions of what will work best for all involved. That I disagree with their perceptions on the best immigration solutions is no more an ethical dispute than disagreeing with them over which is the better team between the Yankees and the Red Sox.

Ender
I posted the article written by the Archbishop, who spoke with concern of how to best accomplish a immigration reform, but warned we shouldn’t over exaggerate the problem in making such a decision.

Christ’s teachings are moral, and without qualification. He didn’t say, stop and spend time trying to decide how to do. He just said ‘do’, or more precisely, ‘love’. The bishops, in my opinion, are echoing Christ’s teachings, which are moral.
The Church’s perspective on these issues is rooted in Jesus Christ’s teaching that every human person is created in God’s image and has God-given dignity and rights.
 
I agree, things are not always as they seem. Just as we cannot make a generalized judgement against millions of people based on a few stories such as you tell.

I live in a rural community, and have worked at the local food bank distributing food. We noticed we didn’t have any of the Hispanics in this community coming in. We thought it might be because they probably assumed we’d ask for a social security number. We asked a nun who spoke Spanish to explain that was not a requirement, and that we were only setup to serve those that needed the food. We did have about 7 families start coming in. Some walked, some rode bicycles, none had cars. I have had the occasion to deliver food to a few and I assure you, they didn’t own the properties they occupied and the properties were not grand by any standard.

Just as I said we cannot make a generalized judgment against, we cannot make a generalized judgment for. We are not to judge. We are called to His principles and leave Him to judge. If we were to judge, where would our Church be if we judged it by the ‘bad apples’ in it’s history? People are not perfect, but we don’t neglect those that truly need because of those that take advantage.
It is precisely because politicians make generalized judgments that we end up burdening our own populace, and, it seems, often without adequate foundational information to do it. Our own populace is burdened with healthcare costs so vast that, without even adding Obamacare to it, it will take up the entire GDP within 40 years, perhaps less. And that’s Medicare alone. So, because we want to feel altruistic, we seek to add yet more to that burden, realizing as we must, that it will be ruinous, not to distant generations, but to one living today. But we go ahead anyway.

When the “open borders” minded speak of this, they talk about, e.g., some poor person (usually a mother) who, alas, doesn’t have the means of subsistence, or says she doesn’t. Nobody checks any of that out. Nobody counts noses to see how many illegals are simply funding their “get ahead of the Rodriguez” project back home. Generalizations rule. But, of course, we can all indulge in such things when somebody else is doing the paying, or when we really can’t even discern who is doing the paying. We don’t know who is paying the price or what the price even is.

Do we need immigration? In my mind, definitely yes. Few would agree with me, but I believe this country not only has an aging population, I believe it is underpopulated even without considering the age mixture.

But why is it so offensive to suggest that it ought to be done in some fairly rational manner, and with safeguards to avoid at least the fraud that is so rampant among so many illegals? Let’s face it, most come from very corrupt societies. By countenancing their further cheating, all we are doing is endorsing the view that cheating and lying as a way of life is rewarded here.

We’re being conned by a lot of them. Is it the majority? Nobody has so much as a clue about that. Nobody does. All we hear is some story about some destitute mother who, for all anyone knows, does just fine “off the books”. I’m not impressed with what somebody’s alleged “home” looks like. Whose home is it really? Nobody knows but them. I know illegals who brag about getting tax rebates because they claim children that aren’t their own. I have talked to welfare workers who at least try to catch them at that, but largely don’t succeed. And who is going to look behind such things? Who is really going to investigate? Nobody does in any effective way. They can’t because there are too many to check out.

In my opinion, sweeping generalizations about the conditions of illegals have led us to imagine that somehow we’re doing good when we don’t know whether we are or not.

Another anecdote for the portfolio of conflicting stories. A local priest here, a Hispanic, felt so sorry for a woman with a terrible story about being abused by her husband who, she also said, abused the children, whipping them unmercifully with a belt when the whim struck him. The priest was so affected that he actually gave her the money to go hire a lawyer to get divorced. (Yes, he did. Paid her rent, too.) The husband was initially ordered to stay away from the wife and the children. Ultimately, of course, after all the testimony, the judge took the children aside in a private conference and asked them about the beatings they received at the hands of the husband. They just laughed. “Poppi” didn’t beat them at all. He was good to them. They wanted to live with him because of that and because “Mama” had strange men staying at their home all the time. So the Judge awarded the children to the husband and gave the wife restricted visitation; no men in the home during. So, between the priest and the judge, who was right? I think the answer fairly leaps to the tongue. But in all the stories, how many get tested out like that, by people who are experienced in telling the truth from a lie?

(continued)
 
My wife was assigned, as a visiting nurse, to a single-parent household in which a boy had serious health problems; treated under Medicaid. The mother was a single mother, admittedly illegal, who received all kinds of social benefits and lived in a fairly nice neighborhood. Mother’s daily routine consisted largely in watching Mexican soap operas. My wife asked her if she was Catholic (many are, of course) Oh no, she was now a Mormon, of recent vintage. But, she protested, the Mormons weren’t nearly as generous as the Methodists, whose church she had joined not terribly long before. Ultimately, the Methodist aid ran thin, and she had been around to a number of churches previously, so she was down to the Mormons at that moment. Corruption, and a corruption that we reward because we think somehow that imposing order on the mess is somehow uncharitable.

I have listened to protestant preachers who complain about that; how illegals “make the rounds”, pretending to be interested in this church or that, then switch when the material help thins out. Evidently, those pastors’ “comparing notes” is intermittent, but is also hampered by the name changes. They know they’re being had in a lot of cases; perhaps even most, but how to distinguish when one has no information, but a general feeling that they are supposed to “help the poor and the wayfarer”? They can’t, of course.
 
They cannot, there currently is no path to legalization for such people, nor is there a path for others like them to immigrate legally in the first place. That is the precise problem…trust me, as an immigration attorney I can assure you that nearly all such persons would gladly take any avenue made available to them to legalize their status so they could obtain licenses, SSN’s, demand fair wages for their labor, report crimes when they are victims of criminal activity, travel safely to see and/or reunite with family, buy property, obtain health insurance, and generally do all the normal things we take for granted in modern civilized society.
As an immigration attorney, then, you know the way to get legal is to go back to the country of origin and “get in line” like the others. There are avenues, and no question about it. It’s just that they’re very narrow avenues. The proper argument is for greater quotas, not to countenance disdain for the law and the citizens and others who are here legally, often with considerable difficulty.

As an immigration attorney, you also know how easy it is for illegals to obtain very convincing phony ID. I personally know a woman who makes them. She was busted about a year ago for it and slapped on the wrist. She’s now back in business. She really, really is good at it. Even offered to create one for me, just for fun, but I declined.
 
This goes to precisely the point I’ve been trying to make in this discussion. The debate is not over *whether *we should feed the hungry, cloth the naked, give shelter to the homeless, or care for the sick but over *how *we can best do it. There is no one opposed to helping, the disagreements are over how to reconcile competing objectives. So - no - this is not a moral issue; it is entirely prudential. The bishops’ suggestions for specific solutions are not moral choices but practical ones based on their perceptions of what will work best for all involved. That I disagree with their perceptions on the best immigration solutions is no more an ethical dispute than disagreeing with them over which is the better team between the Yankees and the Red Sox.

Ender
And I remain curious. As I asked in my earlier post, could you please provide us with specifics on legal reforms, proposals, and measures you hold as the best solutions to this issue, bearing in mind the guiding principles of love and mercy that the proposals should be formulated in conformity with, as instructed by our Bishops? Thank you.
 
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