Bishops' immigration expert calls new policy a step in the right direction

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This was some ways back, but:
Originally Posted by JReducation
What happens here is that some solutions do transgress the moral order.
…For example,*** when a government, any country, tells a parent ***that he or she is being deported and has to choose either to take their children who are citizens or leave them behind, this constitutes a moral disorder. Children many nver be separated from their parents unless they are in danger.
You have that completely backwards. It is not a government or a country telling a parent that, it is ***the parent ***making that choice by knowingly, deliberately and voluntarily breaking our immigration laws then irresponsibly having a family here, knowing what the consequences could be if he/she was caught.

I would sincerely like to know if Pope Benedict or JPII, or if any American Bishop ever pointed that out, ever told illegal immigrants to take accountability for their own actions and the results thereof?

-Chris
 
This was some ways back, but:

You have that completely backwards. It is not a government or a country telling a parent that, it is ***the parent ***making that choice by knowingly, deliberately and voluntarily breaking our immigration laws then irresponsibly having a family here, knowing what the consequences could be if he/she was caught.

I would sincerely like to know if Pope Benedict or JPII, or if any American Bishop ever pointed that out, ever told illegal immigrants to take accountability for their own actions and the results thereof?

-Chris
Your view doesn’t mention any consequences on the child/children. Do we also deport those that do have a legal status, according to our laws, because of the ‘sins of the father/mother’?

As far as I know, illegal immigrant accountability has not been specifically addressed with a remedy of a ‘mass deportation’. It seems the majority of message from the Church on the subject is one of compassion towards the situation; you know, forgive and be forgiven, love and be loved.

I can only say that from what I’ve read from men of the Church, we’ve should be working with other countries so that immigration is not the only solution, and that a reform is needed to remove the illegal status imposed on many who cannot afford, monetarily, knowledge of, or time, that the normal channels require.
 
Your view doesn’t mention any consequences on the child/children. Do we also deport those that do have a legal status, according to our laws, because of the ‘sins of the father/mother’?

As far as I know, illegal immigrant accountability has not been specifically addressed with a remedy of a ‘mass deportation’. It seems the majority of message from the Church on the subject is one of compassion towards the situation; you know, forgive and be forgiven, love and be loved.

I can only say that from what I’ve read from men of the Church, we’ve should be working with other countries so that immigration is not the only solution, and that a reform is needed to remove the illegal status imposed on many who cannot afford, monetarily, knowledge of, or time, that the normal channels require.
There really isn’t a whole lot we can do to reform other countries.

What makes you think illegals don’t have the money to go through “normal” channels? Many pay “coyotes”, then pay the sellers of phony ID. Oftentimes they also pay (usually Hispanic) “work finders” and “crew bosses”. It takes money to be an illegal most of the time.
 
There really isn’t a whole lot we can do to reform other countries.

What makes you think illegals don’t have the money to go through “normal” channels? Many pay “coyotes”, then pay the sellers of phony ID. Oftentimes they also pay (usually Hispanic) “work finders” and “crew bosses”. It takes money to be an illegal most of the time.
How many of those, you mention, are taken advantage of by ‘work finders’ and ‘crew bosses’, who maybe working together to take advantage. Also, I tried to convey the other concerns, having knowledge of how the US immigration system works, or maybe be in an urgent situation that causes them to overlook the time that it may take.

I notice you didn’t respond to the situation it could place children in, that may have a legal status according to US laws.

The Popes and bishops statements appear to be statements of compassion and concern for families potentially being ‘split up’. Even those that speak on the subject of the legality of immigration status have not openly endorsed the laws to support a mass deportation, but rather speak on the reform
 
How many of those, you mention, are taken advantage of by ‘work finders’ and ‘crew bosses’, who maybe working together to take advantage. Also, I tried to convey the other concerns, having knowledge of how the US immigration system works, or maybe be in an urgent situation that causes them to overlook the time that it may take.

I notice you didn’t respond to the situation it could place children in, that may have a legal status according to US laws.

The Popes and bishops statements appear to be statements of compassion and concern for families potentially being ‘split up’. Even those that speak on the subject of the legality of immigration status have not openly endorsed the laws to support a mass deportation, but rather speak on the reform
“Mass deportation” is something nobody has proposed, but which those who support illegal immigration like to pose for dramatic effect, like a bogeyman with which to scare children who won’t go to bed when they’re told to do it.

Many, if not most, illegal immigrants “self-deport” all the time, and for various reasons. Some illegals have been deported, however, in trickles here and there.

If families are “split up” it is totally the parents’ choice to do it. If the parents are deported to, say, Mexico, they are entirely free to take their child with them. Nobody forces them to “split up” the family.

And what happens then? Well, if the child was born in the U.S., the child almost certainly has dual citizenship; in the U.S. as well as in the parents’ home country. In the case of Mexico, the child is definitely a citizen of both.

To what, then, is one entitled if one is a U.S. citizen? Well, as a child, not very much except the right to live in the U.S. under the guardianship of someone or other. When the child becomes 16, he has the right to work in the U.S. At 18, he’s entitled to vote. At all stages, he may or may not have the right to receive (through someone else) welfare benefits. What he does not have is the right to confer legal residence in the U.S. on his parents. No American citizen has any greater right than that.

In Mexico, he has the same rights, essentially, according to the Mexican system.

What has the child lost if his parents return to Mexico? Well, he has lost the present ability to be better off financially than his peers in Mexico, but only relatively speaking and in a fairly narrow way. That’s it. Nothing more. In Mexico, his parents will earn about 1/3 of what they would have in the U.S. Their cost of living will be about 1/3 as well. Their employment prospects in Mexico are better than those of American citizens living in the U.S.

The really big advantage of working in the U.S. as a Mexican national is the ability to earn the higher wage but spend it in the lower cost country.

Now, I could understand the impulse to relieve poverty if the home country is Haiti, where people really are living in miserable conditions. Even Eastern Europe, perhaps, where average income is lower than Mexico’s. But Mexico is in the top 1/3 of nations worldwide when it comes to earnings per capita. If the same privilege that some urge is extended to residents of all nations at Mexico’s income level or below, that would be most of the world’s population, most definitely including China and India.

Unless this country is prepared to take on most of the world’s population to give them the same “arbitrage advantage”, which it certainly can’t, the whole argument fails except in the most extreme and limited situations such as that of Haiti. Perhaps churchmen eager to relieve poverty would do better to encourage Americans to sponsor Haitian immigrants than to argue for the unearned, unsponsored right to legal residence of people who, in their own countries, are better off than most of the world.

Barack Obama’s Kenyan father took him off to Kenya as a child, then to Indonesia. In that circumstance, Barack Obama was in exactly the same position as the American born child of an illegal alien who is deported. He was with his parent in lands not of his birth, and could not, himself, confer legal U.S. residence status on his father. What is difficult to understand is why, exactly, people seem to think the children of illegal aliens should have greater rights than Obama had while living with his father or, for that matter, the rights any other American citizen has.
 
The new laws in Alabama are a beginning of those in support of ‘mass deportation’. It is supported in some fashion by many on these forums.

Today’s Mass readings made me think of the immigration ‘debate’, as they take place on these forums.
Exo 22:21
(DRB) Thou shalt not molest a stranger, nor afflict him: for yourselves also were strangers in the land of Egypt.
 
The new laws in Alabama are a beginning of those in support of ‘mass deportation’. It is supported in some fashion by many on these forums.

Today’s Mass readings made me think of the immigration ‘debate’, as they take place on these forums.
I’m sorry, but that is incredibly subjective.
 
Subjective? I thought it applied, especially in a country built and established by immigrants.
 
Subjective? I thought it applied, especially in a country built and established by immigrants.
What is subjective is how we should resolve the immigration problems, not whether we should address or ignore them. We have an obligation to would-be immigrants. We have an obligation to our own nation. Reasonable people may reasonably agree on where to draw the line between those sometimes competing rights. Drawing that line is subjective.

Ender
 
IMO we should strengthen our borders, but welcome those who are already in the country (illegally) and find ways to make those people become legal citizens.
 
IMO we should strengthen our borders, but welcome those who are already in the country (illegally) and find ways to make those people become legal citizens.
You are certainly welcome to your opinion but the point that needs to be recognized is that your position is neither more nor less in line with what the Church teaches than the opposite opinion held by others. Determining which option is better is a prudential guess that each of us is free to make for himself.

Ender
 
The Church does not teach an opposing view of what is written in scriptures; it defines what is written. To me, deciding on how to handle this issue is very close to rationalizing what is taught, and written in scriptures, in an attempt to fit those teaching to a ‘personal’ view that is based on the secular.

One poster has said that we can ‘not welcome’ immigrants while neither oppressing or mistreating. How can we ‘not welcome’ people while loving them as we want to be loved?

What is written in Exodus was instruction for the Jews, who did not open up the ‘Church’ to everyone. Christ opened up the ‘Church’ for everyone. There was no separation in the kingdom. The separation being discussed is a separation of governments on this earth. While we are in areas of control of certain governments, we are of the kingdom that is eternal and above all governments of this earth. We do not hold to everything a government says is right, or wrong. We hold to His commands.
 
You are certainly welcome to your opinion but the point that needs to be recognized is that your position is neither more nor less in line with what the Church teaches than the opposite opinion held by others.
What Ender says here needs to be remembered by everyone. I will not go so far as to agree that all opinions are in line with Church teaching, but I do not think that is the point. The point is that there can be a lot of variance on this subject as still be just in line with Church teaching. Immigration, legal and illegal, has no easy answer.

I, too, thought of our duty to the stranger this Sunday. The principle that underlies Exodus 22:21, as taught by the Church must be a starting point for any Catholic opinion on immigration. I will stand with Swiss Guy and Prodigal Son that charity demands much of us in welcoming those new to this country. Our bishops have not always been of the same mind, but there is an underlying consistency of our call to charity for the illegal immigrant.

IrishSFV asked, “Why?” A simple answer is sufficient. Charity. This is no reflection on anyone else who would disagree with my understanding of my duty as a Catholic. Likewise, I have no obligation to defend an opinion in concert with Church teaching and my own call to charity. The option of supporting in charity illegal immigrants should be totally understandable even to Catholic that do not agree.
 
What Ender says here needs to be remembered by everyone. I will not go so far as to agree that all opinions are in line with Church teaching, but I do not think that is the point. The point is that there can be a lot of variance on this subject as still be just in line with Church teaching. Immigration, legal and illegal, has no easy answer.

I, too, thought of our duty to the stranger this Sunday. The principle that underlies Exodus 22:21, as taught by the Church must be a starting point for any Catholic opinion on immigration. I will stand with Swiss Guy and Prodigal Son that charity demands much of us in welcoming those new to this country. Our bishops have not always been of the same mind, but there is an underlying consistency of our call to charity for the illegal immigrant.

IrishSFV asked, “Why?” A simple answer is sufficient. Charity. This is no reflection on anyone else who would disagree with my understanding of my duty as a Catholic. Likewise, I have no obligation to defend an opinion in concert with Church teaching and my own call to charity. The option of supporting in charity illegal immigrants should be totally understandable even to Catholic that do not agree.
👍

I just try to have my beliefs line up with the Bishops/USCCB and general Church teaching, which as a result has given me some more (:gasp:) liberal views on many issues. 🙂
 
I just try to have my beliefs line up with the Bishops/USCCB and general Church teaching, which as a result has given me some more (:gasp:) liberal views on many issues. 🙂
If your positions accord with the opinions expressed by the USCCB then it is unsurprising that they have a liberal flavor. It is also be true that they would line up with general Church teaching as, of course, would those of conservatives, which is rather the point of the discussion. The Church speaks generally, not particularly, and neither side can properly claim their proposals are more in line with Church teaching.

Ender
 
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Regular Member Join Date: December 13, 2010
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Re: Bishops’ immigration expert calls new policy a step in the right direction
Quote:
Originally Posted by** Prodigal Son1

**The new laws in Alabama are a beginning of those in support of ‘mass deportation’. It is supported in some fashion by many on these forums.

Today’s Mass readings made me think of the immigration ‘debate’, as they take place on these forums.

I’m sorry, but that is incredibly subjective.

I’m still learning!

Mass deportation is logistically and economically impracticle. All we can do is make it so difficult to live in the US illegally that illegal aliens will voluntarily deport themselves.

-Chris
 
George Stegmeir;8273534:
Just because there was resistance to immigration in the past based on racial/ethnic/faith reasons does NOT mean that resistance to ILLEGAL Immigration today is based on the same reasons . Throughout most of our history , immigrants to the US did not have access to Medicaid , WIC , Food Stamps , guaranteed emergency room health care and other govt. run social welfare programs . The Affordable Health Care Act has had some of it’s regulations written already , do you know that if an illegal alien presents himself at a govt. run clinic or any hospital( and not just for emergency care ) , he/she CANNOT be asked their immigration/citizenship status ? In practice , do you know what this means ?
ANY behavior the government endorses you get MORE of . What you accept you teach !

Opposition to Illegal Immigration today is overwhelmingly an economic based opposition .

Before our govt. social welfare programs existed , immigrants had no choice bit to support themselves or rely on fraternal , national or church based social welfare programs , not tax dollars . How does your position conform to the principle of subsidiarity ?

The policies you endorse encourage illegal immigration , how is that just ?

And I had 12-15 Legal Immigrants live in my home as a teenager ( and another 12-15 lived in my grandmother’s home ) after the 1968 uprising in the former Czechoslovakia ( no , they weren’t all there at the same time ) . BUT , these were Legal Immigrants who at the very least came here with a High School diploma or a college degree or technical skills . They were legal and employable .

Finally , tell me what laws I can break with your endorsement ?
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