Bishop's Murder Should Not Hurt Islam Dialogue: Pope

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Aydan,

I don’t enjoy arguing for fun, but I believe it is important that we look for the truth.

Searching for the truth does not prevent us from praying for others, and trying to live with them in peace. It’s not either/or. It’s both/and.

“Today, we are all the Church of Anatolia, the martyred Body of the Lord, suffering, but risen and glorious,” said Archbishop Franschini at the funeral of Bishop Padovese.

He asked for prayers for the Church in Turkey, and also for teachers to help in their schools.
 
Cyprus (Reuters) - Pope Benedict on Friday said the brutal killing of a leading Catholic bishop in Turkey should not be allowed to hurt dialogue with Islam or stain the image of Turkey and its people.

More…
I wouldnt trust the Muslims,The Pope gave in to them,instead of keeping to his word and continuing to speak out against them.We kept the Turkish Ottomans out of Europe,now we may let The Turks into European Union and let Muslims swamp Europe,which may be to our pearl.Give the Muslims an inch and they will want a mile,thats whats happening in UK at present
 
Not exactly,i would rather a good decent Muslim living next to me,than a bigoted Orangeman,as long as a person is decent living,suits me fine, i dont care what they are,the points i make are against extreme Muslims ,who hope to sow their laws in our country ,and there are far to many extremists, but in Scotland,there are Muslims from different countries,so depending on what country they come from,there could be a problem when trying to sell your house if certain Muslims,moved into my neigbourhood.
But keep Turkey out of EU,this country is not stable enough regards religious freedom to Christians,many Turks would come to Scotland,and other EU countries,so possiibly an extreme Muslim element among them,these are my personal opinions ,and i certainly dont thrust them on anyone else
 
The Pope gave in to them,instead of keeping to his word
I was not aware of this, and would like to know more. Can you give a little more information on when the pope gave his word, and when we betrayed his word to us?
 
The Latin Archbishop of Izmir, Ruggero Franceschini, who has known Murat Altun [the man who killed Archibishop Luigi Padovese] for a very long time, said:

"The very modalities of the murder aim to manipulate public opinion. After having killed the bishop, the young Murat Altun shouted "I killed the great Satan. Allah Akbar. " But this is really strange. Murat had never before said those violent sentences. I knew him for at least 10 years. I was the one who took him on to work for the Church. He had never expressed himself in this way. He was not a practicing Muslim. He was a young man who had a Christian culture, without being Christian. Neither he nor his father were our enemy. In my opinion, were a being used like a tool in the hands of others.
The use of Islamic ritual serves to divert attention: it is like suggesting that the track is religious and not political. Moreover, by pushing the religious track, that of a conflict between Islam and Christianity, public opinion can be inflamed in an area where we are weak and believed we have no strength. What’s more, Prime Minister Erdogan’s strongest supporters are not to be found among radical Islam but in the moderates And I fear that now he no longer has even their support.

The murderer has also “confessed” sexual motives, saying that Mgr. Padovese paid him for “services”. But this is a track that only aims to confuse. And I do not believe even the usual hastily and pious lie that Murat was mentally ill and addicted. He was neither the one nor the other. Days before he tried to pass himself off as crazy, but doctors have told him not to show up any more because he is sane. I suppose he had good lawyers as advisers to prepare and ensure that these alibis, if convicted, means he could get away with just a sentence of a few years."
 
I was not aware of this, and would like to know more. Can you give a little more information on when the pope gave his word, and when we betrayed his word to us?
Firstly who are you,? reading between the lines of your thread,you may be someone,hostile to the Catholic Church.?
So i will make myself quite clear,i dont oppose The Holy Father in any way,and there were misinterpretation by Muslims,regarding his comments about Islam,that have now been clarified and accepted by Muslims.Tha Pope was not declaring any article of faith or morals,so not binding on Catholics,(simililarily Vatican against West invasion of Iraq,was not binding)
You misinterpreted my thread,and i should have clarified and composed my thread more accurately,but my opinions that i quoted are merely my own personal democratic opinions, although i should have clarified and composed ,interpreted them in a more accurate way, so i wont comment any more on them
 
Firstly who are you,? reading between the lines of your thread,you may be someone,hostile to the Catholic Church.?
I’m simply hostile to the pope being unfairly disparaged. If the pope went back on his word, well fine, sometimes leaders have to do so - in that case it would be a fair comment or criticism to point it out. But I wasn’t aware of him doing that.
 
I’m simply hostile to the pope being unfairly disparaged. If the pope went back on his word, well fine, sometimes leaders have to do so - in that case it would be a fair comment or criticism to point it out. But I wasn’t aware of him doing that.
No problem mate.
What i really mean ,and its my personal oopinion,is that the Western Leaders ,and all Christian Churches and their leaders ,The Vatican and Pope included,are over cautious on speaking out against extreme Islam,for obvious reasons,its a question should they? or should they not? incase of more 9-11s, myself personally,im afraid of an Islamic takeover in Euope,i have no doubts its our most serious threat today.
Never forget ,it was the Nazi extremists,who took over,and the Communists nearly achieved it in Scotland the early 20th century,so it could possibly be achieved by The Muslims.

Cheers
 
Why are we so reticent to acknowledge that we are engaged in a struggle against Islam? This seems to be pretty clear. The killer, being the Bishop’s driver, was a trusted person. If this man couldn’t be trusted who can be?
atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/06/italian-bishop-beheaded-by-muslim-in-islamic-ritual.html
Who is we and who is Islam? I’m not engaged in a struggle against people who profess Islam as their faith. I do not wish them ill at all. In fact, I wish them every blessing from God. On the other hand, many people, including those who profess Islam, are involved in a struggle against a radical and minority form of Islamic belief. Whether the person who murdered the Bishop in Turkey was actually an Islamic militant or insane or simply committed a crime of opportunity remains to be seen. Meanwhile, I pray for the soul of the Bishop, his murderer, and for all those who sincerely seek the light of God.
 
yes, it would be nice if all religions could live in peace, but i think that will not be in my time.
No, it probably won’t be in your time. But then again, it hasn’t happened in anyone’s time. Perhaps the best we can do in the present time is to seek, as individuals, to live peacefully with those who profess a faith different from our own. That may be possible in your time.
 
While it is clear that we are in a struggle against the evils of the world, it never serves to count as evil things that can also be explained by stupidity or mental defect.
 
If anyone were to take the time to research Islam one might find it to be a religion of intolerance and hate. Islam means “submission”. Now this seems nice if taken at face value but if you understood what this means you would drop to your knees and pray to God you never have to confront this “religion”. Perhaps many Muslims don’t quite know what their religion professes just like many Catholic’s don’t really understand their religion. Studying Islam can open the eyes of those who are Muslim and those who are not. There are not different degrees of Islam any more than there are different degrees of Catholicism. Islam is not like Protestantism. If I had a Muslim “friend” we would be involved in deep discussion about both our religions. As far as the Pope is concerned and his dialogue with the leaders of Islam … good luck. I would hope and pray our Holy Father has done his research and knows what he is truly up against. Kitman and taqiyya (concealment and mental reservation) on the part of Islam, as well as Shari’a law, are well worth looking into.
I do not say any of this to offend any one who OPPOSES the domination of Islam over any other religion. I say this to encourage self education. Never blindly trust what you are told. Always question and look at both sides.
May God guide you and our Holy Father down the road to Truth.👍
 
Why don’t we just ignore it and say it’s okay…and go our merry way…Why worry about some old bishop who doesn’t matter, anyway…? HUH…!
 
Why don’t we just ignore it and say it’s okay…and go our merry way…Why worry about some old bishop who doesn’t matter, anyway…? HUH…!
I have a better idea. Why don’t we live out the Gospel message of our Lord, Jesus Christ, and forgive those who persecute us. Let us remember the witness of faith shown by our brother Bishop and allow his sacrifice to strengthen our own faith in the Lord’s promise that God’s justice will be served. I think that would be better than blaming an entire nation of innocent Turks for the crime of one crazed individual or slandering their faith because this individual claims to be acting in the name of Islam. I certainly think the “old bishop” matters, but hopefully not as an excuse to perpetuate hatred of those who believe differently from us.
 
The murder of Bishop Padovese brings home the point that the road to Islamic-Christian understanding is far from realized despite long years at attempts at dialogues. The Church is not even close to the goal. She has lost scores of priests and religious just in the last two decades. Too much blood has been shed …

I have been struck by the words of Mgr Guiseppe Bernardini (then Archbishop of Izmir, Turkey), in his letter to the Synod of European Bishops in October 1999. He wrote that “the Muslims have a clear program and re-conquest.” He called on the pope (Pope JP II at that time) to convene a special Vatican meeting to find a common strategy towards Muslims living in Christian countries, as an intervention to the problem of Europe.

The Monsignor proposed to the Holy Father to “organize a Synod or Symposium of Bishops and operators in the pastoral ministry for immigrants, with particular reference to the Islamic ones, widening the scope to the Reformed and Orthodox Churches.”

He said, “The symposium could be useful to deepen in a collegial way the problem of the Islamic people in Christian countries, and thus find a common strategy to face it and resolve it in a Christian and objective way. We must agree on the principles, even if their applications will vary depending on the places and the persons. Nothing is worse than disagreement on principles!”

As I understand, the Monsignor wanted to reach an agreement on principles, defining the terms and concepts of “dialogue”, “rights of man”, “justice”, and “reciprocity”, as understood and accepted by all.

In his letter, he listed three cases that he had knowledge of:
  1. During an official meeting on Islamic-Christian dialogue, an authoritative Muslim person, speaking to the Christians participating, at one point said very calmly and assuredly: “Thanks to your democratic laws we will invade you; thanks to our religious laws we will dominate you.”
This is to be believed because the “dominion” has already begun with the “petrol-dollars,” used not to create work in the poor North African or Middle Eastern countries, but to build mosques and cultural centers in Christian countries with Islamic immigration, including Rome, the center of Christianity. How can we ignore in all of this a clear program of expansion and re-conquest?
  1. During another Islamic-Christian meeting, always organized by Christians, a Christian participant publicly asked the Muslims present why they did not organize at least once a meeting of this kind. The Muslim authority present answered the following words: “Why should we? You have nothing to teach us and we have nothing to learn.”
A dialogue among deaf persons? It is a fact that terms such as “dialogue,” “justice,” “reciprocity,” or concepts such as “rights of man,” “democracy,” have a completely different meaning for the Muslim than for us. But I believe this to be recognized and admitted by all, by now.
  1. In a Catholic monastery in Jerusalem there was and perhaps still is a Muslim Arab servant. An honest and gentle person, he was respected greatly by the religious who in turn were respected by him. One day, he sadly told them: “Our chiefs have met and have decided that all the ‘infidels’ must be killed, but do not fear because I will kill you without making you suffer.”
We are all aware that we must distinguish between the fanatic and violent minority from the tranquil and honest majority, but this, at an order given in the name of Allah or the Qur’an, will always march compact and without hesitations. Anyway, history teaches us that the secure minorities always manage to impose themselves over the renouncing and silent majority.

It would be naive to underestimate or, worse yet, smile on the three cases I have referred to; I feel that their dramatic teaching must be reflected upon …

Thanks to the Internet, I was able to dig up the contents of Mgr Bernardini’s letter. See here:

Note the third case in his list. Remember this is eleven years ago. The circumstance is not unlike last month’s beheading of Mgr Padovese by his Muslim driver.

The tragedy is that the beheading of the "old bishop” was not just to eliminate a soldier of Christ. The grisly act symbolically beheaded the Church in Turkey. Turkey which was a Christian land before, and now with just .13% left as Christians out of its 73 milliion population.

Brothers and sisters in Christ, we need to pray hard (get those rosaries out!) and include the Church in Turkey, our Pope Benedict and Holy Mother Church in our Sunday Mass intentions. Our Church is under siege on so many fronts.
 
InsearchofGrace,

Very interesting. Thank you. I read the letter. Wow.
Too bad people didn’t listen to him 10 years ago. Now France has no-go areas for non-Muslims.

It says, “In a blunt statement that attracted some attention in Europe,1 Giuseppe Germano Bernardini, a 72-year-old Italian who is archbishop of Izmir, Turkey, wrote the Synod of European Bishops on October 13, 1999, that Muslims have a “clear program of expansion and re-conquest” of Europe. He then called on the pope to convene a special Vatican meeting to find a common strategy toward Muslims living in Christian countries. This statement raised eyebrows because it so starkly contradicts the official church position.—The Editors”

What is the “official church position”? I wonder if it has changed or is changing. I think the Instrumentum laboris for the upcoming synod on Christians in the Middle East recognizes the problem created by Muslim-majority rule over Christians.

Howeve, nobody, including the Church, seems to want to deal with the elephant in Europe’s living room.

As to the anecdote about the Muslim saying “you have nothing to teach us,” I’m afraid that is a big part of the problem. I’ve lived in Muslim countries, including countries where there were no Bibles or Christian writings allowed even in university libraries, and certainly no “comparative religion” courses allowed. The people are not allowed to learn anything about Christianity. I do not understand why in the West we have people saying that “we” need to learn about and understand Islam. It is the other way around. The Muslims need to learn more about Christianity and Western civilisation because now they know very little other than political propaganda.
 
GraceSofia,

In reading related material, it seems that the Church position, as gleaned by the Editors of MEF, was one of toleration and appeasement to protect the Christian minorities in Muslim countries.

Pope Benedict has moved towards engagement in dialogue with Muslims, post his Regensburg address in October 2006 and the Common Word initiative by Muslim leaders, leading to the Catholic-Islamic Dialogue at the Vatican in November 2008 and continued talks.

In what has transpired, the Pope, to his credit, seemed not to let the discourse just be about what Christians and Muslims have in common (like belief in one God and accountability of each person on the Day of Judgment). In laying the groundwork for the dialogue, he voiced through representatives the need to discuss human dignity and rights, reason (to act against reason is to act against God), mutual respect and reciprocity.

Of course, it is not easy. The Muslim leaders would prefer no more than a theological dialogue, which would be meaningless without a discussion of human rights, freedom of religion, etc. And if/when the issue of human rights is admitted, Muslims couch it along the Islamic declaration of human rights, or “human rights as long as it conforms to law” (which is sharia law!).

Hence, the road to understanding is long and bumpy. And you are correct; it seems that we are the ones who really wish to understand Islam. Muslims merely pay lip service in their expression of wanting to understand us. All they see is that Christians have not paid enough yet for the Crusades, not appreciating that the violence has been one sided for the centuries after – way too long and much suffering and death on this side already.

I do not know anything about the Instrumentum Laboris you mentioned. So there is an upcoming synod on Christians in the Middle East?

Btw, I like your handle, GraceSofia. Reminds me of Hagia Sophia, its beautiful yet painful history.

Peace and blessings.
 
I do not know anything about the Instrumentum Laboris you mentioned. So there is an upcoming synod on Christians in the Middle East?
Yes, the synod is scheduled to take place from 10 to 24 October 2010:** “The Catholic Church in the Middle East: Communion and Witness.** ‘Now the company of those who believed were of one heart and soul’ (Acts 4: 32)”.

The Instrumentum laboris was distributed in Cyprus. Bishop Padovese, who was involved in ecumenical work and in the dialogue with Islam, was murdered just before he was due to leave for Cyprus.

Here is a brief summary: Fr. Samir: Christians together, the small flock and hope in the Middle East

And here is the document. It makes interesting reading.
va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20100606_instrumentum-mo_en.pdf

PREFACE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . iii

INTRODUCTION . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
A. The Goal of the Synod . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
B. A Reflection Guided by Holy Scripture . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3

I. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN THE MIDDLE EAST . . . . . . . . 7

A. The Situation of Christians in the Middle East . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
  1. An Historical Sketch: Unity in Diversity . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
  2. Apostolicity and the Missionary Vocation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
  3. The Role of Christians in Society . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
B. The Challenges Facing Christians . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12
  1. Political Conflicts in the Region . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12
  2. Freedom of Religion and Conscience . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13
  3. Christians and the Evolution of Contemporary Islam . . . . . 15
  4. Emigration . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15
  5. The Immigration of Christians to the Middle East
    from the World Over . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17
C. The Response of Christians in Daily Life . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17

II. ECCLESIAL COMMUNION . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21

A. The Communion in the Catholic Church and Among the Different Churches . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21

B. The Communion among the Bishops, Clergy and Faithful . . 22

III. CHRISTIAN WITNESS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25

A. Witnessing in the Church: Catechesis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25
  1. A Catechesis for Our Times . . . . . . . . 25
  2. Catechetical Methods . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26
B. A Renewed Liturgy Faithful to Tradition . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 27

C. Ecumenism . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 29

D. Relations with Judaism . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 32
  1. Vatican II: The Theological Basis for Relations with Judaism . . . . . . . . . . . 32
  2. The Present-Day Magisterium of the Church . . . . . . . . . . . . 33
  3. The Desire and Difficulty of Dialogue with Judaism . . . . . . 34
E. Relations with Muslims . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 35

F. Witnessing in Society . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 38
  1. The Ambiguity of “Modernity” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 39
  2. Muslims and Christians Must Pursue a Common Path Together…39
G. The Specific and Unique Contribution of Christians . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40

CONCLUSION: WHAT DOES THE FUTURE HOLD FOR CHRISTIANS IN THE MIDDLE EAST? “Do not be afraid, O little flock!” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 43

A. What Lies Ahead for Middle East Christians? . . . . . . . . . . . . 43

B. Hope . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 43
 
GraceSofia,
Btw, I like your handle, GraceSofia. Reminds me of Hagia Sophia, its beautiful yet painful history.
Peace and blessings.
🙂 Thank you. As you may know, “sofia” means “wisdom” in Greek, so I suppose you could say that I am in search of grace and wisdom (although Grace is a part of my “real” name).
 
And you are correct; it seems that we are the ones who really wish to understand Islam. Muslims merely pay lip service in their expression of wanting to understand us. All they see is that Christians have not paid enough yet for the Crusades, not appreciating that the violence has been one sided for the centuries after – way too long and much suffering and death on this side already.
Just a side note here, since this could be a whole nuther thread: after reading history on the Crusades, I’m amazed that Muslims have been allowed to hijack the narrative, and that Western schoolchildren are fed the bogus storyline. I just read a fascinating book on the history of the Templars. I was struck by the treachery of Muslims, who time and time again, promised safe passage out of beseiged castles and then massacred the inhabitants. The film, The Kingdom of Heaven, was real distortion.
 
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