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EmperorNapoleon
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Yes it does. The Church cant claim that it is one, holy, and apostolic Church and also claim that the Holy See has no authority over the Bishops which can, essentially, do what ever they want.
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Usbek_de_Perse
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canadianguy1143
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No, the link I want that Manualman quoted is about Public school teachers/employees. Thank you anyway.
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EmperorNapoleon
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It’s not served because thats not whats happening. In most cases it’s either too late to charge the priest or the priest is dead. The Bishops disgraced? Maybe, but they’re still Bishops and many of them are completely unrepentant. They’re not sorry about what they did to the victims. If they were it wouldn’t take a civil suit to get them to utter what could loosely be called an apology. They’re just sorry they got caught.
Because its apparently the only thing that forces the Church to address the issue and make changes to the way it handles these priests and treats it’s victims. A homeless shelter or a school might close but the Church will be the better for it.
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Usbek_de_Perse
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Manualman,
I really appreciate your posting. It is sick that good Catholics must see their church debilitated by these scandals.
But using a legal fiction (lie?) to get the Vatican out of the soup is scandalous. It brings much greater scandal on the church than allowing pro-choic politicians to receive holy communion.
I am frankly heartsick. I have looked forward toward discussions that might lead me to the Anglican Use ordinariate of the RCC. But I have to have confidence in the institution. And an overt “emancipated view of the facts” does not inspire confidence. Isn’t there something about this in the 10 Commandments? Isn’t this the kind of sin one confesses to a priest?
I really appreciate your posting. It is sick that good Catholics must see their church debilitated by these scandals.
But using a legal fiction (lie?) to get the Vatican out of the soup is scandalous. It brings much greater scandal on the church than allowing pro-choic politicians to receive holy communion.
I am frankly heartsick. I have looked forward toward discussions that might lead me to the Anglican Use ordinariate of the RCC. But I have to have confidence in the institution. And an overt “emancipated view of the facts” does not inspire confidence. Isn’t there something about this in the 10 Commandments? Isn’t this the kind of sin one confesses to a priest?
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manualman
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Here is a classic case of what happened for years in the Church.
A priest is assigned to a parish. He is there for a few years when people start whispering. More than one parent notices odd behavior in his child and discovers that the priest is a molester. He notifies the bishop and the reports and considered credible. The priest is removed from the parish quietly and a silence deal is reached with the parents. The priest is moved to another diocese where he is employed by a new bishop in a new parish and begins to molest all over again.
Cut and dried, right? Apalling and catatrophic. Y’all believe the diocese and, indeed, the Vatican should be auctioned off to pay damages (apparently). Now, do some switching.
A teacher is assigned to a public school. He is there for a few years when people start whispering. More than one parent notices odd behavior in his child and discovers that the teacher is a molester. He notifies the district administration and the reports are considered credible. The teacher is removed from the school quietly and a silence deal is reached with the parents. The teacher is moved to another district where he is employed by a new administration in a new school and begins to molest all over again.
Same thing right? Same crime of abuse, coverup and enabling of further abuse. Here’s the REAL story:
“Jon White was employed by McLean County Unit School District No. 5 (MCUSD5) as an elementary school teacher from 2002 to 2005. After receiving several complaints from parents and students regarding White having engaged in inappropriate touching of female students and other sexually suggestive conduct and comments, MCUSD5 officials entered into a severance agreement with White in April 2005 that ended his employment with the district. The agreement included providing White with a positive letter of recommendation. In August 2005, Urbana School District (USD) hired White to teach elementary school. MCUSD5 completed USD’s verification of teaching experience form and returned it to USD, indicating White had completed three years of service as a teacher in MCUSD5. While teaching in USD from 2005 to 2007, White sexually abused several of his female students using methods similar to those he employed while teaching in MCUSD5.” (from www.nsba.org/MainMenu/…)
So when it is the catholic church, everything should be auctioned off and given to the victims. When it is YOUR taxpayer money, there is zero liability. Nice double standard guys.
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Usbek_de_Perse
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Bad analogy. The US Dept of Ed neither hires nor fires principals. The Vatican does hire and fire Bishops.
The education analogy is good. EN’s premise would be like saying that all elementary school principals are employees of the US Department of Education.
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manualman
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The Vatican’s stance seems odd because the general public doesn’t understand how the Church works. The pope appoints bishops, but they truly aren’t his employees. They are independent leaders of their local diocese. They are responsible for sheperding their flock, but are not subordinate to the pope the way an employee is. Nor do they OWN their diocese the way a franchise owner does. Business simply has no analogy and it is a peculiar American characteristic to expect it to!
Each bishop governs his diocese in union with the pope and the Vatican, but not as a branch office. For example, the Patriarch of Constantinople hasn’t been in union with the pope for about 1,000 years and is still a valid bishop with Holy Orders and intact apostolic succession! (The Anglicans would still be too if the valid process for confecting the sacrament of Holy Orders hadn’t been lost for over a generation, but that’s another topic!) Church is simply something different than business.
You don’t think John Paul II would have liked to fire a few bishops during his tenure?? But a pope doesn’t simply do that. Bishops have canonical rights and protections. Canon law is a serious a matter as civil law is. Each diocese is in many ways its own Church and has an enormous amount of autonomy. The fact that the media doesn’t portray it that way is partly due to sloppy habits on the part of bishops over the years and partly because they generally stink at their job when it comes to accurately reporting on catholic affairs.
Each bishop governs his diocese in union with the pope and the Vatican, but not as a branch office. For example, the Patriarch of Constantinople hasn’t been in union with the pope for about 1,000 years and is still a valid bishop with Holy Orders and intact apostolic succession! (The Anglicans would still be too if the valid process for confecting the sacrament of Holy Orders hadn’t been lost for over a generation, but that’s another topic!) Church is simply something different than business.
You don’t think John Paul II would have liked to fire a few bishops during his tenure?? But a pope doesn’t simply do that. Bishops have canonical rights and protections. Canon law is a serious a matter as civil law is. Each diocese is in many ways its own Church and has an enormous amount of autonomy. The fact that the media doesn’t portray it that way is partly due to sloppy habits on the part of bishops over the years and partly because they generally stink at their job when it comes to accurately reporting on catholic affairs.
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manualman
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The US federal system is not a perfect analogy, true. But then, nothing is a perfect analogy for the Church.
Name a bishop “fired” by the Vatican. I can’t. Accepting an appointment elsewhere hardly counts. Firing is, by definition, compulsory. The only way to do that is to conduct a trial under canon law. Essentially an impeachment (forgive my imperfect analogy).
Any bishop has the power to ordain another bishop. The bishops together in union with the pope have decided to place that authority in the hands of the pope. And it has NOT always been that way in theChurch. It became the consensus to resolve problems in the other methods that were tried earlier. That’s rather different than a CEO hiring a regional VP.
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gmarie21
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Here’s the report to the US Dept. of Education pertaining to sexual abuse: www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf
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Just_Lurking
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Did the first school district make the victims and their parents sign an agreement to keep the crime secret? – If not, the analogy fails miserably.
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ncjohn
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Ah, and yet when the heat got too intense for all the enabling that Cardinal Law did in Boston he was forced to resign.
But then, what was his punishment? To be made the archpriest of the Basilica of St. Mary Major, and titular Cardinal Priest of Santa Susanna, the American Catholic church in Rome. I bet he’s still smarting from that!!
Manualman, I don’t think many here are advocating bleeding the Vatican dry over this. What is being said is that it has turned out to be the only mechanism left for the victims to make their point. As I and several others have noted, the majority of victims would have preferred that the Church acknowledge what it did and that it was wrong to both have such a policy and continue to cover things up. Instead, to this day they continue to deny that such a policy existed and to hide behind legal technicalities rather than acknowledge their sins.
While I am mostly against trying such things for anything beyond compensatory damages, when an institution arogantly continues to stonewall rather than heal and continues to subject God’s wounded sheep to the consequences of their actions, if it takes punitive damages to get their attention I fully support that as the greater good.
One can’t claim to be the vicar of Christ on earth while abusing His children and then playing self-protection games to weasel out of the consequences.
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ncjohn
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Ah, and yet when the heat got too intense for all the enabling that Cardinal Law did in Boston he was forced to resign.
But then, what was his punishment? To be made the archpriest of the Basilica of St. Mary Major, and titular Cardinal Priest of Santa Susanna, the American Catholic church in Rome. I bet he’s still smarting from that!!
Manualman, I don’t think many here are advocating bleeding the Vatican dry over this. What is being said is that it has turned out to be the only mechanism left for the victims to make their point. As I and several others have noted, the majority of victims would have preferred that the Church acknowledge what it did and that it was wrong to both have such a policy and continue to cover things up. Instead, to this day they continue to deny that such a policy existed and to hide behind legal technicalities rather than acknowledge their sins.
While I am mostly against trying such things for anything beyond compensatory damages, when an institution arogantly continues to stonewall rather than heal and continues to subject God’s wounded sheep to the consequences of their actions, if it takes punitive damages to get their attention I fully support that as the greater good.
One can’t claim to be the vicar of Christ on earth while abusing His children and then playing self-protection games to weasel out of the consequences. Oh, and I don’t have a double standard; I don’t think teachers or principals should be exempt either.
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canadianguy1143
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Manualman, I would like to comment on your post.
I can understand that a business analogy isn’t a good way to understand how the Church is governed but there are some things I would like to correct you on. Bishops are in theory under the authority of the Pope as he can remove them (remember Gaillot in France in 92). The Pope’s authority is supreme and total in governing the Church. How that doesn’t make them under his authority (employees) I can’t answer. The Primacy of Peter and the Petrine mission of authority goes back to Scripture.
Now let me be clear, I am very concerned about this trial because the American Justice system can leave a lot to be desired and I hope you aren’t offended at this coming from a Canadian. Ours is a mess too but its not our court system that is at issue here.
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Corki
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If that was their goal, they failed miserably. O.J. never admited to the murders and it turned out to be all about the money.
There may indeed be victims of clergy abuse who really just want a sincere apology. But for every one of them, there are a half dozen lawyers wanting to bleed the Church for every dime. They aren’t interested in justice or healing. They don’t care how many other innocent children get hurt in the process. It’s all about the money.
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gmarie21
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Did you read the link I posted? Does that answer your question to Manualman?
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Just_Lurking
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Here is some speculation that Archbishop Favalora was fired: “Orthodoxy vindicated: the real reason Archbishop Favalora of Miami was made to resign” (see here). I doubt the general public would be directly informed of such personnel actions.
Here is Catholic dogma regarding the Pope from Vatican I:
Here is Catholic dogma regarding the Pope from Vatican I:
- Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world.
- So, then, if anyone says that the Roman Pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the Churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.
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manualman
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I’m unaware of how any bishop can be “forced” to resign. Unless you subscribe to the albino assassin theory, of course! 
No question that moral pressure can be brought to bear. But pressure is just pressure. President Bush was pressured to resign, but you might notice that he never did. You can say no to pressure.
I’m unaware of the Gaillot affair. Can you fill me in? Are you saying the pope simply removed him? No canonical trial where he had the opportunity to defend himself against charges? That would prove me wrong, can you point me in the right direction where I can learn more?
I do not mean to undermine the authority of the pope. It is just a different form of authority than we are used to thinking of. And the context of the later cited text is rather significant. I think it is a general statement, not one speaking of diocesan governance!
No question that moral pressure can be brought to bear. But pressure is just pressure. President Bush was pressured to resign, but you might notice that he never did. You can say no to pressure.I’m unaware of the Gaillot affair. Can you fill me in? Are you saying the pope simply removed him? No canonical trial where he had the opportunity to defend himself against charges? That would prove me wrong, can you point me in the right direction where I can learn more?
I do not mean to undermine the authority of the pope. It is just a different form of authority than we are used to thinking of. And the context of the later cited text is rather significant. I think it is a general statement, not one speaking of diocesan governance!
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Usbek_de_Perse
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A bishop who was “fired”: Jacques Gaillot, removed in 1995 from the diocese of Evreux in France. Please see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Gaillot
No trial under canon law was conducted.
As to the notion that any bishop has the power to ordain another bishop, that is technically true from a sacerdotal point of view. However, any bishop who does consecrate a bishop without the express sanction of the Vatican incurs an automatic excommunication by virtue of the act of ordination. Therefore, the making of bishops is strictly controlled by the relevant Vatican congregation.
Every bishop understands that the Vatican put him in place and the Vatican can move him, demote him, promote him, etc. For this reason, you see very little episcopal indiscipline. Apart from the above cited example, the only recent example I know of is the famous case of Emmanuel Milingo of Zambia, who married a bride chosen for him by Rev. Sun Myung Moon, and apparently has also ordained a number of bishops.
No trial under canon law was conducted.
As to the notion that any bishop has the power to ordain another bishop, that is technically true from a sacerdotal point of view. However, any bishop who does consecrate a bishop without the express sanction of the Vatican incurs an automatic excommunication by virtue of the act of ordination. Therefore, the making of bishops is strictly controlled by the relevant Vatican congregation.
Every bishop understands that the Vatican put him in place and the Vatican can move him, demote him, promote him, etc. For this reason, you see very little episcopal indiscipline. Apart from the above cited example, the only recent example I know of is the famous case of Emmanuel Milingo of Zambia, who married a bride chosen for him by Rev. Sun Myung Moon, and apparently has also ordained a number of bishops.
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Usbek_de_Perse
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Again, please see the article from Wikipedia. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Gaillot
I first became aware of him when, in the early days of the internet I discovered his partenia.org site. I had one or two e-mails from him (in French). He took pains to stress his continued fidelity to the RCC, and included a copy of a letter to him from JPII. Whatever you may think of him, he was a bishop who strayed beyond both normative Catholic moral teachings and, perhaps more importantly, into far leftist politics.
But, as you see from the Wikipedia article, Gaillot was not tried. He was removed.
I first became aware of him when, in the early days of the internet I discovered his partenia.org site. I had one or two e-mails from him (in French). He took pains to stress his continued fidelity to the RCC, and included a copy of a letter to him from JPII. Whatever you may think of him, he was a bishop who strayed beyond both normative Catholic moral teachings and, perhaps more importantly, into far leftist politics.
But, as you see from the Wikipedia article, Gaillot was not tried. He was removed.
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