Bishops remain focused on 'responsible restrictions' on gun ownership

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In the Moral Theology area, there was likewise a recent lengthy discussion on Gun Control as well citing the Church Fathers and the discussion seemed to give a good perspective on this topic. Just relaying that as a reference.
 
‘My’ statistics are not even statistics yet, they are so current. The most recent mass shootings are what caused these discussions, and aren’t cherry picked. While the incidents of the AR15 being used are not as numerous as other guns, the body counts are much higher when they are used.
In the most recent compiled national statistics, more people were killed by human fists and feet than by AR-15 rifles.

Also, you misrepresent the facts of the mass murders.

Sadly, at this point it seems clear to me that a reasoned argument isn’t what is desired, nor valued on this subject. Which is sad, as this forum has the answer that the rest of the country is looking for, yet we go around and around on this topic, never making progress.

Well, that does seem to be, historically, part of being Catholic. :o 🙂
 
It is an instance with a ‘good’ outcome; however, would all children have been as capable? Surely you’re not suggesting that one incident is cause for all children to have access to guns?

Now, if the children are capable, and well trained, the guns could be considered secured. No one is suggesting that a gun must be locked at all times. They should be secured when not in use. The spin is only to incite more to support a view, but is not what is a part of ‘reasonable’ controls. The same spin is being applied as, ‘how am I supposed to defend when my gun is locked up?’ When you’re home, or if you have a permit, the gun is in use. When you’re in a position the gun is not in your possession, or being used as home defense, it should be secured.
One incident? No, one incident copied here, not “one incident only and ever.” You have yet to do your work, I take it? If you insist on being given every example of a good moral outcome, then you expose yourself to unfair ridicule. Please indicate to me that you don’t truly believe that when one example is posted, this proves that there is one and only one example extant in all of word!

Yes, all children of a reasonable age should have access to guns, along with the necessary moral training, safety training (“The code of the Junior Rifleman” . . . anybody remember that?) and practice to become proficient. In the past, a boy was often given a 22 LR as a birthday present when he turned 12, and he could hunt unaccompanied, take his rifle (and kills) to school, and store his rifle in his locker.

The question being: “What has changed since then?”
 
All points responded to in previous posts. Please feel free to see points countered through any of these threads of a similar topic.
I saw them. You didn’t “prove your point”, you simply repeated them, even after they had been falsified.
 
One incident? No, one incident copied here, not “one incident only and ever.” You have yet to do your work, I take it? If you insist on being given every example of a good moral outcome, then you expose yourself to unfair ridicule. Please indicate to me that you don’t truly believe that when one example is posted, this proves that there is one and only one example extant in all of word!

Yes, all children of a reasonable age should have access to guns, along with the necessary moral training, safety training (“The code of the Junior Rifleman” . . . anybody remember that?) and practice to become proficient. In the past, a boy was often given a 22 LR as a birthday present when he turned 12, and he could hunt unaccompanied, take his rifle (and kills) to school, and store his rifle in his locker.

The question being: “What has changed since then?”
Instead of jumping to conclusions, provide where I said it was ‘one incident only and ever.’
 
Yet the Bishops do not have the authority to order this,
Where do you get this from. There were no “orders” in this statement. There was a call to reason and responsibility. They also gave no specific proposals. I think the bishops are well aware of their role and the limits thereof. I just hope lay Catholic understand their role as student, aka. disciple.
 
I saw them. You didn’t “prove your point”, you simply repeated them, even after they had been falsified.
Ok, I’m done. I have presented my opinions, with sources to support that opinion. Nothing was falsified, which is the same as lying. Nothing so far as changed my view, and I don’t see that happening from the repeated points being raised.
 
I think the bishops are well aware of their role and the limits thereof. I just hope lay Catholic understand their role as student, aka. disciple.
This is where we differ: I think a number of the bishops and pretty much the entire bureaucracy at the USCCB have assumed roles that are not in fact appropriate to their position and gun control is a perfect example of this. There is no moral calculus involved in determining what legislation will work and what won’t and, contrary to your assertion, on this issue we are not the students of the bishops as the Church has no position on what constitutes “reasonableness.” She also has no doctrine that opposes the right of an individual to carry a weapon to use in his defense.

Ender
 
I think people need to understand that the Bishops are entitled to voice concerns over aspects about guns. Since we know that guns can take lives and protect lives and human life and quality of life is something that is within their purview then they are permitted to speak about it. If the Bishops during the AHA had said that AHA was bad because of the HHS mandate then I doubt the pro gun enthusiasts would squak about it. However by the same token, what they say does fall under prudential judgment and one isn’t being hypocritical if they can legitimately disagree with what they propose.
 
There is no moral calculus involved in determining what legislation will work
No one said there was. Moral theology addresses the goals, the needs and can limit the methods.
and what won’t and, contrary to your assertion, on this issue we are not the students of the bishops as the Church has no position on what constitutes “reasonableness.”
:confused:

Do not say something is contrary to my assertion if I did not make the assertion and I will do the same. If you meant we are not students as regards to what steps are reasonable, I never said we were. If you mean it as an absolute that we have not obligation to learn from our bishops anything, then … 🤷

This is a Catholic site and most Catholics know better.

Can. 375 §1. Bishops, who by divine institution succeed to the place of the Apostles through the Holy Spirit who has been given to them, are constituted pastors in the Church,** so that they are teachers of doctrine**, priests of sacred worship, and ministers of governance.
 
I have a question…and maybe it should be it’s own thread…I dunno…But I read these things periodically about “gun control laws” and they all seem to focus predominantly on restricting sales of certain types of weapons and little else.
The problem with this is that it runs afoul of the constitution which clearly grants the right to keep and bear arms.

Why not - instead of constantly trying restrict the sale of weapons, simply require that those who purchase them demonstrate proficiency, safety, lack of criminal record etc.
Such would be entirely within the bounds of the second amendment guarantees since the right to keep and bear arms is tied to the need for a “Well regulated militia”.

The problem with that suggestion is that in the United States we are presumed innocent until proven guilty by due process of law.

If by law, the governement takes from citizen 1 a piece of property they are legally entitled to without first convicting them of a crime, the government has committed an immoral act and an act that is outside the laws restricting the government.

Secondly, there are laws restricting the purchase and ownership of machine guns already on the market. The proposed gun law would take off the market firearms that are not mechanically or functionally different than many other weapons. The proposed law would restrict weapons that are already difficult and expensive to acquire that are not functionally different than other less scary weapons.

I chose to use the word “scary” for a reason. The AR-15 type weapons and the AK type weapons that are purchased without special permits at a local gun store are just scary looking. They are not different in terms of the mechanical systems that cycle the weapon than any other semi-automatic rifle on the market.

The demonstration of proficiency would do nothing to prevent a crime from being committed because it would be the equivalent to taking a drivers test. People kill people and commit crimes with automobiles daily.

Furthermore licensing requirements, background checks, and other similar requirements would not prevent criminals from getting firearms. Criminals buy their weapons on the black market or they steal them. They are criminals and the laws don’t matter to them.

The phrase “well regulated militia” has a specific legal meaning. In all 50 states constitutions, the militia is defined as the collection of the body politic of men of legal age who are capable of carrying weapons in time of crisis. It is not the National Guard or a recognized and professional force. It is the last group of people to respond in the event of an invasion. Also, “well regulated” refers to the need that the militia be trained and drilled not controlled by the force of law.

The reason Americans need to have AR and AK type weapons is because we are free citizens and the government is a creature of our design and creation and we need to be able to control it should it become tyrannical. I know there are those of you who will be reading this and say I’m crazy or I’m saying there is a dooms day scenario on the horizon. But that’s also what they said just before the Nazi’s confiscated the guns of the Jews in 1938. They also started with background checks and “reasonable regulations.” The Chinese dictator Mao did the same thing and so did Joseph Stalin. More recently, the Mexican government banned all firearms in their country and they have the highest rate of violence in the world.

We have guns in the hope that we never need them and can enjoy them for sporting purposes but its better to have it and never need it than to need it and wish you had it.

By the way, go ahead and put me in that small percentage of people who disagree with the bishops on gun control too. I wish they realized if we didn’t have guns, religious persecutions would be coming much more quickly.
 
No one said there was. Moral theology addresses the goals, the needs and can limit the methods.
If there is no moral calculation involved then how do the bishops contribute to solving the problem? They have done two things with their foray into this area: first they implied that we need stricter gun controls and second they have left the impression that supporting stricter controls is the moral position and opposing it is immoral. The first point is doubtful but there is no doubt that the second point is wrong.
Do not say something is contrary to my assertion if I did not make the assertion and I will do the same. If you meant we are not students as regards to what steps are reasonable, I never said we were. If you mean it as an absolute that we have not obligation to learn from our bishops anything, then …
Here was your assertion (#812):* “I think the bishops are well aware of their role and the limits thereof. I just hope lay Catholic understand their role as student, aka. disciple.” *And here was my response (#814): *“on this issue we are not the students of the bishops.”

*If your position is that you weren’t asserting that we are students of the bishops on this issue but only implying it then I accept the distinction.

Ender
 
They have done two things with their foray into this area: first they implied that we need stricter gun controls and second they have left the impression…
"Implied. " “Left the impression” This is one reason we disagree. I base what I think on what was said in a group of people for who every word is weighed. I am still amazed there is so much backlash to a non-specific call to reason, safety and awareness.

Our love of guns runs counter to the culture of life the our Catholic faith attempts to honor. As a Catholic, the last thing I will ever do is assume, add, and spin statements from God’s shepherd in an attempt to find implications and impressions that are contrary to my politics.

So I will have to take the position of the Church that teaching morality is the role of the bishops. I will take the position of the bishops that something that results in mass murder is a moral issue. I might be more understanding to this idea that these men have no business saying anything if even once and a while they were no opposed in every statement that is a cross purposes with Republicans. If I were to use Occam’s Razor and seek the most likely reason, it seems to me politics trumps faith. At least most liberal dissenters just flat out embrace their dissent.
 
"Implied. " “Left the impression” This is one reason we disagree. I base what I think on what was said in a group of people for who every word is weighed. I am still amazed there is so much backlash to a non-specific call to reason, safety and awareness.
It should be pretty evident that no one is against being reasonable … or needs a bishop to tell him this. Since the bishops have not (by everyone’s admission) said anything specific how are we to respond to their words except by divining their intentions based on what they have implied?
Our love of guns runs counter to the culture of life the our Catholic faith attempts to honor.
This is precisely the kind of assertion I was referring to. There was nothing in the bishops statement that said this; you simply assume it to be true and claim it to be the Catholic position.
As a Catholic, the last thing I will ever do is assume, add, and spin statements from God’s shepherd in an attempt to find implications and impressions that are contrary to my politics.
Given that you have just spun their statement to justify your assertion this claim is a little hollow.
So I will have to take the position of the Church that teaching morality is the role of the bishops.
We’re already covered this. It’s about as controversial as saying water is wet … and just about as relevant to the debate.
I will take the position of the bishops that something that results in mass murder is a moral issue.
Ah, well just bit ago, in response to my statement that “There is no moral calculus involved in determining what legislation will work” you replied “No one said there was.” If there was “no moral calculus” two posts ago how can there be one now?
I might be more understanding to this idea that these men have no business saying anything if even once and a while they were no opposed in every statement that is a cross purposes with Republicans.
Please. Either you can rebut the arguments made or you can’t, but don’t stoop to this.
If I were to use Occam’s Razor and seek the most likely reason, it seems to me politics trumps faith.
This is exactly the mindset I referred to earlier when I said the bishops by their involvement had implied that the two camps were divided not by any disagreement over what legislation was advisable but rather between saints and sinners. The bishops need to recognize their contribution to the coarsening of the debate.

Ender
 
It should be pretty evident that no one is against being reasonable …
I do not find this to be in evidence at all. I see people reacting to what they perceive as a threat to their alleged rights, not using reason.
 
I do not find this to be in evidence at all. I see people reacting to what they perceive as a threat to their alleged rights, not using reason.
And how do you perceive people reacting to their “alleged” right to life, free speech, religion and privacy? Are those people reacting unreasonably because there are some who would dispense with those rights? Will the bishops be so gracious and accommodating when told the government mandates supersede their rights?
 
And how do you perceive people reacting to their “alleged” right to life, free speech, religion and privacy?
I said nothing about any of that. The right to bear arms is in the Second Amendment, not the First. In light of this error, I have not answer for you, or even the slightest idea what you are getting at.
 
I said nothing about any of that. The right to bear arms is in the Second Amendment, not the First. In light of this error, I have not answer for you, or even the slightest idea what you are getting at.
I suggest you should read your own posts as they might be perceived by a third party.
 
I suggest you should read your own posts as they might be perceived by a third party.
pnewton, one, perhaps the biggest problem with these on-line forum discussions is the inability for personal contact, vocal expression is critical and absent. Too often posts are misunderstood leading to problematic responses. You felt your posts had a specific meaning while I interpreted them and the thread title in a different light. No offense intended.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodigal Son1
Contact USCCB

Media Contact only (for the article)

Good luck. I used their “Contact” page a week ago about another topic, and have not received a reply. I hope it’s simply because of the Christmas season, and not the norm.
Good luck. I used their “Contact” page a week ago about another topic, and have not received a reply. I hope it’s simply because of the Christmas season, and not the norm.
Well, I STILL have not received a reply from the USCCB.
 
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