Black and LDS

[ibkc]

The doctrine was not racist.

The prophets being imperfect let the beliefs of that time, effect their personal opinions.

In other words, the “prophets” taught man-made racism as doctrine.

 

[ralphinal]

The doctrine was not racist. The prophets being imperfect let the beliefs of that time, effect their personal opinions. God tells men what he wants them to know, they can possibly assume more.

And it took over a century, a shift in race relations in the US, changing of laws and the constitution, and a change in the tax code before God corrected it? If it was an error introduced by men, then why did God not fix it.

The concept may not have been racist, but the defense of it was. Just read what the men said. They HATED blacks.

 

[zerinus]

I will concide that in regards to women and men. . . .

There is a lot more that you need to “concede”.

Between the 1950s and 1970, there were major changes in the status of the minority in America. IN the early 1970s, the IRS changed the rule to allow tax exempt status if a group was shown to practice discrimination based on color. Suddenly, there is a new revaltion showing that they were now worthy. What changed? Was it society accepting them? Was it the threat of lawsuits? Was it the Jazz moving to Utah from New Orleans?

Churches are exempt from taxation.

z,
I love you, man. I really do. Can you not understand why we see it?

The LDS Church is true. Joseph Smith was a prophet. The Book of Mormon is scripture, and a revelation from the Lord. I see that very clearly.

zerinus

 

[OnlyAmbrose]

The doctrine was not racist. The prophets being imperfect let the beliefs of that time, effect their personal opinions. God tells men what he wants them to know, they can possibly assume more.

Based on that logic, I could just start prophecying stuff of my own accord, and then when it doesn’t happen or starts making people I’ll just say I “assumed” it.

Do you have any evidence of the other prophets in the Bible getting this stuff wrong?

And once again, I refer to my previous post. Deuteronomy is pretty clear that if a prophet gets a prophecy wrong, he isn’t a prophet.

 

[majick275]

Churches are exempt from taxation.

unless they violate certain conditions. this is significant because the LDS church was in danger of losing its tax exempt status had it not stopped racial discrimination. a number of churches in the US have lost thier tax exempt status for a number of reasons.

The LDS Church is true. Joseph Smith was a prophet. The Book of Mormon is scripture, and a revelation from the Lord. I see that very clearly.

zerinus

no it isn’t. it is a scam.
no he was not. JS was a con artist who perpetrated this scam.
no it isn’t. it is a manmade book plagiarized from multiple sources and cobbled together by scammers.
No, you have been deceived. very easy to understand since you grew up LDS and have been inculcated with that mindset.

 

[zerinus]

unless they violate certain conditions. this is significant because the LDS church was in danger of losing its tax exempt status had it not stopped racial discrimination. a number of churches in the US have lost thier tax exempt status for a number of reasons.

That is absolute rubbish. A church cannot fall fowl of the law for its theological beliefs. If a church operated a business, and refused to employ blacks, it might break employment laws, and lose it tax exemption or incur other penalties (for its business only); but a church cannot break any law for not giving the priesthood to blacks (according to its theological beliefs); any more than it could do so by not giving the priesthood to women.

no it isn’t. it is a scam.
no he was not. JS was a con artist who perpetrated this scam.
no it isn’t. it is a manmade book plagiarized from multiple sources and cobbled together by scammers.
No, you have been deceived. very easy to understand since you grew up LDS and have been inculcated with that mindset.

I have the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Church is true.

zerinus

 

[scipio337]

That is absolute rubbish. A church cannot fall fowl of the law for its theological beliefs. If a church operated a business, and refused to employ blacks, it might break employment laws, and lose it tax exemption or incur other penalties (for its business only); but a church cannot break any law for not giving the priesthood to blacks (according to its theological beliefs); any more than it could do so by not giving the priesthood to women.

Rubbish? Don’t be daft. Churches lose their tax status for acting upon beliefs, contrary to law. Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with civil rights of the era??

On January 19, 1976, the Internal Revenue Service notified the University that its tax exemption had been revoked retroactively to December 1, 1970. The school appealed the IRS decision all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, arguing that the University met all other criteria for tax-exempt status and that the school’s racial discrimination was based on sincerely held religious beliefs, that “God intended segregation of the races and that the Scriptures forbid interracial marriage.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Jones_University#Racial

I’m sure you have heard of * Bob Jones University v. United States*

Coincidence? Much like Catholic Charities and the gay adoption issue, the LDS “gave up the ghost”, through another timely “revelation”.

zerinus:

I have the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Church is true.

zerinus

I have the testimony of the Holy Spirit it is false, along with scientific data that the BoM isn’t a history at all, and that the Book of Abraham is actually a pagan Egyptian funerary rite.

 

[majick275]

That is absolute rubbish. A church cannot fall fowl of the law for its theological beliefs. If a church operated a business, and refused to employ blacks, it might break employment laws, and lose it tax exemption or incur other penalties (for its business only); but a church cannot break any law for not giving the priesthood to blacks (according to its theological beliefs); any more than it could do so by not giving the priesthood to women.

I have the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Church is true.

zerinus

you just don’t understand US law. the problems stemmed form the fact the LDS church predicated a number things on holding priesthood. the policy affected BYU, boy scouts, and various forms of employment. churches HAVE been punished for racial discrimination in the US. see coly v. green 1971 and of course the bob jones case was probably the most defining moment in causing the OD of 1978. as a 501 c 3 organization the LDS church could not prohibit interracial marriage and since temple marriage required priesthood this would make at the very minimum a two tiered marital system. see also runyon v. mcrary on this. the US constitutioj prohibits granting benefits to an organization jsut for being a “church”. tax exempt status is granted to churches as “charitable organizations”.

You obviously haven’t encountered the holy ghost or you wouldn’t be getting deceived by the false prophet joseph smith.

 

[NewSeeker]

I have the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Church is true.

Did you see the Holy Ghost? Did he appear to you and tell you it was true? Did the Holy Ghost enter the room you were in and did you observe him causing the positive feelings you experienced?

How do you **know **it was the Holy Ghost and not something, or someone, else that produced your witness? Lot’s of people experience a witness of the Holy Ghost, a witness that contradicts yours. How do you know yours is valid and theirs’ is not; and vice versa?

NS

 

[zerinus]

you just don’t understand US law. the problems stemmed form the fact the LDS church predicated a number things on holding priesthood. the policy affected BYU, boy scouts, and various forms of employment. churches HAVE been punished for racial discrimination in the US. see coly v. green 1971 and of course the bob jones case was probably the most defining moment in causing the OD of 1978. as a 501 c 3 organization the LDS church could not prohibit interracial marriage and since temple marriage required priesthood this would make at the very minimum a two tiered marital system. see also runyon v. mcrary on this. the US constitutioj prohibits granting benefits to an organization jsut for being a “church”. tax exempt status is granted to churches as “charitable organizations”.

You obviously haven’t encountered the holy ghost or you wouldn’t be getting deceived by the false prophet joseph smith.

More rubbish. There were black students at BYU before the ban on the priesthood was lifted, and there were no discrimination or segregation practiced against them.

zerinus

 

[scipio337]

More rubbish. There were black students at BYU before the ban on the priesthood was lifted, and there were no discrimination or segregation practiced against them.

zerinus

Did you read about any of the cases he listed?

I’m guessing no.

It’s called case history and precedent, chief.

Study up. Don’t forget to look at the preceding cases.

Bob Jones University v United States

 

[majick275]

More rubbish. There were black students at BYU before the ban on the priesthood was lifted, and there were no discrimination or segregation practiced against them.

zerinus

obviously you weren’t there nor have you bothered to read about. there certainly WAS discrimination practiced against them. they could not function in the student wards in the same way as the white students, they could not marry in the temple and they definitely weren’t supposed to marry whites. you ought to read what Harold B. Lee had to say on the subject, he didn’t even want them attending.

 

[zerinus]

obviously you weren’t there nor have you bothered to read about. there certainly WAS discrimination practiced against them. they could not function in the student wards in the same way as the white students, they could not marry in the temple and they definitely weren’t supposed to marry whites. you ought to read what Harold B. Lee had to say on the subject, he didn’t even want them attending.

More rubbish again. I was there. I was a student at BYU before the ban was lifted. There were black students there. I shared my residence with one for a time; and I was acquainted with others. He was a post graduate student (if I remember he was from outside the US). He was not a Mormon. I discussed the Church with him occasionally. Although he thought the LDS Church was racist (because of the ban on the priesthood), he acknowledged that there was no discrimination against him at BYU, and even admitted that everyone had been very kind and considerate towards him.

zerinus

 

[ralphinal]

Here I see some issue with the assertions that we are making. It is very possible that a majority of Mormons that lived in the last half of the 20th century were not racist at all. There is no way to say that this doctrine created a spirit of racism that was different than the population as a whole. It may be that there was a groundswell of support for dropping the practice as society had changed by the 1970s.

The question that I have is not so much concerned with individual Mormons. It does not fit the God that I know to say that one group of people was unworthy of anything based on skin color alone. That seems to be what the practice was.

I am even willing to set aside all of the racist statements that BY and all made, if I can see theologically that blacks are not equal to whites.

 

[majick275]

More rubbish again. I was there. I was a student at BYU before the ban was lifted. There were black students there. I shared my residence with one for a time; and I was acquainted with others. He was a post graduate student (if I remember he was from outside the US). He was not a Mormon. I discussed the Church with him occasionally. Although he thought the LDS Church was racist (because of the ban on the priesthood), he acknowledged that there was no discrimination against him at BYU, and even admitted that everyone had been very kind and considerate towards him.

zerinus

had he been a member he would have had a different status than white students there. you even admit he thought the LDS church was racist. as a non-member he was already being discriminated against. was he an athlete? that was probably the only reason he was recruited

i also have a hard time believing that you were BYU student before 1978 when it’s obvious you are a young brit.

 

[zerinus]

had he been a member he would have had a different status than white students there. you even admit he thought the LDS church was racist. as a non-member he was already being discriminated against. was he an athlete? that was probably the only reason he was recruited

i also have a hard time believing that you were BYU student before 1978 when it’s obvious you are a young brit.

You are talking so much rubbish that it is not worth my while to continue to reply to you. But just for the record, I will say once again that I was there, he was a black student at BYU and not a member of the Church, I shared the residence with him in Provo for a time, he did not have a “different status” as a student from anyone else, he was not an athelete, he did not consider himself being discriminated against at BYU, he considered the Church to be rasist because of the ban on the priesthood (due to his misunderstanding LDS doctrine from my point of view), but he did not consider himself being discriminated against at BYU.

zerinus

 

[scipio337]

You are talking so much rubbish that it is not worth my while to continue to reply to you. But just for the record, I will say once again that I was there, he was a black student at BYU and not a member of the Church, I shared the residence with him in Provo for a time, he did not have a “different status” as a student from anyone else, he was not an athelete, he did not consider himself being discriminated against at BYU, he considered the Church to be rasist because of the ban on the priesthood (due to his misunderstanding LDS doctrine from my point of view), but he did not consider himself being discriminated against at BYU.

zerinus

He’s lucky he didn’t try dating any white women.

 

[majick275]

You are talking so much rubbish that it is not worth my while to continue to reply to you. But just for the record, I will say once again that I was there, he was a black student at BYU and not a member of the Church, I shared the residence with him in Provo for a time, he did not have a “different status” as a student from anyone else, he was not an athelete, he did not consider himself being discriminated against at BYU, he considered the Church to be rasist because of the ban on the priesthood (due to his misunderstanding LDS doctrine from my point of view), but he did not consider himself being discriminated against at BYU.

zerinus

well then one piece of anecdotal evidence by a questionable, biased source…there you go folks, BYU and the LDS church were never racist. just don’t listen to the UTEP team that boycotted them or Mormon leader harold b. lee’s attempts to keep blacks out of BYU. also ignore the NAACP lawsuit that forced the LDS chruch to change it’s scouting program…all rubbish…a common term in provo utah in the 70’s.

z you aren’t fooling anyone. you’re “born in the church”, display a complete lack of experience/knowledge of living in america, haven’t been to the temple…c’mon who you trying to kid? i’ve spent more time in the UK than you’ve spent in provo. i doubt you were even alive in 1978.

 

[scipio337]

Perhaps ole Joey Smith wasn’t familiar that there were numerous black Catholic Saints, well before he was born, like St. Augustine, St. Monica, one of the St. Benedicts, St. Moses the Black, St. Antonio Vieira…etc, not to mention THREE black Popes: Victor (189-203 A.D.), Gelasius (492-496 A.D.), and Melchiades or Miltiades (311-314 A.D.). All are saints.

To me it is surprising that someone who claimed to be the decendent of Ephriam (1/2 Egyptian, and therefore, ineligible for the priesthood by his own rule), would base “righteousness” in the eyes of G*d by the color of skin.

And it wasn’t just Joey. One can look as recently as Spencer W. Kimball for the effect of this racis weltanschauung:

I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today… For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos, five were darker but equally delightsome The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

And yes, BY did state it as “revelation”

… any man having one drop of the seed of [Cain] … in him cannot hold the priesthood and if no other Prophet ever spake it before I will say it now in the name of Jesus Christ I know it is true and others know it …

signaturebookslibrary.org/neither/neither3.htm#Chapter3

 

[majick275]

Perhaps ole Joey Smith wasn’t familiar that there were numerous black Catholic Saints, well before he was born, like St. Augustine, St. Monica, one of the St. Benedicts, St. Moses the Black, St. Antonio Vieira…etc, not to mention THREE black Popes: Victor (189-203 A.D.), Gelasius (492-496 A.D.), and Melchiades or Miltiades (311-314 A.D.). All are saints.

To me it is surprising that someone who claimed to be the decendent of Ephriam (1/2 Egyptian, and therefore, ineligible for the priesthood by his own rule), would base “righteousness” in the eyes of G*d by the color of skin.

And it wasn’t just Joey. One can look as recently as Spencer W. Kimball for the effect of this racis weltanschauung:

And yes, BY did state it as “revelation”

signaturebookslibrary.org/neither/neither3.htm#Chapter3

just to be accurate those saints and popes were africans but not necessarily black. many of the north africans were of roman and Carthaginian descent making them racially more “mediteranean” than anything. semitic, hamitic, greek, italian, spanish, gallic, etc.
i’m not sure which ones were actually “black”. i do know that no catholic doctrine has ever existed that designates skin color as having any significance to God nor has there ever been any racial limitations on the priesthood.