Blessed Trinity explained for Muslim Woman

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Salaam:signofcross:

The Three Persons

Father and Son

The heavenly Father has a Son; the Gospels tell of their relation. We must now look at it more closely.

A son is a distinct person from his father; there is no way in which a father can be his own son. But though they are distinct persons, they are like in nature—the son of a man is a man, of a lion a lion. In this solitary case, the Father’s nature is infinite; so the Son too must have infinite nature. But there cannot be two infinite natures—one would be limited by not being the other and by not having power over the other. Therefore, since the Son has infinite nature, it must be the same identical nature as the Father’s.

This truth, that Father and Son possess the one same nature, might remain wholly dark to us if St. John had not given us another term for their relation—the second person is the Word of the first. In the first eighteen verses of his Gospel we learn that God has uttered a Word, a Word who is with God (abiding therefore, not passing with the utterance), a Word who is God; by this Word all things were made.

So God utters a word—not framed by the mouth, of course, for God has no mouth. He is pure spirit. So it is a word in the mind of God, not sounding outwardly as our words sound, akin rather to a thought or an idea. What idea produced in God’s mind could possibly be God? Christian thinking saw early that it could be only the idea God has of himself.

The link between having a son and having an idea of oneself is that both are ways of producing likeness. Your son is like in nature to yourself; your idea of yourself bears some resemblance to you too—though it may be imperfect, for we seldom see ourselves very clearly; too many elements in us we see as we wish they were, too many we do not see at all.

Are we venturing too far if we feel that God does not have the idea for the sake of information about himself, but for the sake of companionship? However this may be, the idea that God has of himself cannot be imperfect. Whatever is in the Father must be in his idea of himself, and must be exactly the same as it is in himself. Otherwise God would have an inadequate idea of himself, which would be nonsense. Thus, because God is infinite, eternal, all-powerful, his idea of himself is infinite, eternal, all-powerful. Because God is God, his idea is God. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. And the Word was God.”
So far, the reader may feel that all this is still rather remote—full of significance, no doubt, to theologians, but not saying much to the rest of us. With the next step we take, that feeling must vanish. The Father knows and loves; so his idea knows and loves. In other words the idea is a person. Men have ideas, and any given idea is something. God’s idea of himself is not something only; it is Someone, for it can know and love.

The thinker and the idea are distinct, the one is not the other, Father and Son are two persons. But they are not separate. An idea can exist only in the mind of the thinker; it cannot, as it were, go off and start a separate life of its own. The idea is in the same identical nature; we could equally well say that the nature is in the idea, for there is nothing that the Father has which his Word, his Son, has not. “Whatsoever the Father has, that the Son has in like manner” (Jn16:15). Each possesses the divine nature, but each is wholly himself, conscious of himself as himself, of the other as other.

One immediate difficulty presents itself. We can hardly help thinking of sons as younger than their fathers—so felt the painters who gave the Father a long beard, the Son a short beard. Is the second person younger than the first? If not, how can he be his Son? But this is another of those points where we must not argue from the image (ourselves) to the original (God). Among men, fathers are always older than sons simply because a human being cannot start generating the moment he exists; he must wait till he develops to the point where he can generate. But God has not to wait for a certain amount of eternity to roll by before he is sufficiently developed. Eternity does not roll by; it is an abiding now; and God has all perfections in their fullness, not needing to develop. Merely by being God, he knows himself with infinite knowing power, and utters his total self-knowledge in the totally adequate idea of himself which is his co-eternal Son.
 
Athanasian Creed

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity is Trinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.

God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved. Amen.
 
Dear SimonArizona,

Gee, I love Arizona too. The breath taking Grand Canyon, everything. BTW, do you still have the song “I Love you Arizona… Your mountain, desert and streams…and so on” It is usually sung at the end of the broadcast of the TV station, such as KNIX.

OK, back to the topic. The problem for the muslim is when we use the terminology “Son” they are thinking that God the Father marry to a female entity and later such female entity gave birth to an entity whom we called Jesus. What an earthly and humanly thinking applied to God.
 
It’s fully in line with Church teaching, properly understood (hint: invincible ignorance is implied). In fact, this creed is one of the four authoritative creeds in the Catholic Church - not something that would be done if it were out of line with Church teachings.
 
Dear SimonArizona,

Gee, I love Arizona too. The breath taking Grand Canyon, everything. BTW, do you still have the song “I Love you Arizona… Your mountain, desert and streams…and so on” It is usually sung at the end of the broadcast of the TV station, such as KNIX.

OK, back to the topic. The problem for the muslim is when we use the terminology “Son” they are thinking that God the Father marry to a female entity and later such female entity gave birth to an entity whom we called Jesus. What an earthly and humanly thinking applied to God.
Hi, I haven’t heard that song, they play the national anthem at the end of broadcasting.
 
Conscience doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It must be formed in light of Church teaching.
 
The Catechism says “Those who follow the dictates of their God-given good conscience can too share in eternal life.”
 
Conscience doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It must be formed in light of Church teaching.
I say it is God-given in the womb; and it grows, is shaped and formed by Church teaching (God’s Revelation of Light)
 
Salaam/peace
Salaam:signofcross:

The Three Persons

Father and Son

The heavenly Father has a Son; the Gospels tell of their relation. We must now look at it more closely.
thanks for the thread . InshaAllah ( God Willing ) , I will read .
Father and Son are two persons. But they are not separate. .
when Jesus (p) died , u don’t believe Father also died. So , if they are not seperate , how one was alive & other died ?

Also pl explain when Jesus (p) died , he was 100 % God ? If not , it’s possible for any 100 % human being to live with 100% God ?
 
God is Love.

The Father is the Lover.

The Son the Beloved.

The Holy spirit the Love between Them.

🙂
 
Salaam/peace

thanks for the thread . InshaAllah ( God Willing ) , I will read .

when Jesus (p) died , u don’t believe Father also died. So , if they are seperate , how one was alive & other died ?
They are not separate. They are distinct. Read the whole post, it will answer many of your questions and raise many more:thumbsup:

Do you believe that when you die, you are still alive? So Jesus’ flesh died, but then He went to preach to the souls in prison while his body lay in the tomb.
 
Baptism of desire (and Baptism of blood) is extraordinary. The only ordinary means of entering into the sacrament of salvation is a valid Baptism using the Trinitarian formula. While there are some extraordinary means and God is not bound by His sacraments, I think it is presumptuous, to say the least, to rely on these non-ordinary means in lieu of the ordinary means. That means, don’t get lax on proclaiming Christ to the world just because they might slide by on a loophole.
 
Salaam/peace
Wa alaikum salaam
when Jesus (p) died , u don’t believe Father also died. So , if they are not seperate , how one was alive & other died ?
Because the Father and Son are two distinct Persons. Only the Second Person of the Trinity took on human form and therefore could experience physical death.

What do we mean by “person”? A person is a hypostasis that possesses reason. What is a hypostasis? That which contains the nature of something. There is only one Divine Nature but Three Persons that share the same Divine Nature.

How can we say there are Three Persons in God but God is still One? First by analogy, do two different faces on a coin mean there are two coins? No, one coin can contain two faces (i.e. heads and tails.) In terms of being, God is one, in terms of Personhood God is Three. Muslims believe there is One God in One Person, Christians believe there is One God in Three Persons.
Also pl explain when Jesus (p) died , he was 100 % God ?
Jesus is a Divine Person who possesses two natures unified: one human the other divine. The Divine nature can’t die, this is impossible, but human nature can experience death. What is death? Death is not oblivion, death is the separation of the soul from the body. Since Jesus had a Soul and a Body, He could experience death.

Hope this helps!

Wa salaam,
Tomasz
 
Salaam/peace

Father & son were always there at the same time ? Then how one is father , other is son ? Why no Prophet such as Moses (p) , Abraham (p) did not teach their followers about Trinity ?

I read few chapters of bible . I found that always father is giving order / instructions & son & holy Spirit are obeying Him . Looks like father is more powerful among these 3 ?

How do u explain the verse where Jesus (p) said : My father is greater than All ? How it excludes son & spirit ?

PS. I am not asking these to hurt anyone’s feelings . Those who don’t like my questions & want to say something bad , pl. pl. go to Islam & Muslim bashing thread , thanks 🙂
 
Salaam/peace

Father & son were always there at the same time ? Then how one is father , other is son ? Why no Prophet such as Moses (p) , Abraham (p) did not teach their followers about Trinity ?
Salaam ,

First question; Among men, fathers are always older than sons simply because a human being cannot start generating the moment he exists; he must wait till he develops to the point where he can generate. But God does not have to wait to develop a Son, He does not have to wait for a certain amount of eternity to roll by before he is sufficiently developed to have a Son. As long as God exists (which is forever, no beginning) then too His Son who is the Image of His Father He also exists forever with no beginning. For how can the Father possibly be without His own image at one time?

Second question. Moses and Abraham didn’t know about the Trinity yet because God has not revealed it yet. There are many things about God that we don’t yet know, but one day in heaven we will. Right? Although the Great Prophets did not know about the Trinity, we see God hinting at it in the old testament. For example in Genesis God says to Himself “Let* us* make man in *our *image”
I read few chapters of bible . I found that always father is giving order / instructions & son & holy Spirit are obeying Him . Looks like father is more powerful among these 3 ?
The Son, who is equal in power and Lordship to the Father because (the Son is the exact image of the Father,) so the Son cannot be less than the Father, but equal to the Father. The Son is distinct in that He is not the Father, And the Father is not the Son, they are two but equal. Because the Son is the exact, precise, image of His Father, He is equal to Him, lacking nothing. Jesus said “All that the Father has, the Son has also,” and Jesus said “noone knows the Father except for the Son, and noone knows the Son except for the Father.” Jesus also said “Glorify me Father with the Glory I had with you before the world was.” With all that said, to answer your question now, remember “Jesus emptied Himself and took upon the form of a servant.” -St Paul. So Jesus became obedient to the Father, and showed mankind exactly how we are to act before our Great God.
How do u explain the verse where Jesus (p) said : My father is greater than All ? How it excludes son & spirit ?
I think Jesus said “the Father is greater than** I**” The Father is greater than Jesus because Jesus emptied himself of His glory and humbled himself before the Father, and was made subject to the Father. Also Jesus said that “of those born among women, none is greater than John the Baptist.” So greater doesn’t mean higher in being, because all men are created equal. No one would say John the Baptist is a more powerful being (like an angel) than other men, For all men are created equal. his greatness means something else. So too, Jesus can be equal in nature to the Father when the Father is greater.
PS. I am not asking these to hurt anyone’s feelings . Those who don’t like my questions & want to say something bad , pl. pl. go to Islam & Muslim bashing thread , thanks 🙂
 
Salaam/peace
Wa alaikum salaam
Father & son were always there at the same time ? Then how one is father , other is son ?
Sunnis say the Quran is eternal and uncreated, but if this is true when did Allah “speak” the Quran? This question is similar to what you’re asking us and in fact Christian and Islamic philosophies have the same answer. God is pure Act, there is no potency in Him. In other words, He is not subject to time, He is beyond it. What we see as past, present, and future, occurs to God at the same time. So although the Son proceeds from the Father, this procession is eternal. There never was a time when the Son did not exist, He existed along with the Father and Holy Spirit before time was created.
Why no Prophet such as Moses (p) , Abraham (p) did not teach their followers about Trinity ?
First you have to understand that we don’t view revelation as static. Muslims seem to view their religion as something that was around since the beginning, and every succeeding prophet simply reaffirmed what was before (except for changing certain laws.) In Judeo Christianity, revelation is progressive, that is, God unfolds more truth as time goes on and this correlates to the state of mankind, it ultimately finishes with the Word Himself taking on Human flesh. It’s obvious that it would not be prudent to reveal to the Jews the reality of the Trinity when they had difficulty holding on to Monotheism. This does not mean components of this truth were not revealed, in fact, there are many indications that God is One in Being yet Three Persons.

Here is a site briefly outlining some passages: biblicalresources.info/pages/ot1/trinityot.html
I read few chapters of bible . I found that always father is giving order / instructions & son & holy Spirit are obeying Him . Looks like father is more powerful among these 3 ?
I’m glad you started to read the Bible, reading it helped me return to Christianity.

The Father is the Font of Divinity, from Him proceeds the Son and Holy Ghost. The Son took on the form of a low and humble servant, and so He is obedient to the Father but they are ultimately coequal since They are one in Essence.
How do u explain the verse where Jesus (p) said : My father is greater than All ? How it excludes son & spirit ?
The Father is “greater” because the Son proceeds from Him and because the Son took on the role of a servant. In this sense only can we say the Father is greater since the Three Persons, being one in essence, are co equal.

Hope this helps!

wa salaam,
Tomasz
 
Salaam/peace
…Sunnis say the Quran is eternal and uncreated, but if this is true when did Allah “speak” the Quran?..
Muslims salvation is not depending on this ans. So , let’s talk about Christians salvation .

Regarding both OT & NT ( Christians holy books ) , we see the warnings that God is one , God is jealous --don’t take other diety besides one God , God will take revenge if u take other diety etc etc.

If Trinity is a correct concept , then at least Muslims will be able to say God that we obeyed all those verses & never took any diety besides/ with God . So , if we dont deserve heaven , Jesus (p) don’t at least throw us in to the fire , pl pl pl.

Don’t u think it’s logical that because of not taking any diety besides God , at least Muslims deserve hanging between hell & heaven ? 🙂

But what if Jesus (p) is not God ? He told u he does not know when will be the last day , he told u he will deny those who called him lord etc. So , personally I think it’s very dangerous to worship Jesus (p) as God. I am told that many Christians dont’ worship him as God . Don’t u think it’s much safer to do so ? If really Trinity is a must for salvation , it’s really strange that no Prophet (p) taught about it.
 
Salaam/peace
… Father is greater since the Three Persons, being one in essence, are co equal.
if Father is greater , then at a same time how they can be co-equal ? Knowledge of the unseen belong to the father only …so , He is more knowledgable than the son & sprit .

I guess , it won’t be easy to understand the Trinity , otherwise it won’t be a mystery anymore 🙂
 
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