Blessed Trinity explained for Muslim Woman

[Muslim_Woman]

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Salaam/peace

I don’t think I ever wrote three gods. I am asking about 3 deities. Father is a deity , Son is a deity , holy Spirit is a deity . So , three deities make 1 God — I am asking why it’s wrong to say so ?

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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Salaam/peace

…You can ask people to pray for you.

but you are not asking to pray for you , you are **praying to them **. Muslims don’t pray to any deity but God Almighty . Thanks God who saved Muslims from that greatest sin.

 

[TomaszA]

It is impossible to explain the Trinity to a muslim, unless the muslim is willing to set aside any preconcieved notions they have about G_D and the Trinity from the Quran.

To be honest the Holy Trinity is beyond comprehension.

Indeed Jesus made some strange claims about his parentage.
Therein lies the Truth.

Either the Bible is a Lie or it is the Truth.

If one is to believe the Gospels one can only conclude that Jesus is G_D.

Thank you Algebra, I appreciate this honest admission.

 

[TomaszA]

Salaam/peace

Wa alaikum salaam Muslim woman,

but you are not asking to pray for you , you are **praying to them **. Muslims don’t pray to any deity but God Almighty . Thanks God who saved Muslims from that greatest sin.

The word “prayer” means to petition. We “pray” to Saints in the sense that we petition them to pray on our behalf. We don’t worship them, only God is worthy of worship.

Hope this clarifies the situation!

God bless,
Tomasz

 

[Silouan]

How do you explain the Qur’an being the Speech of Allah when it is recited by men and written on paper?

Muslim Woman is not an Islamic Theologian.

Sultan Al Ulama Al Izz Ibn Abd al Salam answers this question, “For the act of recitation (al qira a) is different from what is being read (al maqru): the act of recitation is of recent origin (created) in time while what is being recited is beginningless (uncreated). Similiarly, when we remember or mention God, our remebrance is of recent origin (created) while what is remembered is beginningless (uncreated).”

In others words:

The recitation of the Quran (human voice) and its written form (paper and ink) are indicators (or pointers) of that which is uncreated. The created things point to that which is uncreated. That which is created is not uncreated.

-Silouan

 

[Silouan]

I’m not saying the Qur’an is a deity, I only said Sunni Muslims attribute divine qualities to the Qur’an.

I’m not so sure Muslims believe Bible is also uncreated.

The obvious difference is that the Qur’an is a book, you can’t petition books for aid. You can ask people to pray for you.

Getting technical:

Islamically speaking, **Quran **has two definition. It can refer to the actual speech of God or it can refer to the Mushaf (hand written copy of the Quran). So when you say the Quran has been given divine qualities, which definition of Quran are you using.

The actual speech of God is uncreated.
The mushaf is created, the ink and the paper is created. Even the recitation of the Quran is created.

This is agreed upon among the Sunni Islamic scholars.

Your Brother in Christ,

Silouan

 

[Silouan]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif
Each person is a deity . So , is it ok to say Christians have 3 deities ? If it’s wrong to say so , pl. explain why ? I asked this several times , did not see any reply.

Explaining Trinity to a Muslim is one of the most difficult things.

God means that which is worshipped.

In Islam God has many attributes, Al Qadir (The Power), Al Hakim (The Wisdom). These Attributes of God are different manifestations of God’s qualities.

Christians believe that Jesus is the physical manifestation of God’s Attribute, Al Hakim, The Wisdom.

So just as you would not call God’s 99 Attributes, 99 dieties, Christians don’t call Trinity, 3 dieites.

That is the best way I can explain it.

It doesn’t fit Islamic Theology but Christians aren’t Muslims.

Does that make sense???

• Silouan

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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…
So just as you would not call God’s 99 Attributes, 99 dieties, Christians don’t call Trinity, 3 dieites.

when we say Rahman , Raheem or
Gaffar etc , we mean the same diety–God Almighty , not the different deity .

When Christians say son , they don’t mean father or holy spirit ; when they say father ,
then they don’t mean son or angel.

So , it’s not the same thing.

 

[TomaszA]

The recitation of the Quran (human voice) and its written form (paper and ink) are indicators (or pointers) of that which is uncreated. The created things point to that which is uncreated. That which is created is not uncreated.

Right, I’m making an analogy between the Qur’an and Jesus to answer Muslim Woman’s questions.

Are you an Islamic scholar btw?

 

[TomaszA]

when we say Rahman , Raheem or
Gaffar etc , we mean the same diety–God Almighty , not the different deity .

When we say, “Father,” “Son,” “Holy Spirit,” we are not referring to different deities either.

When Christians say son , they don’t mean father or holy spirit ; when they say father ,
then they don’t mean son or angel.

Right, the Father is not the Son the same way “the Creator” and “the Merciful One” are not the same words.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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Salaam/peace

When we say, “Father,” “Son,” “Holy Spirit,” we are **not **referring to different deities either.
…Right, the Father is not the Son

pl. explain ; if Father is not the Son , then how come when you refer to Father , you are not referring to a different deity than the son ?

 

[TomaszA]

pl. explain ; if Father is not the Son , then how come when you refer to Father , you are not referring to a different deity than the son ?

Consider this analogy: I’m describing to you the face of a coin which depicts a man, then I describe the face of a coin that depicts a child. You might think I’m describing two separate coins but then I tell you I’m referring to the same coin. So just as you can have one coin and two faces you can believe God is one in Being (coin) but three in Personhood (faces).

The difference between your beliefs and ours is that you believe God is one in Being and one in Personhood. We believe God is one in Being and three in Personhood.

Hope this helps,

God bless,
Tomasz

 

[Silouan]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

when we say Rahman , Raheem or
Gaffar etc , we mean the same diety–God Almighty , not the different deity .

When Christians say son , they don’t mean father or holy spirit ; when they say father ,
then they don’t mean son or angel.

So , it’s not the same thing.

Have you studied Sunni Islamic Theology???

Yes you are correct in saying it is not the same thing, but it is the closest thing in Islamic theology that relates to the issue of Trinity, not exactly but close.

In Sunni Islamic theology, The Attributes of Allah are not Him (Allah) nor are they other than Him. (if you need a reference I can provide it for you.)

In Christian Theology, The Son and the Holy Spirit are not Father, nor are they other than Him (the Father).

• Silouan

 

[Silouan]

Right, I’m making an analogy between the Qur’an and Jesus to answer Muslim Woman’s questions.

Are you an Islamic scholar btw?

No I am not an Islamic scholar, but I spent many years studing Islamic theology.

It is a bad analogy, by the way. It is close but not really.

Because Muslims don’t believe God became book, but Christians believe God became man.

• Silouan

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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Have you studied Sunni Islamic Theology???

ummm…as an ordinary Muslim , I read Quran , tafseer , Hadith , fatwas , listen to Q & A sessions on Islam etc .

…not exactly but close.

how ?

(if you need a reference I can provide it for you.)

yes , pl.

In Christian Theology, The Son and the Holy Spirit are not Father, nor are they other than Him (the Father).

if they are not other than Him , how come son & holy Spirit don’t know when will be the last day ?

 

[Silouan]

yes , pl.

Ibn Abi Al Izz states, “It (the attributes of Allah), can refer to what is not the essence itself, or it can refer to what can be separated from the essense. This is why the scholars of Ahl as Sunnah neither say without qualification that the attributes of Allah are other than Allah, nor do they say without qualification that they are not other than Allah.” (Sharh At Tahawi)

Mufti Abdur Rahman Ibn Yusuf states, “Thus, the correct belief according to the Ahl al Sunna is that His attributes are neither His essense itself nor are they other than His essense.” (Al Fiqh Al Akbar Explained)

if they are not other than Him , how come son & holy Spirit don’t know when will be the last day ?

St Irenaeus states that the Son and the Holy Spirit are but the Hands of the Father. I say, Just as the hands do not know everything the individual knows, the hands is not the inidividual nor is the hand other than the individual and at the same time, the hands act in accordance with the will of the individual.

• Silouan

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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… the Son and the Holy Spirit are but the Hands of the Father.

If someone cuts my hand , I will feel the pain. When Jesus (p) was suffering , Father also suffered ?

 

[TomaszA]

Peace Silouan,

It is a bad analogy, by the way. It is close but not really.

Because Muslims don’t believe God became book, but Christians believe God became man.

I think it’s a reasonable and useful analogy for the following reason:

Christians say Jesus is the Word of God, Muslims say the Quran is the Word of God.

Christians explicitly say the Word is God, while Muslims don’t go this far, they do give Divine attributes to the Word, such as saying it is uncreated and eternal.

The Qur’an says Jesus is the Word of Allah, but Muslims interpret this to mean that Allah said “Be!” and He came into existence. If we could shift their understanding from “Be!” to the literal Word of Allah, the same Word that is the Quran, then they can attribute to Jesus what they attribute to the Quran, namely that He is Eternal and Uncreated.

If they can get that far, the logical conclusion is that Jesus is in fact Divine.

God bless,
Tomasz

 

[inJESUS]

Good answers Tomas and Silouan. If i recall well, Silouan is a convert to Christianity from Islam and am glad he is the only one from Islamic background who has no problem discussing the Islamic belief in the uncreatedness of the Quran .

Muslim Woman, your last question’s answer lies in Jesus’ second nature, His humanity.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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Salaam/peace

… He is Eternal and Uncreated.

If they can get that far, the logical conclusion is that Jesus is in fact Divine.

if we ever go that far , then we will become Christians & no more
will be Muslims ( submitted to God only ).