Blessed Trinity explained for Muslim Woman

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Salaam/peace
inJESUS said:
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Muslim Woman, your last question’s answer lies in Jesus’ second nature, His humanity.
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I wanted to know about Father .
When Jesus (p) was suffering , Father also suffered ? He suffered the death pain ?
 
TomaszA said:
No, the Father did not suffer on the Cross.
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If my Soul suffers ,my Body and Spirit would suffer too…

therefore, The Father should have suffered…if you put the Soul,Body and Spirit into the Trinity equation
 
Nicolas said:
If my Soul suffers ,my Body and Spirit would suffer too…

therefore, The Father should have suffered…if you put the Soul,Body and Spirit into the Trinity equation
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Peace Nicolas,

This is not the case because God is one in three Persons, not one Person assuming three roles or modes. So when the Second Person of the Trinity took on flesh and suffered, only that Person was on the Cross.
 
Muslim_Woman said:
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Salaam/peace
I wanted to know about Father .
When Jesus (p) was suffering , Father also suffered ? He suffered the death pain ?
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Remember people here kept on bringing up the issue of the Quran being uncreated, and you kept on saying your salvation isn’t based on this particular belief.

Well, knowing the answer to the question you pose is of the same nature, belief in it or disbelief in the answer to the question would not render on a disbeliever among the Christian believers.

And to be honest, I don’t know, God did not explain it. So I don’t know.

I also wanted to mention, both Muslims and Christians believe that God is beyond comprehension. The Mind cannot grasp the reality of God (Allah). So when prophets, scholars, believers use analogies, such as the one that i used saying the Son and the Spirit are but hands of the Fathers. It is not to be taken so literal, they are used to illustrate a point. They are used to remove doubt for a believer trying to grasp difficult concepts of theology.

In Sunni Islam (Salafi/Hanbali), Ibn Taymiyyah while trying to explain Allah being with the believer, likened Allah to the Moon saying the Allah is with the believers as the moon is with the traveler. Ibn Taymiyyah did not intend to liken Allah to the moon, but if you read it literally that is exactly what he did. Ibn Taymiyyah was trying to explain how he understand Allah with you, in layman terms.

The analogies aren’t so absolute, they are explanations, they try to hint at the meaning of a concept, belief etc.

Religious beliefs aren’t necessarily logical, they are scriptural. Although scholar use logic to try and rationalize certain belief, ultimately belief is based on the scripture.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say.
  • Silouan
 
TomaszA said:
Peace Silouan,
I think it’s a reasonable and useful analogy for the following reason:

Christians say Jesus is the Word of God, Muslims say the Quran is the Word of God.

Christians explicitly say the Word is God, while Muslims don’t go this far, they do give Divine attributes to the Word, such as saying it is uncreated and eternal.
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Some people like to use this type of method in calling people to Christianity, it might work for some people, but it won’t work for all people. If you find it helpful and you find people benefiting from this method of calling to people to Christianity than go for it.

Because the concept is slightly reasonable and conceivable.

I personally wouldn’t use it because I wouldn’t have been convinced by it, But I am not everybody and everybody thinks differently. Some people convert to get married, some people convert because they met a really nice priest or believer, other people might convert because they were impressed with your explanation of the word of Allah explained as Jesus being the same thing the Christians believe.

If you think it is beneificial, use it, follow your heart.
  • Silouan
 
I personally do not use it to call Muslims to Christianity but to make them understand why the Trinity is not about 3 deities or partners to God as put in the Quran. If they understand it’s good, if they believe in it or not is another issue.

Regarding suffering, it’s like saying when Jesus ate food, did the Father eat as well? Jesus having taken a human body, He behaved as a human but the Father is not a human so although He could eat if He wants but it is the human nature of Jesus who needed food.

Using the analogy with the Quran, what is called the Quran is considered both the eternal speech and the created ink and papper called mushaf which can become rotten, can be torn apart, it does not mean Allah was affected or the eternal Speech was affected but rather the manifestation of His speech into a book which is subject to such things.
 
inJESUS said:
I personally do not use it to call Muslims to Christianity but to make them understand why the Trinity is not about 3 deities or partners to God as put in the Quran. If they understand it’s good, if they believe in it or not is another issue.

Regarding suffering, it’s like saying when Jesus ate food, did the Father eat as well? Jesus having taken a human body, He behaved as a human but the Father is not a human so although He could eat if He wants but it is the human nature of Jesus who needed food.

Using the analogy with the Quran, what is called the Quran is considered both the eternal speech and the created ink and papper called mushaf which can become rotten, can be torn apart, it does not mean Allah was affected or the eternal Speech was affected but rather the manifestation of His speech into a book which is subject to such things.
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Very Good. The Trinity is a matter of relationships. Father-Son-Holy Spirit. The central doctrineis the incarnation of Our Lord, which allowed men to see God face to face and enter into a relationship with him. Relationship of person to person is as superior to a man’s relationship with a book as a man is superior to his own written biography.
 
inJESUS said:
rather the manifestation of His speech into a book which is subject to such things.
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That is the problem I have with the analogy, muslims DO NOT believe that God’s Speech manifested into a book.

Yes the Quran CAN, refer to the Mushaf (the phyiscal book). But traditionally speaking, Quran refers to the Speech of God, while the Mushaf refers to the physical book.

Many teachers will frown upon you if you call the Mushaf, “Quran.”
Because the Quran refers to the speech of God, while the mushaf refers to the physical book.

Yes Muslim show respect to the mushaf, because it points to the Quran, like they make wud before reading it, they won’t place it on the ground and all these other ettiquettes related to the handling of the mushaf (aka Quran).

Theologically speaking according to the Muslims, there is a big difference between the Quran and Mushaf.

Quran is uncreated, and the mushaf is created.

Another note, the second largest Islamic sect, the Shia, believe the Quran is created, they believe the speech of God is created.

I hope that makes sense.
  • Silouan
 
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Salaam/peace
Silouan said:
Remember people here kept on bringing up the issue of the Quran being uncreated, and you kept on saying your salvation isn’t based on this particular belief.
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Allah did not put this condition ( to ans if Quran is created or uncreated ) to go to heaven.

In Bible ( OT ) , God warned that He is jealous & will take revenge if anyone takes deity besides Him. Hope Christians don’t think that the warning was for Jews only.
 
Muslim_Woman said:
In Bible ( OT ) , God warned that He is jealous & will take revenge if anyone takes deity besides Him. Hope Christians don’t think that the warning was for Jews only.

In John 8:58 Jesus says, "before Abraham was, I Am."

God called Himself,** I am that I am**, in the Old Testament. And He told Moses to them, I Am has sent you.

Jesus called Himself God.
  • Silouan
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After reading this thread, ive come to this concluion:
:banghead:

Its obvious, no matter how many ways you describe the trinity to a muslim, they refuse to see what it is and ask the same questions over and over.
 
Silouan said:
That is the problem I have with the analogy, muslims DO NOT

believe that God’s Speech manifested into a book.my poor choice of words. what i meant is exactly what you wrote next:

Yes the Quran CAN, refer to the Mushaf (the phyiscal book). But traditionally speaking, Quran refers to the Speech of God, while the Mushaf refers to the physical book. Quran or mushaf, at the end of the day refers to the same book yet if we go beyond the surface level, it is uncreated and created at the same time…that which is uncreated is the Quran as eternal speech of Allah, that which is created is the Quran as mushaf of papers and ink…in that sense, we can say the created has within it the uncreated…that is why i used the word manifestation, which doesn’t refer by any means to incarnation, but to the fact that the eternal is found in the created, since it is by the created that Muslims learn of the uncreated in essence.
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Salaam/ Peace

I forgot if I asked this question in this forum . Do you understand Hindu’s Trinity ? If no , why not ? If yes , do u think Hindu’s Trinity concept is logical ?
 
Muslim_Woman said:
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Salaam/ Peace

I forgot if I asked this question in this forum . Do you understand Hindu’s Trinity ? If no , why not ? If yes , do u think Hindu’s Trinity concept is logical ?
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Each God in the “Hindu trinity” has his consort. To Brahma is Saraswati, the Goddess of knowledge. For Vishnu is Lakshmi, the Goddess of love, beauty and delight. For Shiva is Kali (Parvati) , the Goddess of power, destruction and transformation. These are the three main forms of the Goddess, as Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are the three main forms of the God. The three Goddesses are often worshipped in their own right as well as along with their spouses.

It isn’t about logic but about revelation, and the Bible doesn’t reveal what seems to be a group of married deities ,
and the Islamic monothesim of a Wordless and Spiritless Allah (compared to the Biblical Trinity) might not make sense to many but you believe in it.
 
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Salaam/ Peace
dolphinlove said:
… :banghead:
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ouuch , don’t hurt yourself like this ; it’s better to cry , less painful http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/cry.gif

I asked question about Trinity & got this ans today.

Mary, Mother of the Trinity??

#145 …But as we said before, this is a mystery. No human can properly understand how an infinite being, God, can be 3 Persons, yet only 1 God… Much less how one of those Divine Persons could become a man, while remaining God and retaining that intimite and eternal unity with the Father and Holy Spirit.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=262766&page=10

See , It’s a mystery for Christians , too ? So , u must not be that upset if Muslims can’t understand it . BTW , can u understand Hindu’s Trinity ?
 
Is God a mistery to you Muslim Woman ? what does “nothing like him” means except that he is not like anything, in other words, you don’t know what He is but you know what He is not, and he is not like anything. Does the Quranic verse reveal the mystery for you?
 
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