Blind faith and search for the truth

[ricchetto]

Thanks for all your reply.
Let me say something.
Jesus was always very angry with the priest caste.
The reason was because the original message got distorted so they pretend to teach the real message from God.
The same thing happen with all religions.
Every religion pretend to carry the original message but what happen all the time is that the original message last as long as the spirituality last and that task is not an easy task.
What is spirituality?
Spirituality is the task to allow the divine seed to germinate so we can realize the divinity within.
Religion on the contrary is something external, but external there is nothing.
Externally there is the material-physical world and that want help much to know God.
The real church is within in our heart.
The first Christian knew this very well but slowly slowly spirituality turned into religion and too many teaching have been lost.

 

[rinnie]

I try to understand how the two can be compatible.
Some people here say that a Christian duty is to search for the truth and on the other hand religion is blind faith which means NO search is allow.
It just does not make any sense to me.
How can we search for the truth when we are confined inside a corral?

Who told you that. Just because there are times that something we know to be true, can’t be proved does not mean it does not exist.

Like just because we cannot see the Holy Spirit does not mean the HS is still alive today and teaching the Church.

 

[Contarini]

Thanks for all your reply.
Let me say something.
Jesus was always very angry with the priest caste.
The reason was because the original message got distorted so they pretend to teach the real message from God.
The same thing happen with all religions.
Every religion pretend to carry the original message but what happen all the time is that the original message last as long as the spirituality last and that task is not an easy task.
What is spirituality?
Spirituality is the task to allow the divine seed to germinate so we can realize the divinity within.
Religion on the contrary is something external, but external there is nothing.
Externally there is the material-physical world and that want help much to know God.
The real church is within in our heart.
The first Christian knew this very well but slowly slowly spirituality turned into religion and too many teaching have been lost.

It sounds as if you think Christianity was supposed to be Buddhism.

That doesn’t make sense. The world already had Buddhism.

Jesus came into the world to give the world something more than “spirituality.” He came into the world to give the world Himself in flesh and blood.

Edwin

 

[Della]

Thanks for all your reply.
Let me say something.
Jesus was always very angry with the priest caste.
The reason was because the original message got distorted so they pretend to teach the real message from God.
The same thing happen with all religions.

Wow! That’s a huge assumption. What proof do you have that the Catholic faith is not the same as the early Church? To save you the effort, I’ll tell you–none. The Catholic Church still teaches what it has always taught because it only teaches what Christ revealed to the Apostles and nothing more and nothing less.

Every religion pretend to carry the original message but what happen all the time is that the original message last as long as the spirituality last and that task is not an easy task.

Another unproven assumption, dear one. Catholic spirituality has not only lasted, it’s grown and grown! There is ample proof of this if you wish to look for it.

What is spirituality?
Spirituality is the task to allow the divine seed to germinate so we can realize the divinity within.

Is it? According to whose definition? Divinity within is not a given–it’s a gift of grace–of God’s grace. All people have this gift because Christ offered himself to the Father for our sins making it possible for his grace to be poured out on mankind. Without God’s grace, freely given by him, there is no “divinity within.”

Religion on the contrary is something external, but external there is nothing.

Yet another meaningless definition that floats in the air but truly means nothing. We aren’t merely spiritual beings, we are also physical beings. God created our bodies, minds, hearts, souls good things–all of which make up who we are. Without our souls we die and if our bodies aren’t in good condition we suffer. We are not disconnected spirits, we are persons of flesh and blood as well as spirits, minds and souls. We need the externals to confer grace upon our souls. That is the very definition of a sacrament, for sacraments do what they are intended to do–confer saving grace on our souls, healing mind and often bodies, as well.

Externally there is the material-physical world and that want help much to know God.

Just the opposite is true. The Psalmist urged us to “consider the heavens, the work of God’s hands” precisely so we would appreciate all that God created, the physical world as well as the inner world of our spirits and souls. The physical beauty of the Earth serves God because it shows his greatness and his love in that all he made is “very good.”

The real church is within in our heart.

But not only there. The Church is the body of Christ made up of all its members–us. We certainly ought to have the Church in our hearts, but it’s not limited to any one person’s heart or it would not do others any good at all. We are to reach out to each other in agape love, not hide the Church within our hearts as if it were mine alone.

The first Christian knew this very well but slowly slowly spirituality turned into religion and too many teaching have been lost.

Absolutely not true. No teachings have been lost. Many of them haven’t been practiced by a good many people, but that’s not the Church’s fault, it’s our fault. The Church has continually, through good times and bad, through all cultures and eras, taught us the truths Christ gave us. It’s up to us to put them into practice. Not just by sitting by ourselves and humming, but by helping others in all their needs, physical, emotional, educational, and spiritual.

 

[rinnie]

Thanks for all your reply.
Let me say something.
Jesus was always very angry with the priest caste.
The reason was because the original message got distorted so they pretend to teach the real message from God.
The same thing happen with all religions.
Every religion pretend to carry the original message but what happen all the time is that the original message last as long as the spirituality last and that task is not an easy task.
What is spirituality?
Spirituality is the task to allow the divine seed to germinate so we can realize the divinity within.
Religion on the contrary is something external, but external there is nothing.
Externally there is the material-physical world and that want help much to know God.
The real church is within in our heart.
The first Christian knew this very well but slowly slowly spirituality turned into religion and too many teaching have been lost.

I really don’t see where the original message ever got distorted. I can see where people used the original message to serve ones best interest.

But the truth never changes.

Its really no difference today, you see people opening a Church with the true word of God and try to interpret that word to their own benefit.

But there is no teaching in the O.T. that was not true, as same as the N.T.

But as long as God gave people free will, they can use it as they please.

To please God or themself. That really never changed either.

But the RCC has the fullness of the truth, always has always will. Nothing has been lost nor will ever be.

If anything is lost it is because people use free will to turn away from much truth. But it would be impossible for God to give us free will and have it any other way.

 

[ricchetto]

I really don’t see where the original message ever got distorted. I can see where people used the original message to serve ones best interest.

Eh, i remember 50 years ago when i was a kid and the priest was telling us that if we do not listen to him we will go to hell.
These days the things have changed and the attitude is also changed.
I am sure that after few more years the attitude will change even further and what was going on yesterday will end up in the dust bin of history.
There can not be a permanent punishment as there can not be a God that hate his own creation so it is clear that the original message got distorted.

But the truth never changes.

True, but how do you know that what you say is the truth?

Its really no difference today, you see people opening a Church with the true word of God and try to interpret that word to their own benefit.

Has always been like that that is why Jesus was very angry with the clergy of his time and i guess would be angry to see what his teaching have turned into.

But there is no teaching in the O.T. that was not true, as same as the N.T.

You mean that somebody really live up to the age of 900 years and the animal sacrifice is ok and Adam and Eve were the first humans and so on?
Just imagine how many Adam and Eve must be in the thousand of other planets in which there is life?

But as long as God gave people free will, they can use it as they please.

Something that i agree.

To please God or themself. That really never changed either.
But the RCC has the fullness of the truth, always has always will. Nothing has been lost nor will ever be.

RCC?

If anything is lost it is because people use free will to turn away from much truth. But it would be impossible for God to give us free will and have it any other way.

Nothing get lost.
What is coming from him goes back to him.
It may take longer then it should if people do the wrong thing but at the end the mistakes get sort out.

 

[rinnie]

Eh, i remember 50 years ago when i was a kid and the priest was telling us that if we do not listen to him we will go to hell.
These days the things have changed and the attitude is also changed.
I am sure that after few more years the attitude will change even further and what was going on yesterday will end up in the dust bin of history.
There can not be a permanent punishment as there can not be a God that hate his own creation so it is clear that the original message got distorted.

True, but how do you know that what you say is the truth?

Has always been like that that is why Jesus was very angry with the clergy of his time and i guess would be angry to see what his teaching have turned into.

You mean that somebody really live up to the age of 900 years and the animal sacrifice is ok and Adam and Eve were the first humans and so on?
Just imagine how many Adam and Eve must be in the thousand of other planets in which there is life?

Something that i agree.

RCC?

Nothing get lost.
What is coming from him goes back to him.
It may take longer then it should if people do the wrong thing but at the end the mistakes get sort out.

Well to start with the if the Priest did this he was not teaching the truth of the RCC. The RCC has never condemned anyone to hell. You are accusing the RCC for teaching something they never taught.

And sorry but the truth is there is a permanent punishment if you reject Christ you cannot enter heaven. The truth never changed. And just because people reject Christ and his truth where does that mean he hates you. Christ loves us all and wants us all to have eternal life in him, He died on the cross so we could all achieve it. How could that be hate? On the other hand how can he give you free will to choose him or reject him, but yet you keep that free will. If you reject him you made the choice not him.

I know I have truth because Jesus promised it to my Church on the day of pentecost.

Rather people twist his teaching to their benefit or not, how does it make the true teaching a lie. If its his teaching as you say, how can it be a lie?

Yes they did live longer in those days and there were much fewer, but God saw that living that long was no longer a blessing so made the age less. And Jesus became the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world and ended animal sacrafice. But does not make the previous untrue.

I don’t understand your last comment, You either reject the truth or you accept it.

RCC is the Roman Catholic Church that was started by Peter as commanded by Christ.

And I disagree Christ told us the truth is same today as yesterday it never changes. As long as the RCC is here that truth will not get lost in the bin as you state. IT hasn’t in the last 2000 years. Christ kept his promise so far, and will continue to keep it.

 

[ricchetto]

Well to start with the if the Priest did this he was not teaching the truth of the RCC. The RCC has never condemned anyone to hell. You are accusing the RCC for teaching something they never taught.

Excuse me but you don’t seem to be aware of historical facts.
Only few centuries ago innocent women were burned at the stakes by the RCC.
And only fifty years ago the priest was telling us kids that if we do not to mass we will go to hell.

And sorry but the truth is there is a permanent punishment if you reject Christ you cannot enter heaven. The truth never changed. And just because people reject Christ and his truth where does that mean he hates you. Christ loves us all and wants us all to have eternal life in him, He died on the cross so we could all achieve it. How could that be hate? On the other hand how can he give you free will to choose him or reject him, but yet you keep that free will. If you reject him you made the choice not him.

Sorry but i do not believe in permanent punishment or hell.
Jesus said time and time again that the wrong can be turned into right and this can be achieve by everybody.
Physical reincarnation give this possibility.

I know I have truth because Jesus promised it to my Church on the day of pentecost.
Rather people twist his teaching to their benefit or not, how does it make the true teaching a lie. If its his teaching as you say, how can it be a lie?
Yes they did live longer in those days and there were much fewer, but God saw that living that long was no longer a blessing so made the age less. And Jesus became the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world and ended animal sacrafice. But does not make the previous untrue.
I don’t understand your last comment, You either reject the truth or you accept it.
RCC is the Roman Catholic Church that was started by Peter as commanded by Christ.
And I disagree Christ told us the truth is same today as yesterday it never changes. As long as the RCC is here that truth will not get lost in the bin as you state. IT hasn’t in the last 2000 years. Christ kept his promise so far, and will continue to keep it.

I see that you find a bit difficult to understand how the false dogma get created.
Just look at your comment.
You say that in the past the people live a very long age.
And then you say that God change the system because that system didn’t work anymore.
What a disaster!!!
How can God do mistakes?
Of course God does not do any mistakes and of course God never allow people to live 900 years and then change to 90 years or so.
It is you that create a dogma because you try to justify a false dogma.
So one dogma is build on top of an other false dogma and in this way the truth get distorted.
After 2000 years that this happen there is no wonder that the bible contain very few truth and a lot of false truth.
If Jesus would be here now i am sure he would pull your ears very hard as he did in his time with the present clergy.

 

[SteveVH]

Excuse me but you don’t seem to be aware of historical facts.
Only few centuries ago innocent women were burned at the stakes by the RCC.
And only fifty years ago the priest was telling us kids that if we do not to mass we will go to hell.

Sorry but i do not believe in permanent punishment or hell.
Jesus said time and time again that the wrong can be turned into right and this can be achieve by everybody.
Physical reincarnation give this possibility.

I see that you find a bit difficult to understand how the false dogma get created.
Just look at your comment.
You say that in the past the people live a very long age.
And then you say that God change the system because that system didn’t work anymore.
What a disaster!!!
How can God do mistakes?
Of course God does not do any mistakes and of course God never allow people to live 900 years and then change to 90 years or so.
It is you that create a dogma because you try to justify a false dogma.
So one dogma is build on top of an other false dogma and in this way the truth get distorted.
After 2000 years that this happen there is no wonder that the bible contain very few truth and a lot of false truth.
If Jesus would be here now i am sure he would pull your ears very hard as he did in his time with the present clergy.

Very interesting. Can you please tell me how you became so enlightened? I am interested in the fact that you seem to be claiming that while the ancient Catholic Church built false dogma upon false dogma, you, somehow, are privy to the truth. How did that happen? On what authority, other than your own, do you make these claims? Have you had some special revelation on which you base your infallible testimony? Or might you be wrong?

 

[Marie5890]

I try to understand how the two can be compatible.
Some people here say that a Christian duty is to search for the truth and on the other hand religion is blind faith which means NO search is allow.
It just does not make any sense to me.
How can we search for the truth when we are confined inside a corral?

After having been Mormon I can no longer exercise “blind faith” and the Lord knows this about me.

I talk to the Lord all the time of the residual effects having been LDS has left me. Because of my personal integrity and conscience, I cant do the “I believe thus and such because the Church says so”…

The best I can do is “Ok Lord, the Church says thus and such. Cant say I believe that, but I will keep an open mind”…

That approach does not violate my conscience or integrity…

 

[Della]

After having been Mormon I can no longer exercise “blind faith” and the Lord knows this about me.

I talk to the Lord all the time of the residual effects having been LDS has left me. Because of my personal integrity and conscience, I cant do the “I believe thus and such because the Church says so”…

The best I can do is “Ok Lord, the Church says thus and such. Cant say I believe that, but I will keep an open mind”…

That approach does not violate my conscience or integrity…

One of the blessings of the Catholic Church is that she does not demand blind faith from her faithful. Everything the Church teaches is reasonable and has evidence to support it. No one needs to say, “Well, I’ll believe it just because the Church says so.” The depth of truth and spirituality in the Catholic faith speak to the fact that Church teaching is enriching, true, and to be trusted no matter how we might feel or what we have experienced before.

I came from a very anti-Catholic background and believed a lot of horror stories about the Catholic Church. I was spiritually abused by my former sect and never thought I could trust any church again. So, it took time for me to let go of my distrust, I can tell you. But in time, the more I learned about the Catholic faith and practiced it the more I felt peace and assurance that I was in the right place believing the right things. I hope you can come to that place one day, too. :tiphat:

 

[M1Garand]

I try to understand how the two can be compatible.
Some people here say that a Christian duty is to search for the truth and on the other hand religion is blind faith which means NO search is allow.
It just does not make any sense to me.
How can we search for the truth when we are confined inside a corral?

What a good and very honest question.

Blind faith is a misnomer. All faith has some basis or support. One needs to also understand that faith is not simply belief but is also trust in the promises of Christ. IN fact it is more about trust of God and less about saying yes I believe (Pope Francis has a wonderful encyclical on this very topic).

Faith is the cornerstone of belief. Religion without faith is useless. While I do not believe one can arrive at faith through purely intellectual pursuit, I do believe that faith is deepened by rigorous study and even questioning. This is the Church’s teaching as well. Regardless faith is never blind because it is in its origin from the Spirit and is a gift of Grace. The Spirit guides faith and deepens it through understanding. Therefore it is not blind at all but sees with the ultimate clarity.

Doubt does not undermine this either as doubt and even sin are paths which draw you closer to God:

St. Maximilian Kolbe:

Whenever you feel guilty, even if it is because you have consciously committed a sin, a serious sin, something you have kept doing many, many times, never let the devil deceive you by allowing him to discourage you. Whenever you feel guilty, offer all your guilt to the Immaculate, without analyzing it or examining it, as something that belongs to her…

My beloved, may every fall, even if it is serious and habitual sin, always become for us a small step toward a higher degree of perfection.

In fact, the only reason why the Immaculate permits us to fall is to cure us from our self-conceit, from our pride, to make us humble and thus make us docile to the divine graces.

The devil, instead, tries to inject in us discouragement and internal depression in those circumstances, which is, in fact, nothing else than our pride surfacing again.

If we knew the depth of our poverty, we would not be at all surprised by our falls, but rather astonished, and we would thank God, after sinning, for not allowing us to fall even deeper and still more frequently.

I can see this at work in your question. You are here for a reason and I would look to God to reveal himself to you and ask for the guidance of the Spirit.

 

[Marie5890]

Everything the Church teaches is reasonable and has evidence to support it.

I disagree with that.

But I keep an open mind.

 

[rinnie]

Excuse me but you don’t seem to be aware of historical facts.
Only few centuries ago innocent women were burned at the stakes by the RCC.
And only fifty years ago the priest was telling us kids that if we do not to mass we will go to hell.

Sorry but i do not believe in permanent punishment or hell.
Jesus said time and time again that the wrong can be turned into right and this can be achieve by everybody.
Physical reincarnation give this possibility.

I see that you find a bit difficult to understand how the false dogma get created.
Just look at your comment.
You say that in the past the people live a very long age.
And then you say that God change the system because that system didn’t work anymore.
What a disaster!!!
How can God do mistakes?
Of course God does not do any mistakes and of course God never allow people to live 900 years and then change to 90 years or so.
It is you that create a dogma because you try to justify a false dogma.
So one dogma is build on top of an other false dogma and in this way the truth get distorted.
After 2000 years that this happen there is no wonder that the bible contain very few truth and a lot of false truth.
If Jesus would be here now i am sure he would pull your ears very hard as he did in his time with the present clergy.

Well to begin with where is violence on both parts and bad decisions made by Priests using their own judgememt dogma of the faith. Do you even know what Church Dogma is. If you did we would not be making this statement.

And did the Priest tell you if you did not go to mass you are putting yourself in a state of mortal sin and are separating yourself from Christ and are in a state of grave danger. Because if he said it this way, its still true. And if you die in a state of mortal sin you can go to hell by your own choice.

And rather your believe in hell or not truly makes no difference. It does exist and Christ told us himself. And reincarnation is nothing but a bunch of bull. My God is the God of the living he took away death. When we die our soul separates from the body and goes either to eternal life in Christ or eternal death in hell. Simple reading in the bible.

Again where is people living longer in the O.T. compared to today Church Dogma. Again you need to know what Church Dogma is before you continue to condemn the word of God.

And no I did not say God changed the system. I said it is no longer a gift to live so long today as it was 2000 years ago, Back then the earth was cleaner, food more pure, etc. It is no longer a gift for one to live that long in this world because it only prolongs suffereing. And the reason there is so much suffering in this world and the reason it is the way it is, is because of sin.

Back then their lungs were better because the air was clean, they did not have to pay the price for what we call progression. Maqybe you feel you can doubt Gods decision in when he calls us home but I do not have that honor. I obey and trust God and don’t question,

And while I agree Jesus is very disapointed with much of his clergy, what has changed from the time of Judas? If he was betrayed face to face, what makes you think things would change.

Where did he ever say his current Priests would never betray him. Again show me all this Church Dogma you preach. If its Church Dogma you can present it,

 

[rinnie]

I disagree with that.

But I keep an open mind.

Do this, take something you truly doubt, or show us and maybe we can help you. But if not, investigate it on your own, and I trust you will see how, and why the Church got the teaching.

You will see it in no way disagrees with the word of God.

 

[rinnie]

You haven’t got my message.
When i say that religion is blind faith i mean that religions do not allow the people who follow such a religion to believe in what is written in other books and marking them as heretics.
So only their book carry the truth, all the rest is sort of heretic.
From here i can understand that the truth according to religion is their truth and that is the end of the story.
In other words the options for a search are all gone.

Not really it depends what you are searching for.

And truly how can I accept that Christ is the God the Son and worship him, and yet believe what boo boo acrossed the street is teaching when its in direct conflict with the word of God.

You can’t serve 2 Masters. You either serve the One God or you don’t.

What you are asking for is impossible. You are asking for plural truths. There is only One Truth.

If you believe in God the Father Almighty and that he came as Jesus the Christ you will follow him in his Church. You have every option. Its called free will.

Free will to accept him and his teachings or reject him. Don’t blame the RCC for following his rules.

 

[Della]

I disagree with that.

But I keep an open mind.

For now you disagree. If you investigate further, I believe you will come to see that it’s true.

In our times we don’t go by what has been believed for generations, but what we think is right. Well, conscience has it’s place, of course, but it must be well formed–educated as to what is actually right/wrong and why. This may be your difficulty or it may not, but if you determine why you have doubts, it will help you sort things out when you examine what the Church teaches. All the best to you.

 

[ricchetto]

Very interesting. Can you please tell me how you became so enlightened? I am interested in the fact that you seem to be claiming that while the ancient Catholic Church built false dogma upon false dogma, you, somehow, are privy to the truth. How did that happen? On what authority, other than your own, do you make these claims? Have you had some special revelation on which you base your infallible testimony? Or might you be wrong?

There is an old saying,IF YOU WANT TO KNOW ALL YOU WILL HAVE TO KNOW YOURSELF.
One more saying,WHEN YOU ARE READY ALSO THE MASTER WILL BE READY.
That is life. When the son is tired to go around and around without getting anywhere then he will try to go back home where his father will be waiting for him.
How do you go back home?
First of all you need directions and then you will have to follow the path that your teacher gave you.
To get directions you got to keep your mind open.
Blind believe in books written 2000 years ago want help.
When you say honestly to your father God…i have been around and around but i am not getting anywhere please help…then you will get help and directions.
On the other hand if you think that the system in place is ok and you are very happy with that then you don’t have to do anything but i doubt that anybody will be ok by following old dogmas.
Everything come out from God mind so everything is him.
You got the divine seed within.
Once you realize that between you and him there is no separation then you reach human emancipation and you are back home where you belong.

 

[ricchetto]

What a good and very honest question. Blind faith is a misnomer. All faith has some basis or support. One needs to also understand that faith is not simply belief but is also trust in the promises of Christ. IN fact it is more about trust of God and less about saying yes I believe (Pope Francis has a wonderful encyclical on this very topic).
Faith is the cornerstone of belief. Religion without faith is useless. While I do not believe one can arrive at faith through purely intellectual pursuit, I do believe that faith is deepened by rigorous study and even questioning. This is the Church’s teaching as well. Regardless faith is never blind because it is in its origin from the Spirit and is a gift of Grace. The Spirit guides faith and deepens it through understanding. Therefore it is not blind at all but sees with the ultimate clarity.

Yours is blind believe in something that was given to you by other people not come out by logic reason.
I agree that faith is very important but at the same time is also very important to make sure that this faith has got the foundation on secure ground.
If you have total faith in the Bible then you also believe in hell, but hell is a false dogma.
God can not create something that will end up in the rubbish bin.
From perfection you got perfection not rubbish.

 

[ricchetto]

Not really it depends what you are searching for. And truly how can I accept that Christ is the God the Son and worship him, and yet believe what boo boo acrossed the street is teaching when its in direct conflict with the word of God.
You can’t serve 2 Masters. You either serve the One God or you don’t.
What you are asking for is impossible. You are asking for plural truths. There is only One Truth.
If you believe in God the Father Almighty and that he came as Jesus the Christ you will follow him in his Church. You have every option. Its called free will.
Free will to accept him and his teachings or reject him. Don’t blame the RCC for following his rules.

You strike one more dogma.
If Jesus is the only Master then how those who came before him (million of people) could manage?
Eastern religion are more open mind.
They believe that God came in flesh several times with Shiva, Krisna and enlighten other people like Buddha, Ramakrisna, Jesus and many saints.
Just put yourself in God shoes
How would you give direction to people?
Would you let them wait thousand of years and then give only a Jesus?
What about those born under different religions, different places where they never heard about Jesus or in different planet?
I just can not believe how you guys say that you search for the truth and then you hide under the pages of a book written 2000 years ago that changed time after time!