Blog claims Pope Benedict says Luther's "faith alone" translation is correct

[Chatty_Cathy]

Two points:

1. The Pope did not claim Luther’s translation was correct. That is, he did not claim that the English word ‘alone’ could be translated out of Romans 3:28. His point was that the words of Luther’s doctrine could be given a Catholic interpretation.
   .

More to ponder - I wounld note want to interpret a direct statement from the Pope. There are actually 3 related Audiences: 19 Nov, 28 Nov and 10 Dec. Each explains further.
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/

19 Nov 2008, 3rd paragraph from the bottom:

" For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true,…"

From 10 December 2008

“Faith is not a product of our thought or our reflection; it is something new that we cannot invent but only receive as a gift, as a new thing produced by God.”

He says nothing about works.

I also find this statement interesting, Again 10 Dec 08

" But in holy Communion the inverse process is brought about. Christ, the Lord, assimilates us into himself, introducing us into his glorious Body, and thus we all become his Body."

Assimilates? Sound like Luther…

I’m sure the Holy See is fluent enough in English to print exact what the Pope intended to say. Doing translations between versions of Italian, German and English would be left to individual interpretations and not the Vaticans.

I highly recommend the readings.

 

[manualman]

1. The cited reference simply does NOT endorse Luther’s translation on literal grounds. It gives a potential explanation for how Luther’s statement COULD be interpreted as orthodox. This is not a discussion of biblical translation, it is a discussion of theology.
2. The pope said that Luther’s read on the MEANING of the passage is OK IF you include the context of the next statement. Luther was making an interpretive translation and using the word alone to emphasize the meaning of the text. In other words, Luther wanted to emphasize that it ISN’T the works of the Mosaic law that save us, it is faith in Christ.
3. Since this isn’t the only verse in Scripture, one must still do the catholic ‘thing’ and develop a theology consistent with ALL of Scripture. Thus, the sheep and goats story still utterly refutes Luther’s later developments on the idea of ‘Faith Alone.’

 

[JP_Borberg]

Cathy.

Luther was a heretic, which means he disagreed with the Church about some things. But he was a Christian, which means he didn’t disagree with the Church on other things. The fact that the pope and Luther say the same thing sometimes shouldn’t be too surprising.

I know very little about what Luther thought. I know quite a bit more about what the Church teaches and what various saints have said about various things. And even your new stuff sounds very familiar, so the pope isn’t saying anything new. Though if there is a parallel between what the pope says and Luther said I would say it was Luther agreeing with the Church. Especially if what the pope is saying is what the Church has always taught.

I sill agree with EpiskoposEridos, in that regardless of the above, the subject line of the OP is incorrect. The pope has made no statement on the accuracy of Luther’s translation.

 

[a_burger]

Jolly Joe might want to know that many years ago Pope John Paul II said the same thing that Luthern was right. You can’t be wrong when you quote the Bible.Faith alone is the key to our salvation. That’s why good works are neccessary, because without them faith is dead.

 

[manualman]

In a way, you COULD argue that this is a defense of Luther’s translation.

But only if you wanted to concede that Luther was the first to use the “Amplified Bible” approach to Scripture translation.

 

[Catherine_S]

Sounds like sola fide is only true if it does not oppose works. Sounds like everything is still the same as it ever was.

Pax.

It is !

’Thus in Corinth the term "πάντα μοι έξεστιν "(I can do what I like) was widespread."
Pope Benedict
.
Is this thinking "πάντα μοι έξεστιν" (I can do what I like) not widespread in our day? Holy Scripture defines what love is…what Charity really means.
.
It is the same vision, according to which communion with Christ, faith in Christ, creates charity. And charity is the fulfilment of communion with Christ.
Pope Benedict

"Christian freedom is not** libertinism**; the liberation of which St Paul spoke is not liberation** from** good works."
Pope Benedict

.

 

[vs_trumpet]

In a way, you COULD argue that this is a defense of Luther’s translation.

But only if you wanted to concede that Luther was the first to use the “Amplified Bible” approach to Scripture translation.

Luther’s translation has always been justified as a “dynamic equivalence” translation particular to German language. What is the correct dynamic equivalence translation for German might not be for English.

 

[Robertwilliam]

Paul wrote Faith apart from works

 

[Digitonomy]

I still haven’t heard though

Is the text as written or as presented?

John Allen once discussed this in his column. If I recall, the press is given a final draft before the pope speaks. The pope may or may not deviate from what’s on the page, and the Vatican press office then cleans up what the pope said before it releases the statement the next day. This accounts for the occasional buzz in the media about some surprising statement the pontiff has made, which doesn’t turn out to be a big deal when the transcript is later released.

I couldn’t find the column in a brief search, but here’s an example of the same thing described in a blog, apparently citing the LA Times.

In the 25-minute news conference, Benedict was asked if he agreed with excommunication for Mexican lawmakers who last month legalized abortion in Mexico City. “Yes, this excommunication is not something arbitrary,” he answered, before going on to explain that such punishment is part of church law.

The transcript on the Vatican website removes the “Yes, this” and begins, “Excommunication is …” — making his remarks seem more generic and unconnected to the case in Mexico.

 

[Jolly_Joe]

Thank you.

I didn’t know how they did it.

It’s so easy to just post the prepared speech. But almost all speakers deviate from prepared speeches.

And one could think that it’s automatically “better” to record and then transcribe it, that’s subject to errors. Things like applause, the speaker turns his head, a jet goes over, or the word is just mistaken by the typist.

A start with the prepared and make a revision where the speaker deviated is a reasonable way to do it.

Though I suppose it’s almost certainty for someone to record and find a bit of a deviation at some point.

Anyway, thanks again for the information, I was really wondering how they did it because I realize there are difficulties with every system.

 

[Digitonomy]

A start with the prepared and make a revision where the speaker deviated is a reasonable way to do it.

It is a double-edged sword. It is good that we can rely on the transcripts posted at Zenit to accurately reflect Vatican policy. What’s not so good is when changes are made that deviate from what the pope said, and it appears the Vatican is trying to whitewash what he said - such as we saw in my example, and what may well have happened with the speech you brought up in the OP.

 

[EpiskoposEridos]

Paul wrote Faith apart from works

Well, if you are referring to Romans 3, 28. it reads:
λογιζομεθα ουν πιστει δικαιουσθαι ανθρωπον χωρις εργων νομου.
The words χωρις εργων νομου could be translated variously as “without works of law”, “apart from works of law”, etc. I don’t think it matters which you pick. I think the idea is that you don’t need the works of law to be justified.

In the General Audience, the pope tells us that the “law” referred to is the Torah (Pentateuch). If you actually read this, you will see that it contains a lot of prescriptions about food, not to mention sacrificing your first-born male animals etc. (In the case of an ***, you are required to sacrifice a lamb in its place, or break the ***'s neck…) It is simply no news that Catholics are not required to sacrifice their first-born male animals or comply with kosher restrictions on what they eat.

On the subject of Luther’s translation, having looked at his version carefully alongside the Greek, I can see purely linguistic reasons why he would feel the need to add the word allein, The German sentence simply doesn’t make sense without it. Because it is required grammatically to complete the sentence, it can be given a weak interpretation: faith without works of law rather than faith and nothing else. I am not saying that Luther did not intend the stronger interpretation, only that the weaker one is possible.

The English version, by the way, is terrible. It is internally incoherent, and deviates starkly from the German. I almost feel like applying for the job as a translator at the Vatican.

 

[rpp]

Luther’s translation has always been justified as a “dynamic equivalence” translation particular to German language. What is the correct dynamic equivalence translation for German might not be for English.

That would explain why, at the urging of his contemporaries and fellow breakaway priests, he removed the word “alone” from his later translation. Thank you for clearing that up.

 

[Robertwilliam]

That would explain why, at the urging of his contemporaries and fellow breakaway priests, he removed the word “alone” from his later translation. Thank you for clearing that up.

This is the first time I heard that Luther removed the word “alone” from the translation he made. It kind of makes me rethink his “heretical” translation. Luther must have been an honest person after all.

 

[a_burger]

There are two verses in the bible. One says you are saved by faith alone. Since Jesus told us Scripture is God-breather that is correct. You don’t seem to understand what that means. Pope John Paul II said the same thing many years ago. The Bible also says that faith without good deeds is dead. Again since that is in the Bible is also is correct. They seem contradictory but they aren’t. What Paul is saying is that (active) alone saves you. Faith is good deeds done because of your faith in Christ. There are other good deeds. The Old Testament tells us the good deeds of those outside of salvation are like dirty rags in the eyes of God. I was actually taught this by a Messianic Rabbi. In no way is the statement faith alone save you contradictory. Many of the liberal Protestants think it means they have a license to sin.

 

[rpp]

There are two verses in the bible. One says you are saved by faith alone. Since Jesus told us Scripture is God-breather that is correct. You don’t seem to understand what that means. Pope John Paul II said the same thing many years ago. The Bible also says that faith without good deeds is dead. Again since that is in the Bible is also is correct. They seem contradictory but they aren’t. What Paul is saying is that (active) alone saves you. Faith is good deeds done because of your faith in Christ. There are other good deeds. The Old Testament tells us the good deeds of those outside of salvation are like dirty rags in the eyes of God. I was actually taught this by a Messianic Rabbi. In no way is the statement faith alone save you contradictory. Many of the liberal Protestants think it means they have a license to sin.

Can you please cite these two verses you are referring to? In addition, Luther himself said a person could commit a hundred murders a day or commit adultery a hundred times a day and if they had faith in God, thay were cool and assured of Heaven. Would that mean, by your definition, that Luther would qualify as a “liberal Protestant theologian”?

 

[Robertwilliam]

Can you please cite these two verses you are referring to? In addition, Luther himself said a person could commit a hundred murders a day or commit adultery a hundred times a day and if they had faith in God, thay were cool and assured of Heaven. Would that mean, by your definition, that Luther would qualify as a “liberal Protestant theologian”?

He also said to sin as much as you can.

 

[a_burger]

James 2:17 In this same way, faith by itself, if not accompanied by action, is dead.
Romans 4:1: And he received the sign of circumcision , a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still circumcised.
Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
all our righteous acts are like filthy rags.

 

[Robertwilliam]

James 2:17 In this same way, faith by itself, if not accompanied by action, is dead.
Romans 4:1: And he received the sign of circumcision , a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still circumcised.
Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
all our righteous acts are like filthy rags.

Faith is made PERFECT by works

 

[motstraumen]

The quote in that article doesn’t even say “faith alone” …I read what the pope was saying (vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html) and I see now why the person who published that article left out the part where he did say “faith alone”. he says this:

‘For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love’

This is just a prime example of someone taking something out of context to justify their flawed beliefs. The pope is clearly saying just what the Church teaches (see the Catechism) that we aren’t saved by works alone, we aren’t saved by faith alone, and there is no saving grace without love (charity). Makes sense to me.

If you were to study Luther, as Pope Benedict has, you would would see clearly that Luther meant just that Faith alone, but the Faith lived out in love. Not only did he write but lived it by being a true pastor to his people, be they a king from Denmark or a peasant in need of some money. He loved them because Christ had loved him first. The sense you get from Luther is that Faith in Christ compells one to love your neighbor, to forgive your neighbor, to do good. Did he write crudely sometimes, yes, but not anything worse than what I have seen on this forum. Do you realize that the Lutheran Charitable organizations around the world, dispite our small numbers, is some of the largest in the world. We just don’t sit there on our faith posteriors, we fully understand: “Yes, by grace through faith I am saved, and Thank you, Dear Jesus, open my eyes to my neighbor’s pain and suffering and use me! Not to my glory but Solo Deo Gloria!”