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7_Sorrows
Guest
Since I am a convert of only 8 1/2 years I cannot comment on why there are so many
lapsed Catholics. I have heard some Catholic friends (who are in their 80’s) exclaim “why would we want to go back to pre-Vatican II?”. Since I wasn’t Catholic then I can’t compare.
lapsed Catholics. I have heard some Catholic friends (who are in their 80’s) exclaim “why would we want to go back to pre-Vatican II?”. Since I wasn’t Catholic then I can’t compare.
C
Crusaderbear
Guest
I was a lapsed catholic, and, as the saying goes, I represent that remark. For well over 40 years.
I became very lapsed (not going at all) after retiring from the Navy in the mid 90’s. Prior to that my attendance just got more and more infrequent due to deployments and, well, life. We had no kids, so there was nothing anchoring us in the church. (Something not addressed in the blog…but a possible reason fro many lapses?)
I think in large part because my 70’s era catechism largely emphasized feel good catholicism and my 60’s ‘nuns with steel rulers and icewater for blood’ was, as the article says, scray as… I saw no downside to being spiritual without being religious, until about two years ago. Strangely, I’ve always said the occasional rosary, just not with much feeling. It was a relaxing mantra almost. Suddenly I wanted to start doing it right, mysteries included, so I did, daily.
Now, Approaching 60, both my wife and I realized we were missing something, we returned to church, my wife entered RCIA and became Catholic this Easter the downside I never saw was the community support, and the reinforcement of God in my life.
I always have known he was there, watching over me and my wife, I just had the bad manners and poor judgement not to be willing to thank him properly. I think I am doing that now, hopefully.
The best thing is, and our parish priest has taught me this, is you can ALWAYS come home. Just don’t wait too long!
I became very lapsed (not going at all) after retiring from the Navy in the mid 90’s. Prior to that my attendance just got more and more infrequent due to deployments and, well, life. We had no kids, so there was nothing anchoring us in the church. (Something not addressed in the blog…but a possible reason fro many lapses?)
I think in large part because my 70’s era catechism largely emphasized feel good catholicism and my 60’s ‘nuns with steel rulers and icewater for blood’ was, as the article says, scray as… I saw no downside to being spiritual without being religious, until about two years ago. Strangely, I’ve always said the occasional rosary, just not with much feeling. It was a relaxing mantra almost. Suddenly I wanted to start doing it right, mysteries included, so I did, daily.
Now, Approaching 60, both my wife and I realized we were missing something, we returned to church, my wife entered RCIA and became Catholic this Easter the downside I never saw was the community support, and the reinforcement of God in my life.
I always have known he was there, watching over me and my wife, I just had the bad manners and poor judgement not to be willing to thank him properly. I think I am doing that now, hopefully.
The best thing is, and our parish priest has taught me this, is you can ALWAYS come home. Just don’t wait too long!
D
DanielStDominic
Guest
This is very beautifully put, but we Catholics need to start recognizing the importance of grace. The good thief repented, not because of what he saw, but because he was given the grace to repent, with which he cooperated, and everything else followed. Indeed, I would argue the primary fault of this article is that it seems to treat certain results of grace as if they were the result of willpower or decision or desire.
P
ProdglArchitect
Guest
You seem to be implying that Catholics don’t understand the role of grace, which couldn’t be further from the truth.
However, to gain the benefit of the graces which God pours out onto us, we still have to open our wills up to Him. Both the grace and the will are important, neither one will achieve salvation on its own. God will provide everyone the grace to attain salvation, however, it is till up to an act of will on the part of each individual to actually accept that grace and achieve the salvation that is its end.
Frequently, our acceptance of God’s grace is set in motion by something we see. In my case, I was a lapsed Catholic though college and for a while afterwards. Shortly after moving to my new job, I had a spiritual experience that made me open my eyes and return to my faith. Without that personal experience, without that witness of God, i would not have accepted His grace and returned to the practice of my faith.
D
DanielStDominic
Guest
I wrote that we need to start recognizing the importance of grace more often than we do. For example, you mention will and opening up and acceptance and so on. Well and fine, but those things are impossible without grace. In fact, one of the biggest mysteries in Catholic theology is how, precisely, free will is possible (and we know it is) given the utter dependence on grace throughout the salvific process. One cannot cooperate with grace without actual graces to do so. No amount of reflecting on Crucifixes will change that.
It is my opinion that certain forms of Molinism have trickled down into the common, Catholic consciousness in such a way that we’ve put more of an emphasis on the human than on God’s sovereign act in saving His people. As a committed Dominican, I just cannot agree.
P
ProdglArchitect
Guest
I’m not arguing against this position, but you seem to be denying the role will plays in our salvation. Grace is the first step, will is the second.I wrote that we need to start recognizing the importance of grace more often than we do. For example, you mention will and opening up and acceptance and so on. Well and fine, but those things are impossible without grace. In fact, one of the biggest mysteries in Catholic theology is how, precisely, free will is possible (and we know it is) given the utter dependence on grace throughout the salvific process. One cannot cooperate with grace without actual graces to do so. No amount of reflecting on Crucifixes will change that.
It is my opinion that certain forms of Molinism have trickled down into the common, Catholic consciousness in such a way that we’ve put more of an emphasis on the human than on God’s sovereign act in saving His people. As a committed Dominican, I just cannot agree.
R
revert_jen
Guest
It doesn’t seem that great a mystery (in the colloquial sense) to me. Certainly we cannot cooperate with grace without the graces freely given to do so. But we certainly can refuse to cooperate with grace even though we have been given the graces to cooperate. I know it on the best authority, because I’ve done it myself.
All I can say to that is that it hasn’t been my experience that Catholics do this, although it has been my experience that many Protestants think Catholics do this.It is my opinion that certain forms of Molinism have trickled down into the common, Catholic consciousness in such a way that we’ve put more of an emphasis on the human than on God’s sovereign act in saving His people. As a committed Dominican, I just cannot agree.
(no longer responding to DanielStDominic) As for the original article, I think the problem with it for me is that there are different kinds of being a lapsed Catholic. There are lapsed Catholics who just go away from God altogether. There are lapsed Catholics who continue to believe in and try to follow God, but maybe don’t think about it as much. There are also lapsed Catholics who attend Protestant churches instead. I fall into this last category. (There are certainly other categories, but I can’t think of them all just now.
)For people like me, poor catechesis is a significant contributor to someone leaving the Church. I never lost the sense of my own sinfulness, but I didn’t really understand what the Catholic Church had that Protestant churches didn’t. Better catechesis might have worked for me.
sourced blog post:
I think this is to some extent wrong. You can have a conversion experience without the results of being obedient (because you don’t understand why), learning the faith (because you think you already understand it), and devoutly participating at Mass (because you don’t truly realize what it means). What proper catechesis does is prepare you so that when you have a conversion experience, you know what to do next. Good liturgy helps you to understand, at an emotional level, what is happening at the Mass. Good homilies are, granted, less important, but they do help you to feel like you can be intellectually “fed” without going to a Protestant service. Basically, good catechesis is not a substitute for a conversion experience, it just enables you to get the best fruit from the conversion experience when the Holy Spirit grants it to you.
I can’t comment on the pre-conciliar Church because I was born after the Council. However, I have a hard time believing that everyone (meaning adults) was afraid all the time, and only attended Mass because they were afraid of priests. They may have attended more often because they were afraid of Hell, but that isn’t necessarily bad. Probably children were more afraid then than now, but I get the impression that children were generally also more afraid then of parents, teachers, and random neighboring adults in general than now as well. But there were good and bad priests before the Council, just like there are good and bad priests now. And the words “good” and “lenient” are not synonyms.
–Jen
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