Book of Daniel

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The book of daniel gives prophecy.
Okay simple…

Does the Roman Catholic church have any advice on what it means?
which nations are the beasts? Which nation is the little horn?

I have come upon other denominations giving examples that just don’t seem to make sense because they divide rather than unite.

I used google but I can’t seem to find the answer.

Specifically Daniel 2 and 7
Thank you! :hmmm::hmmm:
I’m having trouble finding any answers to this. The best I can find is that those writing hateful and divisive things are liars and scammers, but ad hominem does not defeat the argument. :confused:
I want an answer to this, this section seems more active than the traditional Catholicism.
 
I want an answer to this, this section seems more active than the traditional Catholicism.
I know that you need an answer about the Daniel 2 & 7, however, what has me confused is chapter 7:13, as there are many variations, “This passage forms the foundation for the declaration of Christ regarding His future coming, which is described after Daniel 7:13 as a coming of the Son of man with****, in, on the clouds of heaven; Matthew 24:30; Matthew 26:64; Mark 18:26; Revelation 1:7; Revelation 14:14 and if you read from the Torah, "like the clouds of Heaven came one like the son of man” (Daniel 7:13) and “one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven”. Could the meaning of the verse indicate with the great patriarchs? To issue the great judgment -

Again, it is difficult to assume the description of those verses based on only one source - especially with the variations of how it’s written - and the language also another thing is there are basically 70/72 nations listed under the kingdoms of God, however, with the Canaanites - Israel replaces them as well as there are others who have been replaced and other tribes that assumed them - also listing those who have been priest/kings prior to the kingdom of Israel as we’ve read this in Genesis 14, ’ 18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying…"

You could read Daniel 2 & 7 and compare it to the parable of the weeds and the wheat - “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, the field is the world;
and the good seed, these are the children of the kingdom; and the darnel are the children of the evil one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels.” - all very speculative on that. Again, this is an assumption because we could discuss this as being individuals or nations…

Genesis chapter 10 describes how the present world population was derived from Noah’s three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth, and their wives (three family groups). Verse 32 states, “From these the nations spread out over the earth after the flood.” Additional references are given in 1 Chronicles chapter 1. Genesis 10 exactly names 16 grandsons of Noah, and then we are provided further details of the Babel dispersion (Genesis 11) where their descendants fanned out over the earth and established the various nations of the ancient world. The number of descendants of Noah (grandsons, great-grandsons, etc.) mentioned are 26 from Shem, 30 from Ham, and 14 from Japheth, totaling 70 “sons” or “nations.” These 70 nations are the descendants (generations, genealogies or family histories) of the sons of Noah, known from Hebrew antiquity (Talmudic tradition of seventy nations in the world), and other ancient sources. Most, if not all, tribes and nations can be traced to these men through their descendants. Chapter 10 describes the differentiation of nations, and asserts that we were all descended from Noah. It is important to understand that people and nations are referred to in a genealogical form (common in Hebrew and other Semitic languages).

We’re not even adding the tribes that came from Ishmael and Isaac or Esau and Jacob…or the divisions Joseph and the 12 twelve tribes of Israel. There is an order to which nation and tribe each belongs too - again, the mixture of weeds and wheat are diffidently visible. So it would have to be impossible to figure out the other side -of who these nations are in Daniel and also those that are opposed and still not see where these countries originated out of which son or tribe? The leading Afghan tribes,claim with pride to be descended from King Saul of the tribe of Benjamin. So I would think it would be difficult - especially, when there are other parts of scripture that come into play…

reference:
soundchristian.com/man/
 
I want an answer to this, this section seems more active than the traditional Catholicism.
Scott Hahn routinely refers to this vision and points out that Paul and every other person that understood the OT at the time understood this vision and why Paul wanted to get to Rome…

stmargaretmary.com/rcia/SHahnAdultEd12.html
Lastly, in the Old Testament we have what I regard as the greatest series of prophecies concerning what it means to be Catholic. I mean, you could go elsewhere. There are many prophecies that I should mention: Habakkuk 2:14 promises us that the knowledge of the Lord shall cover the earth as the waters cover the sea, which the Catholic Church is fulfilling through history. But Daniel, the prophet Daniel gives to us a great prophetic insight and hope into the nature of the kingdom’s catholicity in a time of great corruption and affliction. And here in Babylon Nebuchadnezzar rules as a pagan. He has crushed Jerusalem, he has destroyed the temple, he has dispersed the inhabitants and he has taken captive people like Daniel. Then he has a nightmare and he commands that the wise men come in and interpret it. Nobody can. Daniel comes in and he interprets the dream that Nebuchadnezzar had. He tells Nebuchadnezzar that in your dream you saw this great image of a statue with a gold head and silver shoulders and bronze belly and bronze thighs and legs of iron and feet of iron and clay.
DANIEL PROPHECIES THE CATHOLICITY OF GOD’S FUTURE KINGDOM
Nebuchadnezzar was impressed. He didn’t even have to tell Daniel the dream. Daniel knew the dream, and then he proceeded to interpret it. He said, “You, O king, are the gold head, Babylon, but there will come a kingdom after you that will take over your authority.” He was referring to the Medo-Persian empire which corresponded to the silver shoulders. Then he goes on to describe how the bronze belly, the Greek empire under Alexander the Great would take it away from the Medes and the Persians. Then fourthly, a great and terrible power would be raised up, the legs of iron, terribly strong, referring to the Roman empire.
Then what happens? He goes on to describe this. He says, “As you looked, a stone was cut out but by no human hand and it smote the image on its feet of iron and clay and broke them in pieces. Then the iron and the clay, the silver and the bronze and the gold all together were broken into pieces and became like the chaff on the summer threshing-floors and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them could be found.” This little stone fell upon the fourth empire, the Roman empire symbolized by the iron legs, broke the feet, shattered the legs and the whole image crumbled and blew away. A little small stone; but the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. And he goes on to interpret this particular kingdom and he says, “In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it shall stand forever.”
He goes on to point out that Jesus is the stone to destroy the final Kingdom…
What is he talking about? Well, there is only one kingdom that came down from heaven as a small stone which the builders rejected and it became the cornerstone of the new temple. The word for stone in Hebrew, “evan”, is almost the same as the word for son, “ben.” So the son is the stone who came down and, through His sacrifice and through His spiritual kingdom in the Church, destroyed the fourth and final empire in Rome and brought about a worldwide empire that will last forever, whose citizens we are.
and if the final Kingdom Rome is to be destroyed and a new Kingdom set up that is why Paul and everyone that understood the OT wanted to get to Rome…👍
 
Scott Hahn routinely refers to this vision and points out that Paul and every other person that understood the OT at the time understood this vision and why Paul wanted to get to Rome…

stmargaretmary.com/rcia/SHahnAdultEd12.html

He goes on to point out that Jesus is the stone to destroy the final Kingdom…

and if the final Kingdom Rome is to be destroyed and a new Kingdom set up that is why Paul and everyone that understood the OT wanted to get to Rome…👍
Aha, it is so simple, I did not take the time to reflect on this. Thank you. I don’t have time to read the links in depth right now, but does it also offer in there an explanation for the 10 horns and the 1 horn that became the greatest and destroyed 3 others? Thank you! :coffeeread:
 
I know that you need an answer about the Daniel 2 & 7, however, what has me confused is chapter 7:13, as there are many variations, “This passage forms the foundation for the declaration of Christ regarding His future coming, which is described after Daniel 7:13 as a coming of the Son of man with****, in, on the clouds of heaven; Matthew 24:30; Matthew 26:64; Mark 18:26; Revelation 1:7; Revelation 14:14 and if you read from the Torah, "like the clouds of Heaven came one like the son of man” (Daniel 7:13) and “one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven”. Could the meaning of the verse indicate with the great patriarchs? To issue the great judgment -

Again, it is difficult to assume the description of those verses based on only one source - especially with the variations of how it’s written - and the language also another thing is there are basically 70/72 nations listed under the kingdoms of God, however, with the Canaanites - Israel replaces them as well as there are others who have been replaced and other tribes that assumed them - also listing those who have been priest/kings prior to the kingdom of Israel as we’ve read this in Genesis 14, ’ 18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying…"

You could read Daniel 2 & 7 and compare it to the parable of the weeds and the wheat - “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, the field is the world;
and the good seed, these are the children of the kingdom; and the darnel are the children of the evil one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels.” - all very speculative on that. Again, this is an assumption because we could discuss this as being individuals or nations…

Genesis chapter 10 describes how the present world population was derived from Noah’s three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth, and their wives (three family groups). Verse 32 states, “From these the nations spread out over the earth after the flood.” Additional references are given in 1 Chronicles chapter 1. Genesis 10 exactly names 16 grandsons of Noah, and then we are provided further details of the Babel dispersion (Genesis 11) where their descendants fanned out over the earth and established the various nations of the ancient world. The number of descendants of Noah (grandsons, great-grandsons, etc.) mentioned are 26 from Shem, 30 from Ham, and 14 from Japheth, totaling 70 “sons” or “nations.” These 70 nations are the descendants (generations, genealogies or family histories) of the sons of Noah, known from Hebrew antiquity (Talmudic tradition of seventy nations in the world), and other ancient sources. Most, if not all, tribes and nations can be traced to these men through their descendants. Chapter 10 describes the differentiation of nations, and asserts that we were all descended from Noah. It is important to understand that people and nations are referred to in a genealogical form (common in Hebrew and other Semitic languages).

We’re not even adding the tribes that came from Ishmael and Isaac or Esau and Jacob…or the divisions Joseph and the 12 twelve tribes of Israel. There is an order to which nation and tribe each belongs too - again, the mixture of weeds and wheat are diffidently visible. So it would have to be impossible to figure out the other side -of who these nations are in Daniel and also those that are opposed and still not see where these countries originated out of which son or tribe? The leading Afghan tribes,claim with pride to be descended from King Saul of the tribe of Benjamin. So I would think it would be difficult - especially, when there are other parts of scripture that come into play…

reference:
soundchristian.com/man/
Thank you! :tiphat:
 
Scott Hahn routinely refers to this vision and points out that Paul and every other person that understood the OT at the time understood this vision and why Paul wanted to get to Rome…

stmargaretmary.com/rcia/SHahnAdultEd12.html

He goes on to point out that Jesus is the stone to destroy the final Kingdom…

and if the final Kingdom Rome is to be destroyed and a new Kingdom set up that is why Paul and everyone that understood the OT wanted to get to Rome…👍
I did read your link and I thought it was very informative. Though there was another thought to all of this:

Not much different than what I understood: mb-soft.com/believe/txs/daniel.htm

Only that in both the commentaries, it notes: 7:1-8 The first of these two visions (chapter 7), when more closely viewed, resolves itself into four, with their interpretations, but we shall treat it singly. The lion (v.4) corresponds to the golden head of Nebuchadnezzar’s image, and stands for Babylon. The bear (v. 5) corresponds to the best and arms of silver, and stands for the MedoPersian empire. Being “raised up on one side,” means that one part of the empire was stronger than the other, which was Persia. The “three ribs in the mouth of it” are the three provinces conquered by it not long before, Susiana, Lydia and Asia Minor. The leopard (v. 6) is the Grecian empire, corresponding to the “belly and thighs of brass.”

“It is remarkable that the heraldic insignia of the Gentile nations are all beasts or birds of prey.” The “sea,” in Scripture, stands for the peoples of the earth (Isa. 17:5, Rev. 17:15). The “great sea” Daniel saw was the Mediterranean, the center of the prophetic earth. That is, where not otherwise indicated, the nations with which prophecy has to do chiefly, are those that border on that sea, or whose political affiliation are closely related to them."

Is there any differences in this scriptural point about the parable of the weeds and the wheat that Jesus mentioned in Matt 13:24-30; 36-43? when you read Daniel 2 & 7 and compare it to the parable of the weeds and the wheat - “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the children of the kingdom (see Deuteronomy 32, as compared to Romans (Romans 11:17 ) - isn’t that the same as the replacement of the Canaanites, as the Israelites replaced the Canaanites, fortifying the city on the northern “horn” (Horns of Hittim - in Hebrew the name of the hill is “Karnei Khittin”, or the horns of the wheat, since in Hebrew these words mean Karnei = Horns, Hittin = wheat.) (biblewalks.com/Sites/Hittim.html#SouthHorn) ; and the darnel are the children of the evil one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels (Unetanneh Tokef).” - There’s an assumption to all of this because we could discuss which individuals or nations…as much as kingdoms will rise and fall.

Just a small note, Germany, and during WWII, was a small country but being small (as in the little horn - which is very similar) grew and encompassed Europe. The great evil, was the fact of how much of Europe that this small country encompassed -it was “only” by the grace God (and very much so…) we where able to stop it, but remember how much damages were done before it was stopped and compare that to what’s on its way.

Personally if we look at the list of mortal sin, tell me how many that we’ve encountered so far:

he Church also tells us that the sins of anger, blasphemy, envy, hatred, malice, murder, neglect of Sunday obligation, sins against faith (incredulity against God or heresy), sins against hope (obstinate despair in the hope for salvation and/or presumption that oneself can live without God or be saved by one’s own power) and sins against love (indifference towards charity, ingratitude, and/or hatred of God) also constitute grave matter. This list of grave sins, is based on Jesus Christ’s interpretation of the gravity of the Ten Commandments. Grave sins can be classed as sins against God, neighbor and self, and can further be divided into carnal and spiritual sins (CCC 1853).
Code:
Four other sins are considered grave also. These sins not only offend God, but men as well. Thus these four sins are called "the sins that cry to heaven for vengeance" and are likewise mortal sins. These grave sins are:

The voluntary murder (Genesis 4:10)
The sin of impurity against nature –Sodomy and homosexual relations (Genesis 18:20)
Taking advantage of the poor (Exodus 2:23)
Defrauding the workingman of his wages (James 5:4)

Finally, the capital sins are also considered grave matter. These sins are vices and are defined as contrary to the Christian virtues of holiness. They are pride, avarice, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony, and sloth (acedia).
saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html
 
Thank you! :tiphat:
You’re more than welcome - however, while I think it maybe good to understand both the O.T as well as to compare it with the N.T, and also while I think scriptural understanding is so important, it is rather frustrating/and defeating not to have the tools (spiritual) inside to be able to overcome some of issues that we’re facing in today’s society - or for us to understand of which kingdoms/nations will arise and fall, but (again) how can some prepare for what lays in the forefront - in the same way, imagine (and using this for an example (again)) how were we able to prepare for what happened in WWI and WWII? Read Lamentations and get the idea of it - because it wasn’t much different. We saw what evil can do - if memory serves me correctly that war was the war of wars…I had a nice discussion with our neighbor from Russia, Jewish, from a Czech’s point of view - I don’t know which was worst. Look at the rise of leaders during that time…that should tell you how evil - evil can get…
 
I did read your link and I thought it was very informative. Though there was another thought to all of this:

Not much different than what I understood: mb-soft.com/believe/txs/daniel.htm

Only that in both the commentaries, it notes: 7:1-8 The first of these two visions (chapter 7), when more closely viewed, resolves itself into four, with their interpretations, but we shall treat it singly. The lion (v.4) corresponds to the golden head of Nebuchadnezzar’s image, and stands for Babylon. The bear (v. 5) corresponds to the best and arms of silver, and stands for the MedoPersian empire. Being “raised up on one side,” means that one part of the empire was stronger than the other, which was Persia. The “three ribs in the mouth of it” are the three provinces conquered by it not long before, Susiana, Lydia and Asia Minor. The leopard (v. 6) is the Grecian empire, corresponding to the “belly and thighs of brass.”

Is there any differences in this scriptural point about the parable of the weeds and the wheat that Jesus mentioned in Matt 13:24-30; 36-43? when you read Daniel 2 & 7 and compare it to the parable of the weeds and the wheat - "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the children of the kingdom (see Deuteronomy 32, as compared to Romans (Romans 11:17 ) - isn’t that the same as the replacement of the Canaanites, as the Israelites replaced the Canaanites, fortifying the city on the northern “horn” (Horns of Hittim - in Hebrew the name of the hill is “Karnei Khittin”, or the horns of the wheat, since in Hebrew these words mean Karnei = Horns, Hittin = wheat.) (biblewalks.com/Sites/Hittim.html#SouthHorn) ; and the darnel are the children of the evil one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels (Unetanneh Tokef)." - There’s an assumption to all of this because we could discuss which individuals or nations…as much as kingdoms will rise and fall.

Just a small note, Germany, and during WWII, was a small country but being small (as in the little horn - which is very similar) grew and encompassed Europe. The great evil, was the fact of how much of Europe that this small country encompassed -it was “only” by the grace God (and very much so…) we where able to stop it, but remember how much damages were done before it was stopped and compare that to what’s on its way.

Personally if we look at the list of mortal sin, tell me how many that we’ve encountered so far:

he Church also tells us that the sins of anger, blasphemy, envy, hatred, malice, murder, neglect of Sunday obligation, sins against faith (incredulity against God or heresy), sins against hope (obstinate despair in the hope for salvation and/or presumption that oneself can live without God or be saved by one’s own power) and sins against love (indifference towards charity, ingratitude, and/or hatred of God) also constitute grave matter. This list of grave sins, is based on Jesus Christ’s interpretation of the gravity of the Ten Commandments. Grave sins can be classed as sins against God, neighbor and self, and can further be divided into carnal and spiritual sins (CCC 1853).
Code:
Four other sins are considered grave also. These sins not only offend God, but men as well. Thus these four sins are called "the sins that cry to heaven for vengeance" and are likewise mortal sins. These grave sins are:

The voluntary murder (Genesis 4:10)
The sin of impurity against nature –Sodomy and homosexual relations (Genesis 18:20)
Taking advantage of the poor (Exodus 2:23)
Defrauding the workingman of his wages (James 5:4)

Finally, the capital sins are also considered grave matter. These sins are vices and are defined as contrary to the Christian virtues of holiness. They are pride, avarice, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony, and sloth (acedia).
saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html
Jesus speaks of Himself, son of Man, the stone that was to destroy the Roman Kingdom. It would appear that as of this writing the Kingdom of Rome had not yet been destroyed and the stone that would destroy it is the Son of Man…also an image from Daniel.
13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the **Son of man **came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Jesus refers to himself as Son of Man 80 times. It was caused Him to be condemned. In Matthew…
And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the** Son of man **sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.
The High priest too knew what Daniel was talking about…👍
 
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CopticChristian:
Hi CopticChristian;

I think I was able to find some additional information that I read along time ago and I have picked up some “newer” information, as well. Although I can’t find anything out on this one subject I will continue to look and gain some more insight to this:

First:

Isaac ben Judah Abrabanel:

Abrabanel primarily composed commentaries on the books of the Major and Minor Prophets. His exegetical writings are set against a richly-conceived backdrop of the Jewish historical and sociocultural experience, and it is often implied that his exegesis was sculpted with the purpose of giving hope to the Jews of Spain that the arrival of the Messiah was imminent in their days. This idea distinguished him from many other philosophers of the age, who did not rely as heavily on Messianic concepts. Abarbanel’s major peshat works are
Code:
Ma'yanei ha-Yeshu'ah (“The Wellsprings of Salvation" מעייני הישועה), which is a commentary on the Book of Daniel;
Yeshu'ot Meshiho (“The Salvation of His Anointed" ישועות משיחו), an interpretation of rabbinic literature about the Messiah; and
Mashmi'a Yeshu'ah (“Announcing Salvation" "משמיע ישועה" ), a commentary on the messianic prophecies in the prophetical books.
These three books are considered the separate parts of a larger work entitled “Migdal Yeshu’ot” (“Tower of Salvation” מגדל ישועות ).

Also, another thought: Four kingdoms of Daniel: wiki.ask.com/Four_kingdoms_of_Daniel

Some secular historians and certain critics would say that the Book of Daniel has little to no significance beyond its own contemporary historical setting. From some Christian and Jewish religious points of view, the relevance of the Book of Daniel to our own and future time is upheld. Idealists, and the advocates of Realized/Sapiential Eschatology, would say that the Book of Daniel is primarily historical, but also significant as godly instruction.

A summary of leading Christian readings of Daniel 7 is in the table in the Daniel 7 Appendix. Many scholars have held that Rome was the fourth beast; a few that the fourth beast was the Ptolemies and Seleucids. From the time of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, the ‘four monarchies’ model became widely used for universal history, in parallel with eschatology, among Protestants. There were still some defenders of its use in universal history in the early 18th century; but the periodization with a ‘Middle Age’ came in strongly from philology, with Christopher Cellarius, based on the distinctive nature of medieval Latin.[1] The modern historicist interpretations and eschatological views of the Book of Daniel with the Book of Revelation, closely resemble, and are a continuation of, some earlier historical Protestant interpretations.

and the last, St. Jerome, Commentary on Daniel (1958) Introduction. pp.1-13 tertullian.org/fathers/jerome_daniel_01_intro.htm

The one who attempts to give to the Christian Church a dependable translation of Jerome’s commentary on the Hebrew |9 text of Daniel must have a thorough mastery of Hebrew and Aramaic to understand the text from which Jerome worked, a comprehensive knowledge of the Greek language (for Jerome also made a careful study of the Septuagint) and must be able to read with unfaltering precision the Latin of that age, for it is in Latin that the work is written. That Dr. Gleason L. Archer, Professor of Biblical Languages in Fuller Theological Seminary, possesses such equipment will be acknowledged by all who give even the briefest consideration to this commentary now offered to the public. I trust that from this superb piece of Biblical scholarship many will be led to a new investigation of the whole, vast area, still not adequately explored, of the eschatological beliefs of the first five centuries of the Christian Church.

(However, reading through another site: What’s the truth about…Aramaic? by Ari Z. Zivotofsky) You’ll find the multi levels of the language that was used in the book of Daniel -
 
Continue:

I think this thread might start to connect with “Jewish thought about the Messiah” - because of the view from Jewish source as well as Christian sources. I ran into some on line forums (again) - and also read some additional thoughts about Daniel. As interesting as these discussions were - some believe that “this war” is heading us into some of Daniel’s predictions (“atchalta d’geula” and “ikvot d’mshicha”, the beginning of the redemption and the footsteps of the Messiah). I think the commentator to this verse was dead center. As others on the forum, and I’ve read some of the same discussions also on this forum, had mentioned more or less on calculating dates based off of Daniel’s prophecy. We’ve read how others, in scripture, had been off on calculating the dates to the redeemer of Israel in the Exodus (Moses) and with the Messiah (in Matthew). I still think/and in awe of… Anna, Simeon and the shepherd boy, who were the one’s who had witness the birth and presentation of the Messiah…

However, there were some posts that had indicted, and with the usage of Daniel’s passages,that the date to the coming of the Messiah have been sealed. “Many will run to and fro, and opinions shall be increased.” (Daniel 12:9).

Sorry for the long post - but I think this is a good topic.

Mary
 
Continue:

I think this thread might start to connect with “Jewish thought about the Messiah” - because of the view from Jewish source as well as Christian sources. I ran into some on line forums (again) - and also read some additional thoughts about Daniel. As interesting as these discussions were - some believe that “this war” is heading us into some of Daniel’s predictions (“atchalta d’geula” and “ikvot d’mshicha”, the beginning of the redemption and the footsteps of the Messiah). I think the commentator to this verse was dead center. As others on the forum, and I’ve read some of the same discussions also on this forum, had mentioned more or less on calculating dates based off of Daniel’s prophecy. We’ve read how others, in scripture, had been off on calculating the dates to the redeemer of Israel in the Exodus (Moses) and with the Messiah (in Matthew). I still think/and in awe of… Anna, Simeon and the shepherd boy, who were the one’s who had witness the birth and presentation of the Messiah…

However, there were some posts that had indicted, and with the usage of Daniel’s passages,that the date to the coming of the Messiah have been sealed. “Many will run to and fro, and opinions shall be increased.” (Daniel 12:9).

Sorry for the long post - but I think this is a good topic.

Mary
I am not sure where you are going with all of this. Concerning Isaac ben Judah Abrabanel, I have no knowledge of his interpretations however he is a Jew as I understand it and would be writing in the 14th century.

The entire dialogue is tied to some sort of Eschatology of which there are commonly 4. Which Eschatologic point of view are you heading for…?:eek:
 
Why the dearth of Catholics posting in this thread? It has been my experience that most of people who obsess over Daniel and the Apocalypse (revelation) are members of Seventh Day Adventistism.

These two books are Apocalytic literature, and are not meant as “fortune telling” prophecy.
 
I am not sure where you are going with all of this. Concerning Isaac ben Judah Abrabanel, I have no knowledge of his interpretations however he is a Jew as I understand it and would be writing in the 14th century.

The entire dialogue is tied to some sort of Eschatology of which there are commonly 4. Which Eschatologic point of view are you heading for…?:eek:
Neither, although we know that (and from the information posted from a on line website) that the first six chapters of Daniel were considered the most popular however, the book of Daniel (nevertheless…) is divided Daniel into 2 halves, Chapters 1 to 6 and Chapters 7 to 12. The first half is historical, the second half is apocalyptic or predictive because of the differences in the writing from the first six chapters - as the author is unknown, it is (also) considered as “apocalyptic literature” - which on a historical note, the Aramaic writing (and if you read the other website - which there are differences: Imperial Aramaic, Middle and Late) - so really, the information that being translated - is interesting history from back then.

Now, the breakdown of Daniel - from other sources listed, that being Chapters 7 - 12 and as we consider them to be as much of importance as Jewish sources, when reading about the salvation and the redemption, and the time of the Messiah. Our information really doesn’t differ - or do you think it does? One other thought into the mix - and one that has been discussed on other forum, Christian and Jewish is the calculation of the dates: “But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.” Daniel 12:4.

There are predictions within each source: There are four major principles of interpretation that were used in the LXX and Abarbanel’s major peshat works…

So you ask? Which source? There isn’t a real difference…what I am saying and even discussing about the nations and kingdoms (with the first post - leading) how can one really understand - until when the time arrives…
 
Why the dearth of Catholics posting in this thread? It has been my experience that most of people who obsess over Daniel and the Apocalypse (revelation) are members of Seventh Day Adventistism.

These two books are Apocalytic literature, and are not meant as “fortune telling” prophecy.
No one is obsessing over Daniel - and if you have the time, read, Did St Jerome reject the Deuterocanoical books? Posted by Dr. Taylor Marshall.
 
I am not sure where you are going with all of this. Concerning Isaac ben Judah Abrabanel, I have no knowledge of his interpretations however he is a Jew as I understand it and would be writing in the 14th century.

The entire dialogue is tied to some sort of Eschatology of which there are commonly 4. Which Eschatologic point of view are you heading for…?:eek:
I hope that you are keeping me on my toes - and heels…lol, if so - thank you
 
OK, I am still a wee bit confused, at first I thought the majority here are 7th Day Adventists. But we have some who at least seem to be Catholic.

(hint,
it would be useful if everyone filled in their religious preferance)

I used to read on Ship of Fools in the SDA section and it really seemed that the SDAs obsessed over two books, Daniel and the Apocalypse (sp). And the end of the world. Their founder a Mr Miller set several dates and was disspointed each time when Jesus failed to show up. His followers sold their possesions and waited on roof tops for Jesus.

After the great disspointment they were taken over by a woman named Ellen White. Ellen was a self proclaimed “prophet” and her writings are considered by SDAs as equally inspired as the bible.

The SDAs take all biblical prophecy as future prediction, they have “prophecy seminars” not using the name SDA attempting to proseletize Catholics and others out off their churches and into the SDA. They have been remarkably sucessful with poorly chatechised Catholics.

SDAs use the books of Daniel and Revalation to hate the Catholic church. They call our Holy Father the “whore of babylon” and sunday worship “the beast”.

They are the worst anti Catholics to exist.

And this is who I thought I was debating with.

Sorry forn the confusion, and agian it is really helpfull to fill in your religious preferance when you register for CA.
 
Just because we’re Catholics, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t believe in any Biblical prophecy. Jesus is the fulfillment of all prophecy, but as far as I know, the world hasn’t ended yet. Neither has every prophecy related to Jesus been fulfilled, at this point in time. So, why should it be a surprise that Catholics would discuss it? We might not have the same interpretations as non-Catholics, or even other Catholics, but that doesn’t mean we should just ignore the whole subject. Even Jesus made prophecies that are yet to happen. 🤷
 
Just because we’re Catholics, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t believe in any Biblical prophecy. Jesus is the fulfillment of all prophecy, but as far as I know, the world hasn’t ended yet. Neither has every prophecy related to Jesus been fulfilled, at this point in time. So, why should it be a surprise that Catholics would discuss it? We might not have the same interpretations as non-Catholics, or even other Catholics, but that doesn’t mean we should just ignore the whole subject. Even Jesus made prophecies that are yet to happen. 🤷
True at least mostly. But I do not think that all prophecy consists of future prediction. The prophets like for example Amos have little to do with predicting the future. Thier is a lot of morality in the prophets as well.

And of course there
is no need to take it all literally.

Just my opinion as a Catholic.
 
OK, I am still a wee bit confused, at first I thought the majority here are 7th Day Adventists. But we have some who at least seem to be Catholic.

(hint,
it would be useful if everyone filled in their religious preferance)

I used to read on Ship of Fools in the SDA section and it really seemed that the SDAs obsessed over two books, Daniel and the Apocalypse (sp). And the end of the world. Their founder a Mr Miller set several dates and was disspointed each time when Jesus failed to show up. His followers sold their possesions and waited on roof tops for Jesus.

After the great disspointment they were taken over by a woman named Ellen White. Ellen was a self proclaimed “prophet” and her writings are considered by SDAs as equally inspired as the bible.

The SDAs take all biblical prophecy as future prediction, they have “prophecy seminars” not using the name SDA attempting to proseletize Catholics and others out off their churches and into the SDA. They have been remarkably sucessful with poorly chatechised Catholics.

SDAs use the books of Daniel and Revalation to hate the Catholic church. They call our Holy Father the “whore of babylon” and sunday worship “the beast”.

They are the worst anti Catholics to exist.

And this is who I thought I was debating with.

Sorry forn the confusion, and agian it is really helpfull to fill in your religious preferance when you register for CA.
Hi andrewstx;

I will fill in my denomination - however, I do agree with you on the “false” predictions and also I was underneath the same “thought” when this thread was posted. You know, and I really have to say/write this - making attempts to predict “who” the little horn in Daniel is referring to, and again - attempts, only causes “Mega” conflicts between denominations.

The point being is that “one” can not even predict the date of the Messiah - and even according to Daniel’s prophecy, the date has been sealed. Even Christ, himself knew that the only one who would know about the end of days, was God, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

another point I have to make, if one would only read and compare some of the writings from the Vatican - and I’ve done that more recently, we are in alignment with Scriptural teaching (and very much so…). I have recently found some very good priest/theologians/scholars - who have a incredible gift for bringing out passages and giving their thoughts.

Last point, revelations - and this is just a thought, means book’s of hidden meaning or the act of revealing secrets (The term “revelation” comes from the Greek word apokalupsis, which means “a disclosure” or “an unveiling.”) - there are many who would attribute this to the mysticism of religion - in various other religions, “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.” A thought to this - would be, in Luke and the day Christ was born - God first"revealed" the Messiah’s birth to the shepherds, and Magi - later to Anna and Simeon but going farther back - when Mary approached Elizabeth, Elizabeth prophesied - and “in” a “loud” voice said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? " - so Elizabeth was aware of “who” the child was in Mary’s womb.

Revealing of secrets - God chooses who he wants to reveal them to…and like Jesus said - during his ministry, "John 6:65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”
 
Just because we’re Catholics, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t believe in any Biblical prophecy. Jesus is the fulfillment of all prophecy, but as far as I know, the world hasn’t ended yet. Neither has every prophecy related to Jesus been fulfilled, at this point in time. So, why should it be a surprise that Catholics would discuss it? We might not have the same interpretations as non-Catholics, or even other Catholics, but that doesn’t mean we should just ignore the whole subject. Even Jesus made prophecies that are yet to happen. 🤷
Right.
 
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