Book of Enoch?

[MorningSong51]

Good evening, everyone!

I happened to listen to a recent Catholic Answers radio broadcast, and they briefly talked about this topic. The call starts at 32:51 of this program. Tim Staples comes back to it again at 43:25.

MorningSong! Good evening, Mary!

I hope you are doing well.

I had written that the author was wrong in saying that Jerome and Augustine had met. You responded by saying that you “don’t think that the author said that they did.” But take another look at what he wrote:

“Jerome and Augustine failed in getting the council to vote that Enoch was uninspired… so they forced a vote to make the council choose between the book of Revelation, and the Book of Enoch. The council voted for the book of Revelation.”

What council is he talking about? What council did Jerome and Augustine both attend whereat “they forced a vote to make the council choose between the book of Revelation, and the Book of Enoch”? This is an astonishing claim and I am saying that it never happened.

You wrote,

“and the additional website information, was given for others to view/read about the process of how certain books/writing become canonical”

Leaving other things aside, why did you ask me to read what you referred to as, “treatise De fide et symbols,” in particular? I think you copied this title from another website and that you are not familiar with the contents of the actual work being referred to. Is this true? I hate to be suspicious of your character, Mary, but please guard yourself against trying to look more knowledgeable than you are on a subject. It can be pride that makes us do this, or it could be our being too loose with the truth. I get the feeling that you are doing Internet searches for keywords and just quoting from and linking to anything that might be related in order to have something to say, and to give the impression of a breadth of familiarity on the topic, but without grasping the material. I am sorry if I am judging you too harshly, but I want us to be able to give an effective witness to the truth for our non Catholic brothers and sisters who come here looking for answers and for a faithful witness to our Savior.

You also wrote,

“Revelations was accepted into the canon at the Council of Carthage of 397 AD. …] Revelation’s place in the canon was not guaranteed, however, with doubts raised as far back as the 2nd century about its character, symbolism, and apostolic authorship.”

These sentences actually come from one of these two sources (or perhaps from elsewhere):

ujest.com/book_of_revelation/encyclopedia.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation

As I mentioned in a previous post, you’ll want to be careful to take the time to cite your sources so that we don’t give room for accusations of plagiarism. Please take the time.

And please forgive me if what I’ve said has hurt you. It is the wound of a clumsy friend who really loves you in Christ.

In Christ,
Pete

Hi Pete,

How’s it going? … since I can’t print my post along side yours, due to the number of words - I’m going to use another post.

 

[MorningSong51]

From Pete: Good evening, everyone!

Hi Pete – I’m not going to address this post to everyone other than to you and in a personable way. I feel that this post is addressing some issues that you’re bringing to my attention, and the issue is about misinformation that I gave to this group – and to yourself. Unfortunately, the information that was passed onto you made you search out to other sources, my apologizes to you. But, Pete, half of what I do for 8 hours a day,and also get paid, is to look through various work sites to give out information - accurately. We have a quality assurance department who listens to every call to ensure that I am cohesively following policies set forth…or else I would be fired.

Now, you and I both know how detrimental that information can be in a work environment and how accurate it has to be – right? At work, they don’t rebuke, Pete – they teach and also show us/me where to fine the correct information. The information that was given out wasn’t too monumental – or cause for termination. So what do you think we should do? You know my favorite apostles are Peter and Paul – Pillar of Fire and the Pillar of Truth – isn’t that a fitting title for the both of them…

I’m going to give you some information about a particular – symbol and you tell me if you can figure this out? It has a lot to do with the book of Enoch and Revelation’s, O.K?
The symbol is a circle – the time on the clock is listed at 3:00 (not listing am or pm) in the center of the circle is someone standing within the circle and the room is moving counterclockwise , not clockwise. The person moves slowly in the direction of the room wearing a crown – kingly dressed. Standing outside of the circle – another person stood, unnoticeable to this person they watched on – as the person within the circles moves around the within the center of the circle…

This is a lot of what the book of Enoch is about and that is, alsoo what the book of revelations is about– the symbols and meanings of time, the meaning of the direction. Some statements in the book of revelations reads as follows, “12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,[d] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.”

Agruments:

Arguments against its authenticity:

“During the fourth and fifth centuries the tendency to exclude the Apocalypse from the list of sacred books continued to increase in the Syro-Palestinian churches. Eusebius expresses no definite opinion. He contents himself with the statement: “The Apocalypse is by some accepted among the canonical books but by others rejected” (Church History III.25). St. Cyril of Jerusalem does not name it among the canonical books (Catechesis IV.33-36); nor does it occur on the list of the Synod of Laodicea, or on that of Gregory of Nazianzus. Perhaps the most telling argument against the apostolic authorship of the book is its omission from the Peshito, the Syrian Vulgate. But although the authorities giving evidence against the authenticity of the Apocalypse deserve full consideration they cannot annul or impair the older and unanimous testimony of the churches. The opinion of its opponents, moreover, was not free from bias. From the manner in which Dionysius argued the question, it is evident that he thought the book dangerous as occasioning crude and sensual notions concerning the resurrection. In the West the Church persevered in its tradition of apostolic authorship. St. Jerome alone seemed to have been influenced by the doubts of the East.”

Skip…Apocalypse: newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm

“It would appear, and is so held by many that the Christians of the Apostolic age expected that Christ would return during their own lifetime or generation. This seems to be the more obvious meaning of several passages both in the Epistles and Gospels (cf. John 21:21-23, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). The Christians of Asia Minor and the Seer with them, appear to have shared this fallacious expectation. Their mistaken hope, however, did not affect the soundness of their belief in the essential part of the dogma. Their views of a millennial period of corporal happiness were equally erroneous. The Church has wholly cast aside the doctrine of a millennium previous to the resurrection. St. Augustine has perhaps more than any one else helped to free the Church from all crude fancies as regards its pleasures. He explained the millennium allegorically and applied it to the Church of Christ on earth. With the foundation of the Church the millennium began. The first resurrection is the spiritual resurrection of the soul from sin (City of God XX). Thus the number 1,000 is to be taken indefinitely.”

Same arguments were listed on the book of Enoch…

Blessings,
Mary

 

[MorningSong51]

Originally Posted by Pete: And please forgive me if what I’ve said has hurt you. It is the wound of a clumsy friend who really loves you in Christ.

I haven’t doubted that and I thank you for taking the time to continue this topic. If I have offended you in any way, please forgive me and keep in me in your prayers and thoughts. I’m not a returning Catholic but someone who has been attending church for many years and also one who loves to sit and pray at church - when able. On the weekends, I like to take some private time to read books and scripture. However, I have to remember the teachings of the church - its like a second wind but I’m enjoying every moment of it and more than you and others think. Right now I’m reading Pope Benedict XVI book, “Church Fathers and Teachers” and found a couple favorites teachers, theologian - Symeon the New Theologian, as he quotes, “Indeed, if we are rightly concerned to care for our physical, human, and intellectual development, it is even more important not to neglect our inner growth, which consists in the knowledge of God, in true knowledge, learned not only from books but from within and in communion with God, to experience his help at every moment and in every circumstance.” and the other, Saint Peter Damian, “to know how to make silence within us to listen to God’s voice, to seek, as it were, a “parlor” in which God speaks with us: learning the Word of God in prayer and in meditation is the path to life.”

Also, there were times that the information I want to remember slipped my mind and I had to go looking for it - as there are some good websites on these topics, however, and like you said, you really have to make sure that they are accurate about the church fathers - and teachers. Awhile back, I had retrieved some very good Catholic websites, years ago, but then I had changed computers so I didn’t have them available - these website were wonderful! The blog came from Concordia University and Loyola College - I found the website after listening to a speaker on the Catholic Radio channel - Which now I can’t remember his name, David …, he taught Jewish Studies - so I found some of his books, he was an excellent speaker (also) about church history - so I do listen to the Catholic channel often. This week, I (also) went through (again, and like you) the Catholic Radio Station to pull some tapes, as I kept thinking was it in April, May or June and also was it 2009 or 2010? - so I feel your pain on pulling the tapes out of the dungeon. Pete, I had been recently diagnosed with glaucoma so the headaches and eyes are painful at times, there are times that I need to stop reading and rest my eyes - so if I don’t get back on line to answer back, it either that I really busy or I have rest a little bit.

I feel that I am being encouraged, and I know it our Lord who give me the incentive to learn and to understand him - in order to follow him, as I hope this makes sense. Honestly, I stumble through history and sometimes I have a tendency to forget - and I have to look the information up. So - my apologies to all.

Blessing
Mary

 

[Pete_Holter]

Hi Mary!

Your response was very humble and gracious. Thank you for being here with us.

I will remember to confess the way I approached you on this at my next participation in the sacrament of reconciliation, in case I hurt you in any way. And I hope that you will forgive me. I hope that you do feel encouraged. I hope you have a blessed day, my sister!

With love in Christ,
Pete

 

[MorningSong51]

Hi Mary!

Your response was very humble and gracious. Thank you for being here with us.

I will remember to confess the way I approached you on this at my next participation in the sacrament of reconciliation, in case I hurt you in any way. And I hope that you will forgive me. I hope that you do feel encouraged. I hope you have a blessed day, my sister!

With love in Christ,
Pete

Thank you Pete - and yes, Our Lord continually sends me encouragement and comfort through others. (“Thou has formed us for Thyself, and our hearts are restless till they find rest in Thee.”—Confessions, i. 1.)

What can I say - I’ll be the next person who goes into the confessional, and after you. I know that apart of us must die everyday to this world but we know that we will arise with Christ who brings life to our soul (so we are raised from the death of sin), as scripture says, “6 “The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up.” Everyday we are being transformed into the person that he wants us to be - and that isn’t an easy task. Much like any relationship - we are uniting together in our relationship with Christ. Sometimes, not always, we might struggle/fight within ourselves in that transformation - good fighting the bad parts of us. I’ve felt that more this week, so that’s when I needed to be a little silent in prayer. So you’re not really alone when it comes to the confessional - my mother use to say that we fall as Christ did holding the cross so we must strengthen ourselves with his help - sort of speak to carry our cross. Yet, I have a tendency to think that its ourselves that are being challenged but with Christ’s help, what seems to be the hardest thing to achieve, is made more clearer and complete with his help -so that’s what I tell him in prayer, “You have to help me because it’s too difficult” - and from scripture, its the man who has obeyed all the laws - but the hardest law to follow was the come follow me. Jesus said “With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.” - so I lean on his help and guidance through the most difficult times.

Much Love & Blessings brother - always! You were a blessing today from our Lord!
Mary