Book of Mormon and honey bees

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But if you really have faith, how can you ignore the theological explanation? How can you simply disregard the faith of the Bible and the Early Church Fathers? How is that reasonable? .
Come on now as Catholics and Christians we do it everyday, the Old Testament clearly states that “besides me their is no savior” several times.

Isaiah 43:

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. 11 “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me”

Of course to us we believe Christ is speaking here as part of the Trinity. But to a Jew it seems like clear cut proof of Christianities fraud.
 
I don’t understand why people are so judgmental of Mormonism, as a Catholic I have to believe 100 seemingly impossible things every morning just to maintain my faith.
And when I hear Catholics throw stones at Joseph Smith and Mormonism’s past I cringe. I wonder if these folks have ever read a thing about the Catholic Churches past.
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I don’t understand why people are so judgmental of Mormonism, as a Catholic I have to believe 100 seemingly impossible things every morning just to maintain my faith.
Judgemental of Mormonism? It could be because thier religion is a bit strange.🤷 If some on here are alittle critical it might be because we are defending God’s church .😉

And when I hear Catholics throw stones at Joseph Smith and Mormonism’s past I cringe. I wonder if these folks have ever read a thing about the Catholic Churches past.

Why would you cringe at Joseph Smith’s past? It is how his church started its Mormon history.

We all make our own decisions in life, I have my faith you have yours. I see no reason to endure the back and forth when neither is changing their minds.

All of us are defending our faith and remember we don’t force the Mormon’s to be here on a Catholic forum. I just hope and pray that some Mormon’s will actually “hear” and " listen"to God’s words here and search for themselves.

But of course it is a message board and that’s the point fo them right?
👍
 
“…All of us are defending our faith and remember we don’t force the Mormon’s to be here on a Catholic forum…”

When you say that “All of us are defending our faith”, are you saying that you feel that LDS are stretching the facts and misinterpreting what you actually believe, and that you feel the need to set out a defence to set the record straight, by pointing out what your beliefs are, and how they have been distorted?

Paul
 
“…All of us are defending our faith and remember we don’t force the Mormon’s to be here on a Catholic forum…”

When you say that “All of us are defending our faith”, are you saying that you feel that LDS are stretching the facts and misinterpreting what you actually believe, and that you feel the need to set out a defence to set the record straight, by pointing out what your beliefs are, and how they have been distorted?

🙂 I ment that people here are defending there faith according to thier own beliefs and what they have been taught. I don’t think anyone here LDS or Catholic is distorting or stretching anything.

Paul
 
I ment that people here are defending there faith according to thier own beliefs and what they have been taught. I don’t think anyone here LDS or Catholic is distorting or stretching anything.
I think that is true for the most part. The reason I asked is that, to my way of thinking, to defend a faith there usually is an explanation of it some where. Instead, what I am reading in many cases are objections to the LDS faith and little explanation of the Catholic position. By all means voice your concerns about LDS belief, and it would be helpful and more interesting, for me at least, if an explanation of Catholic thought on the same issues could be brought forward.

Paul
 
Paul,

I’m not sure I’m getting your first paragraph. Could you please rephrase or elaborate for me?
From Post 62

Sure, I shouldn’t try to write when I’m tried. I guess what I was trying to get at is, that we know a lot about real places that are mentioned in the Bible. We know where they are, we have done archaeological studies of these places, and we can place geographically, the stories found in the bible. The reason we can do this is that there has been a consistent transfer of culture and language from one generation to the next in the Biblical lands.

The language has not been lost because of extinction of the people; we still understand and can translate Hebrew and Greek. Many cities still bear the same name as in Biblical times. However, if the Jewish people had just disappeared with not one soul remaining, with none of the people who replaced them having any knowledge who the Jews were, I believe that even though we possessed writings of the Jews we would have no understanding of them, their cities, or culture. I can think of a couple of examples that might bare this idea out.

Take for example the colour “tekhelet”, it is a very important part of Jewish religious practice, even to this day. However, the production of real tekhelet has been lost, because the species of marine animal from which this colour was produced is no longer known - It was called a “chilazon”. Because the Romans outlawed the production of tekhelet, in time people forgot what the chilazon was. In recent times there has been considerable research as to the identity of this animal, some have been investigated, but there has been no agreement as to which animal meets the description, which was given 2000 years ago, of this animal. There has been a break in the transfer of this information from one generation to the next, with the result that a sure knowledge of this animal was lost to history.

Another example is Egyptian hieroglyphic writing, it was still understood at the time of Jesus, but sometime after, all understanding was lost as the culture was overwhelmed and replaced by others. That Great body of Egyptian history was a blank to us until a key stone was found which enabled the translation of the hieroglyphics.

These two examples may explain the lack of understandable evidence about the geography of the Book of Mormon. In the generations after the Book of Mormon record a similar break in the transfer of culture and linguistic information from one generation to the next has occurred. Archaeologists suggest that only a small portion of writings and cities have been uncovered and documented, it appears there is much yet to understand, learn and discover about the Book of Mormon lands.

I do not believe that these examples justify anything about the historicity Book of Mormon; however, it does give possible explanations as to the lack of, as some here put it, any real evidence. It is my opinion, there is too much argument surrounding things like honey bees and not enough attention to the treasure of lessons to be found in the Book of Mormon itself.

Paul
 
which still does nothing to support the BoM account of jaredites bringing old world bees over here.
 
Ha, ha, don’t worry, I haven’t started my “I told you so!” dance yet. (for all you guys who watch Scrubs)
 
which still does nothing to support the BoM account of jaredites bringing old world bees over here.
I think the bees imported by the Jaredites were introduced into a limited geography, mixed into a native population, and can no longer be identified as Hebrew bees. 😉

No, seriously folks. My belief in either the Bible or Book of Mormon is independent of these types of evidence or lack thereof. It’s all about the doctrine. I agree with Paul G. A discussion of the doctrine is much more productive and interesting.
 
okay that was funny too. 😃

feel free to start a thread on what you perceive to be a unique doctrine found only in the BoM
 
I think the bees imported by the Jaredites were introduced into a limited geography, mixed into a native population, and can no longer be identified as Hebrew bees. 😉

No, seriously folks. My belief in either the Bible or Book of Mormon is independent of these types of evidence or lack thereof. It’s all about the doctrine. I agree with Paul G. A discussion of the doctrine is much more productive and interesting.
The “doctrine” in the BoM is just a bunch of 1800’s Protestant tent-revival camp-meeting sermons worked into a very implausable story and couched in really bad pseudo-King-James english to sound vaguely “scriptural”. There is nothing remotely original or unique about it.

The authors (Rigdon and perhaps Cowdery) knew that the best way to become a leader is to find a crowd that’s going somewhere and get in front of it. That’s why the BoM says what all the dispensationalists already believed and wished the bible said.

If you just allow yourself to look objectively at the BoM for a few minutes, you will realize that it is just a 19th century work of fiction.

God love you,
Paul
 
If you just allow yourself to look objectively at the BoM for a few minutes, you will realize that it is just a 19th century work of fiction.
And a copy of the original novel [a work of FICTION] without the Isaiah ripoffs from the KJV (from Oberlin College, I think) is posted on line.

I always get a kick listening to mormons twist and turn language into pretzel logic whenever I ask (and show them) about the many changes to that ‘perfectly translated’ text they claim is from a god.

Robert
 
And a copy of the original novel [a work of FICTION] without the Isaiah ripoffs from the KJV (from Oberlin College, I think) is posted on line.

I always get a kick listening to mormons twist and turn language into pretzel logic whenever I ask (and show them) about the many changes to that ‘perfectly translated’ text they claim is from a god.

Robert
It may seem like pretzel logic, when you’re only used to sour dough.

Paul
 
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