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BartBurk
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Has anyone signed up for your $395 course to become a Book of Mormon Christian minister?
tbom.org/course.htm
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tbom.org/course.htm
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why_me
Guest
Here you go…
mormanity.blogspot.com/2005/05/changes-in-doctrine-covenants-book-of.html
Jeremiah, for example, made editorial additions in a second version of his writings. See Jeremiah 36, where we learn that Baruch wrote all the words from Jeremiah that were recorded in a book (vss. 4, 17, 18) Unfortunately, King Jehoiakim of Judah burned the book that contained the words of Jeremiah (vss. 21-25). The Lord commanded Jeremiah to prepare his document again, writing “all the former words that were in the first roll” (vs. 28). In verse 32, Jeremiah then commanded his scribe, Baruch, to write on another roll the words of Jeremiah, “and there were added besides unto them many like words.” Many like words added? This doesn’t sound like original dictation straight from the mouth of God, perfectly preserved and unchangeable. Prophets speak or dictate by inspiration, but there can be later changes and additions. I have no problem with Joseph Smith doing the same. The fact that there has been significant editing of the Bible is no reason to throw it out. Same for the Book of Commandments
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BartBurk
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There is nothing in the Bible that indicates Baruch actually changed the meaning of what God had originally inspired. The Doctrine and Covenants says the exact opposite of what God supposedly had originally told Joseph Smith about Joseph’s mission as written in the Book of Commandments. This is a huge difference from what you are citing in the Old Testament.
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BOMC
Guest
First: TBOM existed before Joseph Smith started a church, or established a priesthood of twelve apostles.
Second: Neither his church structure or priesthood are found in TBOM.
Third: There is not a single command by God for Joseph to start a church.
Fourth: The “restitution of all things” verse does not apply to priesthood or to church. The law of Moses was fulfilled in Christ our Lord, he being the last high priest.
Those things which were preparatory to Christ will not return, i.e. high priest’s and priesthood. Thus, they are not found in the NT or BoM post Jesus.
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BartBurk
Guest
If a person really believes in the Book of Mormon and understands the problems with LDS history, yours is the only position that makes sense.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Oh yay, more Mormons who are making up their own religion. This one, I have to admit, is clearly thinking outside of the box.
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zerinus
Guest
The Book of Mormon was the beginning of the process of the Restoration. It deos not mean that nothing else was to follow after it.
It is! The Nephites had a “church” established among them (following the ministry of Christ) which is mentioned in the Book of Mormon:
3 Nephi 26:
21 And they who were baptized in the name of Jesus were called the church of Christ.
3 Nephi 27:
3 And they said unto him: Lord, we will that thou wouldst tell us the name whereby we shall call this church; for there are disputations among the people concerning this matter.
7 Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake.
10 And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it.
4 Nephi 1:
1 And it came to pass that . . . the disciples of Jesus had formed a church of Christ in all the lands round about.
They also had false churches among them, as well as true ones:
4 Nephi 1:
26 And they began to be divided into classes; and they began to build up churches unto themselves to get gain, and began to deny the true church of Christ.
4 Nephi 1:
41 And they did still continue to build up churches unto themselves, and adorn them with all manner of precious things.
And at one time when they had all become very wicked, and lost the true church of Christ, God commanded them that if they would build His church among them once more, that they would be saved from destruction:
Mormon 3:
2 And it came to pass that the Lord did say unto me: Cry unto this people—Repent ye, and come unto me, and be ye baptized, and build up again my church, and ye shall be spared.
And their churches had both organizational structure as well as priesthood, which are mentioned in the Book of Mormon:
3 Nephi 18:
5 And when the multitude had eaten and were filled, he said unto the Disciples: Behold there shall one be ordained among you, and to him will I give power that he shall break bread and bless it and give it unto the people of my church, unto all those who shall believe and be baptized in my name.
Moroni 3:
1 The manner which the disciples, who were called the elders of the church, ordained priests and teachers
Moroni 4:
1 The manner of their elders and priests administering the flesh and blood of Christ unto the church; and they administered it according to the commandments of Christ; wherefore we know the manner to be true; and the elder or priest did minister it
2 And they did kneel down with the church, and pray to the Father in the name of Christ, saying
Moroni 6:
4 And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith.
Moroni 6:
9 And their meetings were conducted by the church after the manner of the workings of the Spirit, and by the power of the Holy Ghost; for as the power of the Holy Ghost led them whether to preach, or to exhort, or to pray, or to supplicate, or to sing, even so it was done.
(See further Moroni chapters 3, 4, and 6 for the role of the priesthood.) Furthermore, the Lord in the Book Mormon prophesies that in the last days when the Book of Mormon will come forth among the Gentiles, that He will establish His Church among them:
3 Nephi 21:
22 But if they * will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them*.
So it looks like you got that awfully worng!
: There is not a single command by God for Joseph to start a church.
Commandment where? In the Doctrine and Covenants there are plenty. If you are referring to the Book of Mormon, there is not supposed to be, because the Book of Mormon was not addressed to Joseph Smith. But indirectly there is, as shown in 3 Nephi 21:22 quoted above.
: The “restitution of all things” verse does not apply to priesthood or to church. The law of Moses was fulfilled in Christ our Lord, he being the last high priest.
Those things which were preparatory to Christ will not return, i.e. high priest’s and priesthood. Thus, they are not found in the NT or BoM post Jesus.
All will return! The priesthood bestowed on Aaron and his discendents was eternal, and meant to last forever (Exodus 40:15; Numbers 25:13). They were not done away.
zerinus
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BOMC
Guest
On the contrary, this is what it says:
- It contains the “fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ.”
- Was to restore many “plain and precious” things.
I said like the “structure” of Joseph’s church, not just “church.”
Joseph’s followers brag about the calling of twelve “apostles” and use it as proof of their “only true church.” In fact, there were no apostles in TBOM - period.
No priesthood was ever mentioned by Jesus, and was not mentioned by anyone after him. The biggest evidence that its purpose was over is the absence of high priests after Jesus.
The following verse characterizes anything but a meeting at one of Joseph’s churches. Why would you cite it?
Next,
If you look around, you will see many churches like that in TBOM - with no high priests - no twelves apostles - and no “prophets” called by man.
Show me a verse from the D&C that says Joseph was to start a church.
That was an expression, that’s all:
“Their generations” ended with Jesus.
That was the role of priesthood, it accommodated the priests in their office to atone for the people until Jesus arrived. You will notice in TBOM that Jesus ended all of that:
Notice, Jesus paid for all sin, and the role of priest and high priest ended.
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BOMC
Guest
Really? Did you read that at the web site?
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BOMC
Guest
Thanks.
People are beginning to see that weird Mormon teachings are not in it, nor were they derived from it.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
no.
Mormons firing up their own religion is as common as dirt. Most do, in their heads. A few actually make the break and create what has been going on their head.
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mfbukowski
Guest
What is your background and how did you decide the BOM is scripture? Were you LDS?
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mfbukowski
Guest
So this is supposedly the Levitical priesthood when there were no Levites among the Nephites?
What priesthood is mentioned then? How did they have the authority?
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why_me
Guest
Actually no. The revised version of the doctrine and covenants came out in 1835. It took years for it to do so. Joseph did not decide to do this alone. Rather a church committee was formed and leading members at that time began their work on the new revised and expanded version of the D&C. Oliver Cowdery and Sidney Rigdon played a leading role in the expanded and revised version but they were not alone. In 1834, the Kirkland High Council gave the task of 'correcting the revelations to a committee composed of Cowdery and the First Presidency. (See Bushman in Rough Stone Rolling page 282).
According to Bushman, ‘The 1835 D&C was meant to summarize the Church’s major beliefs and provide a handbook of its polices. Joseph Smith’s role in receiving the revelations was played down’. See page 282.
It was on August 17th 1835 that Sidney Rigdon and Oliver Cowdery presented the D&C to the general assmbly. Joseph was away at the time. See Bushman page 284.
Hardly what you claimed in your post. Poor Sidney played a major role in the revised and expanded version. No rolling required.
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why_me
Guest
Hardly, as you can see, good ol’ Bart got it wrong about the D&C. At times this happens among former members or critics. Inside the mormon faith there is always a good explanation if one searches for it.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Excuses is what I see, at best. Shell and ball game, really, more often.
You have to flatten the world in order to buy what Mormonism is selling.
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BOMC
Guest
Was raised LDS. Received a witness of The Book at the age of 18, served a mission and witnessed its power many times over. Stopped attending two decades ago because of TBOM.
It was and still is a shock for LDS members to hear our response as to why we don’t attend - “LDS don’t follow TBOM.”
We have been trying to educate the world regarding what TBOM is and is not. Btw, we respect the early revelations that have to do with TBOM, but that’s all.
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BartBurk
Guest
I knew all of that already, but he still got rolled. Originally, Joseph was meant to be the translator of the Book of Mormon and nothing else. Rigdon was going to take over after that. But Joseph usurped his role. Just because some committee validated his usurpation doesn’t change the facts. The revelations were changed to solidify Joseph Smith and his “priesthood.” There were also major changes made in the role of priesthood in these revisions. God was pretty confused so they needed to have revelation by committee apparently. Come up with all of the excuses you want, the changes in the Doctrine and Covenants show Joseph was making it up as he went along (with the help of Rigdon and Cowdrey). Turned out Rigdon wasn’t near as charismatic as Joseph so he could never take control except through use of Joseph as leader. He got rolled then and in 1844 as well.Actually no. The revised version of the doctrine and covenants came out in 1835. It took years for it to do so. Joseph did not decide to do this alone. Rather a church committee was formed and leading members at that time began their work on the new revised and expanded version of the D&C. Oliver Cowdery and Sidney Rigdon played a leading role in the expanded and revised version but they were not alone. In 1834, the Kirkland High Council gave the task of 'correcting the revelations to a committee composed of Cowdery and the First Presidency. (See Bushman in Rough Stone Rolling page 282).
According to Bushman, ‘The 1835 D&C was meant to summarize the Church’s major beliefs and provide a handbook of its polices. Joseph Smith’s role in receiving the revelations was played down’. See page 282.
It was on August 17th 1835 that Sidney Rigdon and Oliver Cowdery presented the D&C to the general assmbly. Joseph was away at the time. See Bushman page 284.
Hardly what you claimed in your post. Poor Sidney played a major role in the revised and expanded version. No rolling required.
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zerinus
Guest
“Fullness” here means doctrinal fullness. It means fullness of teachings. That teaching includes information about the ecclesiastical structure of the church, including priesthood and priestly offices.
It does suggest a structure. It may not be identical to the structure of present day LDS Church—and need not be so. The main thing is that it does suggest both priesthood and an ecclesiastical structure. That is what matters, as far as your argument is concerned.
Of course there were. The Book of Mormon recognizes the authority of the Twelve Apostles of Christ in the Western Hemisphere as having spiritual authority over the entire global church of Christ; and it also ordains Twelve Disciples who had jurisdiction exclusively over the church among the Nephites. Their ministry was perpetual. When one died, another was chosen to succeed him.
That is not true. How can you folks claim to be so knowledgeable about the Book of Mormon, and not know that? Here are some quotes:
Moroni 3:
1 The manner which the disciples, who were called the elders of the church, ordained priests and teachers
3 In the name of Jesus Christ I ordain you to be a priest, (or, if he be a teacher) I ordain you to be a teacher, to preach repentance and remission of sins through Jesus Christ, by the endurance of faith on his name to the end. Amen.
4 And after this manner did they ordain priests and teachers, according to the gifts and callings of God unto men; and they ordained them by the power of the Holy Ghost, which was in them.
Moroni 4:
1 The manner of their elders and priests administering the flesh and blood of Christ unto the church; and they administered it according to the commandments of Christ; wherefore we know the manner to be true; and the elder or priest did minister it
Moroni 6:
1 And now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it.
The general principles they outline (teaching, preaching, and blessing the Sacrament) are the same. The details are not important.
Except that the Book of Mormon Church had priests. See above.
They had the Twelve Disciples, which were equavilent.
They had prophets who were called of God, and so does the LDS Church.
Glad to!
D&C 1:
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually
D&C 5:
14 And to none else will I grant this power, to receive this same testimony among this generation, in this the beginning of the rising up and the coming forth of my church out of the wilderness—clear as the moon, and fair as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners.
D&C 10:
53 And for this cause have I said: If this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them.
D&C 18:
5 Wherefore, if you shall build up my church, upon the foundation of my gospel and my rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.
See also D&C 20:1-4.
The expression says, and means, everlasting, eternal.
Their “generation” continues on until today.
So how come Moroni talks about “priests” in the church after Christ?
The role of the high priests to offer scarifies ended, not the role of the high priests altogether.
zerinus
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RWMorris
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?!?No Revelation!?!
I wasted 10 minutes reading that ridiculous site. These unenlightened folk don’t even understand the Book of Revelation. They think it’s about the rapture, about the end times! It is about ALL time, without beginning and without end. They don’t realize that God “Revels” himself in every Mass; Jesus returns to us, physically, in every Mass. We live the Book of Revelation every time we participate in Mass.
No Revelation = No Mass!
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