Book of Mormon Evidences

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Marc1152 said:
If you say so. Take you best shot… Please note that the Mormon tone of debate is far harsher than the posts from Christians as evidenced above.

I think people are attracted to Mormonism to gain the warm fuzzes that come from being part of a community. I don’t thing the “Informing” part is the key. I doubt very much that people read their way into Mormonism.

For example, in the Eastern Church ( and the Roman Church too I am certain) whenever a person comes to us with the “Apostate” slander, we enjoy that conversation very much . Those who make it are just repeating a myth and cant back it up. We simply use the writings of the Early Church Fathers and compare them to what the Church teaches today… It is a good way for us to gain converts because the facts are pretty clear once you actually do some research .

I also think some of the offers Mormonism makes to converts like the ability to rule over your own planet is not very wholesome. It actully sounds rather demonic in nature. Just my opinion.
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Well, like it or not, according to independent sources, the LDS Church is the fastest growing church in the world. In the US it is the fourth largest. (In California I believe the figure is higher.) It punches way above its weight. There are 16 Mormons in the US Congress. There is even a Mormon running for President; and the chances of his nomination look good. The Catholic Church had a much harder time getting that far. There are many more Catholics in the US than Mormons; and they haven’t been reviled, opposed, and fought against in the country nearly as much. They had a harder time putting a Catholic President in the White House. Considering the smallness of their numbers (by comparison), and the amount of opposition the LDS Church has faced, I think that their success has been remarkable—and there is no sign of it abating.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
Well, like it or not, according to independent sources, the LDS Church is the fastest growing church in the world. In the US it is the fourth largest. (In California I believe the figure is higher.) It punches way above its weight. There are 16 Mormons in the US Congress. There is even a Mormon running for President; and the chances of his nomination look good. The Catholic Church had a much harder time getting that far. There are many more Catholics in the US than Mormons; and they haven’t been reviled, opposed, and fought against in the country nearly as much. They had a harder time putting a Catholic President in the White House. Considering the smallness of their numbers (by comparison), and the amount of opposition the LDS Church has faced, I think that their success has been remarkable—and there is no sign of it abating.

zerinus
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The LDS church is one of the fastest-growing religions in the world,
"Many other religions are growing faster than Mormonism, and it is unclear how Mormonism would have a competitive advantage over those religions. Despite increasing the member base and missionary force by 50% over the last decade, the church has been unsuccessful at increasing the number of baptisms by even 1%

According to the data, the number of self-professed Mormons is between 23-58 percent of the number claimed by the church. (Australia 47.5%, Austria 57.1%, Canada 58.4% (lower outside Alberta), Chile 27.3%, Mexico 23.2%.)"
mormonwiki.org/Population_and_growth_rate

2006 and earlier rate of growth The top 25 churches that grew in the USA and Canada, per the UCC 2007 report, are:
  1. The Catholic Church, 69,135,254 increase of 1.94 percent
  2. Assemblies of God, 2,830,861 increase of 1.86 percent.
    manilatimes.net/national/…70408top1.html
A word that accurately describes Assemblies of God World Missions today is “unprecedented.” The worldwide Fellowship now numbers more than 57 million members and adherents with more than 295,000 churches and preaching points. The doors of opportunity to preach the gospel of Christ also are unprecedented as missionaries and national believers minister to those who have never heard.
– Executive Director, L. John Bueno
worldmissions.ag.org/
 
adrift said:
The site is very nice however you are not comparing fairly.

It has 4793 registered members with 7 forums only four of those are active the other 3 are archived.
CA has 63,284 registered members with 12 forums with only one archived. At the time I viewed it, there were only 40 viewing as opposed to CA 338. It didn’t seem that there were to many non LDS posting. I didn’t see the LDS attacked. I do not know if criticism of LDS would get the poster booted. Like I said it is unfair of you to compare the two since they do not have the same volume nor do they have the same type of forums.
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The type of stuff that zerinus posts here, would get him booted from mormonapologetics. There is no “contention” because it isn’t allowed. Everyone has to sugar coat everything and pretend like people make sense and have valid points, when they don’t.
 
dosdog said:
The LDS church is one of the fastest-growing religions in the world,
"Many other religions are growing faster than Mormonism, and it is unclear how Mormonism would have a competitive advantage over those religions. Despite increasing the member base and missionary force by 50% over the last decade, the church has been unsuccessful at increasing the number of baptisms by even 1%

According to the data, the number of self-professed Mormons is between 23-58 percent of the number claimed by the church. (Australia 47.5%, Austria 57.1%, Canada 58.4% (lower outside Alberta), Chile 27.3%, Mexico 23.2%.)"
mormonwiki.org/Population_and_growth_rate

2006 and earlier rate of growth The top 25 churches that grew in the USA and Canada, per the UCC 2007 report, are:
  1. The Catholic Church, 69,135,254 increase of 1.94 percent
  2. Assemblies of God, 2,830,861 increase of 1.86 percent.
    manilatimes.net/national/…70408top1.html
A word that accurately describes Assemblies of God World Missions today is “unprecedented.” The worldwide Fellowship now numbers more than 57 million members and adherents with more than 295,000 churches and preaching points. The doors of opportunity to preach the gospel of Christ also are unprecedented as missionaries and national believers minister to those who have never heard.
– Executive Director, L. John Bueno
worldmissions.ag.org/
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Churches use different methods to calculate their numbers; that is why their figures are not comparable. Most churches do not have an accurate record of their membership; hence their figures are easily exaggerated. Does the Catholic Church have an accurate record of all its members? I doubt it. The same is true of most other churches. Their figures are statistical estimates—hence not very reliable. The LDS Church is the only one (as far as I know) that has an accurate record of its membership. There is a reason for that. The reason is that to us record keeping is vitally important. It is theologically important. To us membership in the Church is defined by their name being written in the record of Church members. Not being a member (or excommunicated, or left the Church) is defined by their names being removed from that list. Even in the days when everything was done on paper, this procedure was meticulously followed. Nowadays with the help of computers that process is much more efficient. When the LDS Church produces facts and figures about it membership, those figures are accurate and reliable. That is not true of other churches.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
Churches use different methods to calculate their numbers; that is why their figures are not comparable. Most churches do not have an accurate record of their membership; hence their figures are easily exaggerated. Does the Catholic Church have an accurate record of all its members? I doubt it. The same is true of most other churches. Their figures are statistical estimates—hence not very reliable. The LDS Church is the only one (as far as I know) that has an accurate record of its membership. There is a reason for that. The reason is that to us record keeping is vitally important. It is theologically important. To us membership in the Church is defined by their name being written in the record of Church members. Not being a member (or excommunicated, or left the Church) is defined by their names being removed from that list. Even in the days when everything was done on paper, this procedure was meticulously followed. Nowadays with the help of computers that process is much more efficient. When the LDS Church produces facts and figures about it membership, those figures are accurate and reliable. That is not true of other churches.

zerinus
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mormonwiki.org/index.php?title=Lying_for_the_Lord&
Lying for the Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion, a practice which Mormonism itself fosters in various ways. From Joseph Smith’s denial of having more than one wife, to polygamous Mormon missionaries telling European investigators that reports about polygamy in Utah were lies put out by “anti-Mormons” and disgruntled ex-members, to Gordon B. Hinckley’s dishonest equivocation on national television over Mormon doctrine,

“The suppressed aspects of Mormon history that most troubled me indicated many instances in which Mormon leaders have deceived both their followers and the public about important matters. Joseph Smith was the worst in this regard. His tendency to exaggerate or lie when in a tight spot bears a striking resemblance to the practices of shady stock promoters I have on occasion met relative to my legal practice,” the attorney stated.
“Mormon leaders at the local level are sincere and generally unaware of the issues I had raised,” said McCue. And he says that though he is critical of LDS leaders he knows they can be “genuinely loving.” “They believe God’s will requires that they mislead their followers,” he explained.
rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon164.html
 
dosdog said:
mormonwiki.org/index.php?title=Lying_for_the_Lord&
Lying for the Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion, a practice which Mormonism itself fosters in various ways. From Joseph Smith’s denial of having more than one wife, to polygamous Mormon missionaries telling European investigators that reports about polygamy in Utah were lies put out by “anti-Mormons” and disgruntled ex-members, to Gordon B. Hinckley’s dishonest equivocation on national television over Mormon doctrine,

“The suppressed aspects of Mormon history that most troubled me indicated many instances in which Mormon leaders have deceived both their followers and the public about important matters. Joseph Smith was the worst in this regard. His tendency to exaggerate or lie when in a tight spot bears a striking resemblance to the practices of shady stock promoters I have on occasion met relative to my legal practice,” the attorney stated.
“Mormon leaders at the local level are sincere and generally unaware of the issues I had raised,” said McCue. And he says that though he is critical of LDS leaders he knows they can be “genuinely loving.” “They believe God’s will requires that they mislead their followers,” he explained.
rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon164.html
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The Mormon Church does not lie.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
Well, like it or not, according to independent sources, the LDS Church is the fastest growing church in the world. In the US it is the fourth largest. (In California I believe the figure is higher.) It punches way above its weight. There are 16 Mormons in the US Congress. There is even a Mormon running for President; and the chances of his nomination look good. The Catholic Church had a much harder time getting that far. There are many more Catholics in the US than Mormons; and they haven’t been reviled, opposed, and fought against in the country nearly as much. They had a harder time putting a Catholic President in the White House. Considering the smallness of their numbers (by comparison), and the amount of opposition the LDS Church has faced, I think that their success has been remarkable—and there is no sign of it abating.

zerinus
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“Fastest Growing” is a standard advertising line for companies - groups - religions that are smaller then the rest. You can’t say “The Largest” or one of the top three Largest" . You can barely say you are mid-sized…So to smoke that up, you say you are the fastest growing. It’s easier to double or triple something small than to double something already large… Ya know?

Plus, popularity has no connection to Truth. Sometimes evil is at the right time and place to take root. Look at Germany or Japan.

If Mitt get the nomination or worse wins the Presidency, it will be the end of Mormonism’s growth. Your group simply cant hold up under any sort of scrutiny. The glaring light that will get focused on you if he starts to win, will destroy you. People don’t know much about what you peddle, once the press gets their attention on what you actually teach, people will be shocked… Right now, you are still in the shadows…but growing fast.
 
not to mention the practice of defining the metrics. The LDS church can’t claim the fastest increase in total members so it uses percentage increase. even this wouldn’t help if they went with net increase. they redefine the terms to include only added members while not calculating departures. (in their mind even exed members have to be tracked).

Zerinus is wrong to assume that other churches aren’t keeping accurate membership records. Many protestant churches are dependent on their records for visitation, not to mention funding. these records are used for facilities planing as well. The Catholic church certainly records every sacrament of initiation. we just don’t use those records to hunt folks down and pry into their personal business. Most churches know how many people attend and how many are registered. they can use that to get pretty accurate numbers of total members and active members. there is also the census that tells us who claims to be members of what religion. that can then be compared and final numbers adjusted accordingly for statistical purposes.

There are less than 15 million mormons in the world. outside of the USA they are an insignificant minority that most don’t even notice. look at their “growth” in russia for example. compare that to SDA’s, assembly of God, JW’s or even Baptists. in the US they are known everywhere but are not in significant numbers outside of a few western states. convert retention rates are some of the lowest of any religion. the “growth” is coming from births.
 
why_me said:
If they would have been shown to the public, god’s work would have been thwarted by mormon reasoning. First, such a discovery as JS related it complete with an angel visitation would have destroyed faith and put religion on a different basis. We are on this earth to live faithfully, trusting in god and believing that there is a god. It can not be based on fact but on faith.

The plates were taken away by an angel. Sounds crazy but no more crazy than apparitions of Mary, right? 🤷
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I dont agree with this reasoning at all. Moses showed the 10-Commandment stone tablets, Jesus showed miracles. Miracles were all over the Bible as a GROUND for putting your faith in something. It takes faith to believe the plates are authentic, but to not even show them is a whole other story.

You are NOT saved by Faith Alone. 😃
(get it, Protestants believe in salvation by faith apart from works, LDS believe in salvation by faith apart from evidence [is that the correct term?])
 
The speed (or lack thereof) by which the LDS Church may be growing is not reflective in any way of the truth of that organization. Same for its relative size compared to other religious organizations.

I do not choose to be a Catholic because the Church is big, or because of how many people may enroll in RCIA in a given year.
 
why_me said:
Lets look at it this way: The bible’s geography does have claim in the bible. However, there is no proof that christ is the christ outside the bible. I see no other proof from that time that validates Christ’s story. The archeaological evidence does not validate the bible story. It only situates the story correctly.

The book of mormon however does have 11 witnesses who never denied their testimony of seeing the gold plates regardless if they left the lds church or stayed.

To find conclusive evidence of the book of mormon would validate the entire notion that there is a god. I don’t believe that god works in such a fashion. God works through faith and not proof. Likwise, since we have no testimony outside the bible that christ did perform the miracles or that such stories actually happened, it also takes faith that the bible is actual history.
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Pardon me, but contemporary Jewish records have been found relating to Christ. And Roman records of His existence were made by Pliny the Younger. Neither source is even remotely biblical.
 
Holly3278 said:
Hi everyone. How do you, as a Catholic, respond to evidences that the Book of Mormon is true such as those listed in the website:

http://www.mormonevidence.com

Any help you all will provide would be greatly appreciated.
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That site is full of conjecture, speculation and isolated coincidences

Real evidence would include things like DNA evidence, Nephite artifacts, linguistic connections to old world languages, etc. None of this exists. If it did, you would find non-Mormon scholars concurring that Israelites once thrived in the new world…they don’t.
 
Holly3278 said:
Hi everyone. How do you, as a Catholic, respond to evidences that the Book of Mormon is true such as those listed in the website:

http://www.mormonevidence.com

Any help you all will provide would be greatly appreciated.
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The Book of Mormon has been documented to have been changed (information added, and information removed) many many times. God’s word, The Holy Bible has remained unchanged for over two thousand years.
Mormons deny the deity of Christ. They think that Jesus and lucifer were spirit brothers. They also believe that Jesus was Michael the Archangel. Who would follow as their prophet, an individual like Joseph Smith (poligamist and liar) ?
If you go to Barnes and Noble book store and go to the section on cults, you will find books on Mormonism. That’s what they are, a cult!
Pray for them, that God would remove the “scales” from their eyes.

Robert
 
Robert902 said:
If you go to Barnes and Noble book store and go to the section on cults, you will find books on Mormonism. That’s what they are, a cult!
Pray for them, that God would remove the “scales” from their eyes.

Robert
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If Barnes and Noble has the lds church in its cult section then, I am afraid it was put there by individuals such as yourself. Actually when I was in New York City I saw books about Mormons in the christianity section. B & N would never put the lds church in the cult section, especially not in Utah.

Sorry you are wrong.
 
RebeccaJ said:
The type of stuff that zerinus posts here, would get him booted from mormonapologetics. There is no “contention” because it isn’t allowed. Everyone has to sugar coat everything and pretend like people make sense and have valid points, when they don’t.
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Not true. There is contention over on mormonapologetics, however, you will not find anticatholicm on that site. No one would paste from a website that was classified as anticatholic. The mormons on that site tend to be polite toward other faiths.

There is a banning process however and people have been banned.
 
zerinus said:
(In California I believe the figure is higher.) It punches way above its weight. zerinus
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Z,

I have lived in No CA for many years and the only growth happpening in my area is through birth and migration of LDS from Utah. No new Stakes have been created in years. No families have been baptized into the ward I used to attend. In fact, two neighboring Stakes have reduced the number of wards. Moism is hitting a dead end in No CA.
 
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