Book X, Chapter Y, Verse Z...?

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God the Father is not bloodthirsty; His anger does not need to be mollified.
If you take the whole OT into account, you will see that Yahweh is bloodthirsty, vain, vindictive, cruel, capricious, etc… being. If you look at the Abel-Cain story you will see an arbitrary acceptence and rejection of offerings, where the good will of Cain was rejected.
Jesus’ sacrifice is the giving of all to the Father, just as the Father gives all to the Son.
In which case it was a useless gesture.
There is a further dimension to this notion. Jean-Luc Marion has pointed out that God already had a plan in place to spare Isaac. The “sacrifice” was to remind Abraham that Isaac was a “gift”, not his personal possession.

Thus, sacrifice is not destruction, or restitution, or a contractual quid pro quo. Its purpose is to acknowledge the “gift”.

At the moment of such acknowledgement, God manifests Himself (e.g.,God appeared to Abraham and directed him to substitute the ram).

For a Jean-Luc Marion video, see vimeo.com/5712520. This is 90 minutes long. You may want to watch just the last 10 minutes of the video.
Makes absolutely no difference. Neither Abraham nor Isaac was aware that God is simply playing cat-and-mouse with them. To place someone into that situation - is incredible cruelty. That fact that the charade was stopped before the final moment makes is a teeny-bit better, but it is still inexcusable.

By the way, the use of the word “gift” even is quotation marks should be avoided. God does not give “gifts”, he hands out “loans”, which carry obligations but come without ownership. We are not even the proprietors of our own lives. A “gift” where there is no transfer of ownership is not a “gift”.
 
God does not give “gifts”, he hands out “loans”, which carry obligations but come without ownership. We are not even the proprietors of our own lives. A “gift” where there is no transfer of ownership is not a “gift”.
I agree that we are not proprietors. We do not own the building. As Heidegger says, we were “thrown” into existence. We’re not causa sui (this sounds like 1950s American Chinese cuisine).

But, to continue with Heidegger, we are shepherds; we are responsible in some strange way for ourselves and others.

But the “gift” itself is totally gratuitous. No reciprocity is even possible. What could we pay anyway?

That’s why Sartre ironically is correct when he says that we are absurd - existence is indeed “groundless” because the world is completely unnecessary.

God’s love has no reasons (Jean-Luc Marion).

Sorry for the digression.
 
For what purpose?
Are you being deliberately obtuse? The answer seems rather too obvious to need stating, but I’ll do so anyway - For the purpose of interpreting the bible.*
*With no significance?
Again strange question, I can’t see what you are really asking here. What do you mean by significance?*
*Adding sarcastically:
??? What were you being sarcastic about? I’m afraid I missed it. For that matter why did you feel the need to be sarcastic?*
*Which amounts to sheer nonsense…
Clearly it doesn’t, because Catholics can and more important DO interpret the stories such as Noah’s flood in different ways. Just like they can and DO interpret Abraham and Isaac in different ways. Your “rule” does not resolve the conflict in either direction and therefore quite obviously does not assist in interpretation.
*I had already pointed out that it is regarded as historical.
And I asked if this is your personal belief or if it is supported by an authoritative source. A question you have still not actually answered.
*Considering that the Christian creeds and the Catechism summarise the events in the life of Jesus described in the New Testament such a source is hardly necessary!
Well that provides an authoritative source for the specific points covered, by the creeds and the catechism. But there’s an awful lot more in the new testament than that. So it really doesn’t tell me that the new testament as a whole is considered to be historical.*
*I had already pointed out that such a rule is unnecessary. All the more so if one rejects Christianity anyway!
And I have already pointed out that it would be useful, especially for Catholics to be able to interpret the bible with confidence and from authority, and I have provided examples from this website for you. So to say it’s unnecessary is clearly rather silly.*
*I cited the following text:

I know, I read it, and responded to it. Obviously it does not support your statement:

“There is only one lesson that really matters: the Son was put to death to liberate us from evil with His love.”

(bolding mine)

So, again is this your personal opinion or is it supported by an authoritative source?*
*Can you give an alternative explanation to "Christ liberated us from evil with His love? :confused:
??? Again, I wouldn’t presume to state what Christians believe is the only lesson that matters, or even state that christians believe there is only one lesson that matters. I certainly didn’t believe that when I was a Christian and to date you’re the ONLY Christian I know who has stated this.

So, once again, is that an official position or a personal opinion? Again do you have a reference?
 
I agree that we are not proprietors. We do not own the building. As Heidegger says, we were “thrown” into existence.
Indeed. As such we are not responsible for our existence. If we consider that our human parents “caused” us to exist, they can be rightly chastized for their selfishness. They have only one excuse: they did not have omniscience, and thus they had hopes for us, but they could not know what they “commit us” to endure. That excuse is not available for God. According to christians he knew what he was doing, he knew our fate, and chose to create us, even when he knew that some of us will land in hell (and that is pre-destination, which cannot be denied).

Again, there can be no more serious indictment I could utter, than the one put forth by the believers. And that is why I firmly believe that God does not exist. If he existed, he would have come down a long time ago and kick the living s… (I mean daylight) out of the believers for being so disrespectful toward him, for spreading such vicious rumors about him.
But, to continue with Heidegger, we are shepherds; we are responsible in some strange way for ourselves and others.
I deny this. Since we did not ask to be created, we have no responsibility. If we so choose we should be “welcomed” to throw away this unwanted existence. The parents are responsible for the well-being of the children, at the very least until the children become adults themselves. God has no such excuse: we shall never “grow” into gods, and therefore God has full responsibility for our complete well-being - and God woefully neglects this responsibility - just like any other “deadbeat dad” does.
But the “gift” itself is totally gratuitous.
What “gift”? There is no “gift” here. A “gift”, by definition is something that is given and accepted, which could be rejected, and when accepted it comes with full ownership of the given “thing”. None of this happens here. That is why I do not accept the word “gift” in this respect.
That’s why Sartre ironically is correct when he says that we are absurd - existence is indeed “groundless” because the world is completely unnecessary.
The necessary - unnecessary dichotomy is what is “groundless”. The world simply exists.
God’s love has no reasons (Jean-Luc Marion).
Sorry. Where is this “love” manifested? Because it is not manifested here and now.
Sorry for the digression.
Digressions are unavoidable.
 
What “gift”? There is no “gift” here. A “gift”, by definition is something that is given and accepted, which could be rejected, and when accepted it comes with full ownership of the given “thing”. None of this happens here. That is why I do not accept the word “gift” in this respect.
Isaac’s birth was a gift from God more so than we would probably think of any other birth considering how unlikely it was for Sarah and Abraham to be able to conceive. Abraham had no claim to Isaac’s life anymore than he had a claim to his own life from God. How could he therefore deny God, that which was God’s? You have to start by thinking from the perspective that everything you have is God’s including your own life, and is continually held in existence by God. We are the stewards of God’s gifts, not the kings and owners of said gifts.
 
c
What “gift”?
Heidegger’s last word (putative) before kicking the bucket: “danke” …

Yet here was a guy who had utterly disgraced himself by enthusiastically supporting National Socialism and in general had made a complete mess of his life …

I don’t know who he was thanking …because Heidegger had long since ceased being a Catholic and probably did not believe in a personal God (at least in any ordinary sense) …

May we all be able to sing a few bars of “danke schoen” when the time comes …

P.S. I like your idea of God "kicking the living s_ " out of some of us … I’m sure He will do it in a loving way …
 
Are you being deliberately obtuse? The answer seems rather too obvious to need stating, but I’ll do so anyway - For the purpose of interpreting the bible.*

Again strange question, I can’t see what you are really asking here. What do you mean by significance?*

??? What were you being sarcastic about? I’m afraid I missed it. For that matter why did you feel the need to be sarcastic?*

Clearly it doesn’t, because Catholics can and more important DO interpret the stories such as Noah’s flood in different ways. Just like they can and DO interpret Abraham and Isaac in different ways. Your “rule” does not resolve the conflict in either direction and therefore quite obviously does not assist in interpretation.

And I asked if this is your personal belief or if it is supported by an authoritative source. A question you have still not actually answered.

Well that provides an authoritative source for the specific points covered, by the creeds and the catechism. But there’s an awful lot more in the new testament than that. So it really doesn’t tell me that the new testament as a whole is considered to be historical.*

And I have already pointed out that it would be useful, especially for Catholics to be able to interpret the bible with confidence and from authority, and I have provided examples from this website for you. So to say it’s unnecessary is clearly rather silly.*

I know, I read it, and responded to it. Obviously it does not support your statement:

“There is only one lesson that really matters: the Son was put to death to liberate us from evil with His love.”

(bolding mine)

So, again is this your personal opinion or is it supported by an authoritative source?*

??? Again, I wouldn’t presume to state what Christians believe is the only lesson that matters, or even state that christians believe there is only one lesson that matters. I certainly didn’t believe that when I was a Christian and to date you’re the ONLY Christian I know who has stated this.

So, once again, is that an official position or a personal opinion? Again do you have a reference?
There is absolutely no point in attempting to have a rational discussion with some one who considers that he has no obligation to be reasonable… 🙂
 
c

Heidegger’s last word (putative) before kicking the bucket: “danke” …

Yet here was a guy who had utterly disgraced himself by enthusiastically supporting National Socialism and in general had made a complete mess of his life …

I don’t know who he was thanking …because Heidegger had long since ceased being a Catholic and probably did not believe in a personal God (at least in any ordinary sense) …

May we all be able to sing a few bars of “danke schoen” when the time comes …

P.S. I like your idea of God "kicking the living s_ " out of some of us … I’m sure He will do it in a loving way …
What I meant was – if Heidegger the atheist can say “thank you”, after a totally messed up life, then what’s our excuse?

No wonder God is going to give some of us a good thrashing.
 
Isaac’s birth was a gift from God more so than we would probably think of any other birth considering how unlikely it was for Sarah and Abraham to be able to conceive. Abraham had no claim to Isaac’s life anymore than he had a claim to his own life from God. How could he therefore deny God, that which was God’s?
Well, then what would you do if God ordered you to burn, kill, rape, maim and torture little children? If you really meant what you said, your response to such an order would be: “Yes, Lord!”, and cheerfully execute the order.
You have to start by thinking from the perspective that everything you have is God’s including your own life, and is continually held in existence by God. We are the stewards of God’s gifts, not the kings and owners of said gifts.
Why should I start to believe such lunacy? It totally contradicts the idea of a “good” God. What is “good” about throwing a “gift” to someone, who never asked for it, who may not even want it, NOT giving the proper wherewithal to maintain that “gift”, but demanding full responsibility for the “maintenance”. What you call “gift” is simply a cruel joke. Obviously you still do not comprehend what a “gift” would be.
 
Well, then what would you do if God ordered you to burn, kill, rape, maim and torture little children? If you really meant what you said, your response to such an order would be: “Yes, Lord!”, and cheerfully execute the order.

If the creator of all things who was all powerful came and told you to do something the logical thing would be to do it. I believe Abraham had no problem with following the command of God because he knew that God was all powerful and had control over life and death. God could have very easily raised Isaac from the dead right after Abraham killed him if he had so pleased. The entire story here seems to foreshadow what God himself does end up doing in handing over His own son to be a sacrifice and then raising him up. God didn’t ask Abraham to do anything he himself wouldn’t do. I won’t speak towards the other horrid things you posted since there is no example of God commanding any of those things.

Why should I start to believe such lunacy? It totally contradicts the idea of a “good” God. What is “good” about throwing a “gift” to someone, who never asked for it, who may not even want it, NOT giving the proper wherewithal to maintain that “gift”, but demanding full responsibility for the “maintenance”. What you call “gift” is simply a cruel joke. Obviously you still do not comprehend what a “gift” would be.

How are you coming to the conclusion that Abraham didn’t want a child? Although you appear to see that God is “good” you also fail to understand that God is also all-knowing and all-loving. If God gives you a gift you know its good. Just because we may or may not like the gift doesn’t make the gift bad or God bad haha. God doesn’t give us what we want, he gives us what we need. By your reasoning if I paid for a drug addict to get treatment and they didn’t want to go, it would be a bad gift and I would be a bad person.
 
If the creator of all things who was all powerful came and told you to do something the logical thing would be to do it. I believe Abraham had no problem with following the command of God because he knew that God was all powerful and had control over life and death. God could have very easily raised Isaac from the dead right after Abraham killed him if he had so pleased. The entire story here seems to foreshadow what God himself does end up doing in handing over His own son to be a sacrifice and then raising him up. God didn’t ask Abraham to do anything he himself wouldn’t do. I won’t speak towards the other horrid things you posted since there is no example of God commanding any of those things.
But the principle still holds. And God did order the Israelities to slaughter all the males, famales, boys and the non-virgin girls and keep the virgin girls “for themselves”. And the fate at those times was not much fun for the captured virgins.
How are you coming to the conclusion that Abraham didn’t want a child?
I am not interested in one particular example. God supposedly “gives” us our lives. We have no say-so in the matter. God also “gives us” leprosy, HIV, Earthquakes, wildfires, none of which we “ask for”, nor do we need.
Although you appear to see that God is “good” you also fail to understand that God is also all-knowing and all-loving.
If you call God “good”, you have no idea what “good” means.
If God gives you a gift you know its good. Just because we may or may not like the gift doesn’t make the gift bad or God bad haha. God doesn’t give us what we want, he gives us what we need.
I can just visualize how much miners “need” to be trapped underground to die slowly, and how much their families “need” the agony of the unfulfilled hope of having their loved loves rescued. God could keep these “gifts” to himself.
By your reasoning if I paid for a drug addict to get treatment and they didn’t want to go, it would be a bad gift and I would be a bad person.
If you would force that person to undergo the treatment, then you would be a bad person, all right. If you would offer that treatment, that would be a different ballgame. But God does not “offer” anything.
 
But the principle still holds. And God did order the Israelities to slaughter all the males, famales, boys and the non-virgin girls and keep the virgin girls “for themselves”. And the fate at those times was not much fun for the captured virgins.
How do you know these were unjust commands?
I am not interested in one particular example. God supposedly “gives” us our lives. We have no say-so in the matter. God also “gives us” leprosy, HIV, Earthquakes, wildfires, none of which we “ask for”, nor do we need.
How does God give us diseases? Seems your claim in this regard is without evidence.
If you call God “good”, you have no idea what “good” means.
Given the strawman version of God above, your conclusion is invalid. And, why is your definition of “good” the applicable one in this case?
I can just visualize how much miners “need” to be trapped underground to die slowly, and how much their families “need” the agony of the unfulfilled hope of having their loved loves rescued. God could keep these “gifts” to himself.

If you would force that person to undergo the treatment, then you would be a bad person, all right. If you would offer that treatment, that would be a different ballgame. But God does not “offer” anything.
:confused:
 
How do you know these were unjust commands?
Last time I heard the catholic church asserted that humans have an innate dignity, and in my - maybe biased - opinion, sexual slavery is just a little bit against that dignity. Maybe your milage varies, and you may not see anything problematic with it.
How does God give us diseases? Seems your claim in this regard is without evidence. Given the strawman version of God above, your conclusion is invalid.
Since everything is given out by God, it is pretty obvious. Mind you, it was not my assertion that everything is given out and maintained by God, so you should direct your question toward those, who came up with this lunatic idea. That strawman version is not my creation - it is given out by many posters on the board.
And, why is your definition of “good” the applicable one in this case?
Oh yes… there is a different definition of “good” when we talk about God and a totally different one, when we talk of everything else. Riiiight… If only I would have a dollar for every time that someone said this, I would be a pretty rich person by now.

Here is the trick. If something is “good” when performed by God, it is equally “good” when performed by humans. And the opposite is also true: if something is despicable when performed by humans, it is equally despicable when performed by God. There are no two different measuring rods, one for God and one for everything else. There is no “get out of jail free” card for God, just because he is God. That is why I asked so many times by now: “if God is sooo loving, where is that love manifested, so we all can see and experience that love, and reciprocate it in our measly and inadequate, but honest ways?”.

The basic problem is simple: every time you guys and gals will use the famous (more like infamous) “fallacy of special pleading”. God is a special case, God must be measured by different standards. It will not fly. The fallacy of “special pleading” only manifests one thing: you are out of arguments, you cannot rationally explain the charges brought up against God, and therefore you try the “special pleading”. It would be refreshing to see it openly and honestly admitted, but that is also a vain hope.

When I first read 1984, I could not fathom how can people actually practice “doublethink” and therefore I thought that the writer was too far out to be taken seriously; I thought that the society he wrote about is impossible. I am still unable to understand “doublethink”, but having been on these boards a few years, I must accept that some people are actually able to maintain two, contradictory views at the same time. Frightening, really.
 
I am not interested in one particular example. God supposedly “gives” us our lives. We have no say-so in the matter. God also “gives us” leprosy, HIV, Earthquakes, wildfires, none of which we “ask for”, nor do we need.
You speak as though you know the actual purpose of these things.
Without such knowledge, you cannot claim one way or the other if we ‘need’ them.
 
When I first read 1984, I could not fathom how can people actually practice “doublethink” and therefore I thought that the writer was too far out to be taken seriously…but having been on these boards a few years, I must accept that some people are actually able to maintain two, contradictory views at the same time…
I frequently get the feeling that instructions for learning how to interpret the bible that I’ve received lend towards developing that mode of thinking. I had an ongoing discussion with a Jehovah’s Witness that visited my house a few times on this very topic while he was trying to sell me on his denomination and tell me how I should feel about the verses that he was sharing with me and get me to adopt the yes/no/wait heuristic for evaluating answers to intercessory prayer.

Speaking of prayer, at yesterday’s office celebration one person came in dressed as the Disney Fairy Godmother from Cinderella and another person came dressed as a priest. They got into some discussion on which one was more effective at granting prayers/wishes. I know they were just joking, but some where in there is a serious discussion. (Off topic, I know, but I felt compelled to share).

Back on topic, it would be nice if which ever got or gods is/are the real deal would initiate some type of unambiguous communication, demonstrate his/her/their authenticity (so that we can move the other religious books to the “fiction” section), and provided some on going assistance on interpreting a modern version of his/her/their holy text.
 
@Spock
If you call God “good”, you have no idea what “good” means.
Good is a matter of perspective. If God is all-knowing he would have the best perspective by which to determine what was good and bad, especially since he created everything by which we use to determine good from bad. If there is no God then talking about what is good and bad is relative and meaningless in my opinion. You appear to think that death is “bad”, which is not surprising coming from someone whom I presume doesn’t believe in anything after death.
If you would force that person to undergo the treatment, then you would be a bad person, all right. If you would offer that treatment, that would be a different ballgame. But God does not “offer” anything.
So “forcing” someone who is mentally ill to be put in a mental hospital would be “bad” then? I better not “forcibly” throw water on someone who is knocked out either. God does offer something, his grace. We just have to have to open ourselves to it. He also offers us the Truth.
I am not interested in one particular example. God supposedly “gives” us our lives. We have no say-so in the matter. God also “gives us” leprosy, HIV, Earthquakes, wildfires, none of which we “ask for”, nor do we need.
Actually you do have a say so in the matter, we are capable of ending our lives at any time. You could reject the gift if you wanted. By the very nature of life, you obviously can’t reject your life before you are created. If you want to complain about this go ahead, but I don’t really see how that will do you any good. All your other examples seem to be leading towards the idea that you consider all suffering to be “bad”. I would love to hear you explain your reasoning behind this assumption.
Originally Posted by Spock View Post
When I first read 1984, I could not fathom how can people actually practice “doublethink” and therefore I thought that the writer was too far out to be taken seriously…but having been on these boards a few years, I must accept that some people are actually able to maintain two, contradictory views at the same time…
Haha so your saying people are human? This has little to do with “doublethink” and a lot to do with humans only being able to hold so many pieces of information at the front of their mind at one time. If we could look at everything at once we would be God 😉
 
Back on topic, it would be nice if which ever got or gods is/are the real deal would initiate some type of unambiguous communication, demonstrate his/her/their authenticity (so that we can move the other religious books to the “fiction” section), and provided some on going assistance on interpreting a modern version of his/her/their holy text.
Haha I’m surprised you think this would actually make a difference. How many people didn’t believe in Jesus in the Bible even though he was right in front of them performing miracles. The pharisee’s said his power came from the devil, and you guys would just say he was just a very good magician, or maybe an alien. How many more people came to faith after Jesus had died as opposed to when he was still alive? If anything history attests to the fact that God not making his presence explicitly obvious has brought more people to faith then if he did. If you want to know why faith is important you have your answer right there.
 
God is such a procrastinator…
Thank God for that … please note that you’re excluded from the thrashing … it applies only to us Catholics …for to whom much is given, much is expected …
 
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