Book X, Chapter Y, Verse Z...?

[Spock]

So, getting all hung up on “what the Bible says” without education or trusting the organization that put it together in the first place, is ludicrous. Jesus didn’t write a book. He founded a Church. The Catholic Church, which preceded all other Christian churches by 1000 years. If you want to know what Jesus taught, listen to what His Church teaches. And if you insist on reading the Bible, read it according to what His Church says it means. Not alone, out of historical, linguistic, cultural context.

That is what I am trying to do. You say: “read it according to what His Church says it means”. That is the question here! The “church” is an institution, it is composed of fallible people, who do not have a common platform, who say things differently from each other. Who is the “authoritative” figure? The pope? The pope is a very busy administrator. The pope does not speak up on the questions like: “did God literally demand Abraham to sacrifice Isaac”? So, who does? Anyone? The posters around here know only one thing: “oppose whatever they hear from the ‘other’ side”. They have no arguments, except “thou shalt not say that the bible says what it obviously says - because we don’t like to hear that”. Can they enlighten me what the bible “really” says? Not on your life.

 

[TimothyH]

Exactly my point. It is just a story, nothing else.

Last time I heard the Lord of the Rings was pure fiction, not the “inspired, unchanging word of God” . I am quite happy with accepting the bible as a mildly interesting fiction written up by simple goatherders and fishermen.

Just to be clear regarding the simple goatherders and fishermen…

There was nearly 100% literacy in Israel at the time of Jesus. Children were sent to yeshiva schools almost as soon as they were weaned and were taught to read and write using the Book of Leviticus. This served the dual purpose of teaching them their ABC’s and also teaching them how they were expected to behave, especially with regards to the “Holiness code” in Leviticus 17 through 22. Jewish aduults spent hours in the Synagogue on the sabbath learning about “The Law and the Prophets.” These were highly literate people, quite advanced compared to their peers in the surrounding countries.

Alexander the Great conquored Israel circa 322BC in an attempt to “Hellenize” the world. He was so impressed at what he saw in Jerusalem, that out of all the nations he ruled, he let the Jews continue to live much of their own culture and worship.

Luke was a physician, such as they were in those days, but a physician nonetheless. Peter, James, John, and Andrew were small business owners. Saul/Paul was a highly advanced student of Judaism. Many were fluent in multiple languages. The scribes you hear written about were actually lawyers and paralegals, accountants and bookeepers. There were land surveyors, architects, highly skilled craftsmen, structural and civil engineers. Don’t forget that Solomon’s temple rivaled the pyramids in Egypt in grandeur and construction.

Israel was part of the “Fertile cresent” and the land of Caanan was the crossroads between Greece, Rome, Persia and Egypt. They were exposed to a lot of different cultures and civilizations.

I think you get my point. We can’t fall into the trap of equating posession of technology with intelligence and advanced thinking. Much of our legal, political and social systems are based on ideas and concepts which these ancient people thought up. Individually, and as a society, especially at the time of Jesus, these were not just illiterate agrarian peasants.

-Tim-

 

[Jesus_123]

The question is simple: take any verse from any chapter from any book in the bible… how does one find out if it is to be taken literally, or allegorically? …

+This is a Catholic Answers forum . . . below is the Catholic answer from our Holy Mother Church’s Magesterium stated in the The Catechism of the Catholic Church . . . which clearly reveals Sacred :bible1: Scripture can be believed on two (2) levels . . . not just one . . . it is not an either/or situation . . . but a **both/and ** type of understanding that is revealed . . . with the second level of knowledge being divided up into three sublevels of perceiving revelations of truth . . . and the literary genre doesn’t affect the truth of the revelation in any way.

**. . . :coffeeread: . . .**The senses of Scripture

115 **
According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal** and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral, and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

**116 **
The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83

**117 **
The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ’s victory and also of Christian Baptism.84

1. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written "for our instruction."85
2. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, “leading”). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86

118 **
A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four** senses:

The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.87

**119 **
"It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, …​

God is the author of Sacred :bible1: Scripture . . . and it contains infallible truth (truth without error) . . .

. . . :coffeeread: . . .

II. Inspiration and Truth of Sacred Scripture

**105 **
God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

**106 **
God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

107
The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit,** we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures**."72​

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Gracious Lord+​

 

[TimothyH]

The pope is a very busy administrator.

This shows some ignorance of the day to day activities of the Holy Father. I don’t mean that in a bad way - ignorance - but in the literal sense of the word, lack of knowledge.

Pope John Paul II prayed six hours each day. Our current Pope likewise.

We are “Busy” but the Holy Father has a team which runs the day to day activities of the Vatican. Remember that each Diocese is run independent of the Vatican in terms of adminnistration, and similarly, each parish is an individual cell, run independent of other parishes.

The Holy Father’s job is not administrative. His job is spiritual, and that consitutes most of his day. As to why he does not set about codifiying and quantifying each verse of scripture in a spreadsheet or database, that has already been explained. Other’s have done exactly that, attempted to explain individual verses through cross reference and commentary, but those are rejected out of hand by non-believers like yourself.

-Tim-

 

[Scoobyshme]

That is what I am trying to do. You say: “read it according to what His Church says it means”. That is the question here! The “church” is an institution, it is composed of fallible people, who do not have a common platform, who say things differently from each other. Who is the “authoritative” figure? The pope? The pope is a very busy administrator. The pope does not speak up on the questions like: “did God literally demand Abraham to sacrifice Isaac”? So, who does? Anyone? The posters around here know only one thing: “oppose whatever they hear from the ‘other’ side”. They have no arguments, except “thou shalt not say that the bible says what it obviously says - because we don’t like to hear that”. Can they enlighten me what the bible “really” says? Not on your life.

The Bible was also written by fallible people. But wait! We say it is Divinely inspired! And, it is. If God can inspire fallible people to write the Bible, why can’t He inspire fallible people to infallibly interpret the Bible?

The “Word of God,” strictly speaking, is not a book. It is a Person. Jesus Christ. It has been expressed to mankind in two main ways: First, orally. Secondly, in writing.

But as can be evidenced by history, without an authoritative and authentic interpreter, you end up with literally thousands of man-made, contradictory interpretations, to where no one can be certain that they know anything. Is that what Christ intended, do you think? Or do you suppose He DID provide us with a sure way to know Him, i.e., by establishing a (one) Church?

The Catholic Church, which preceded all other Christian churches by 1000 years or more, is indefectably holy. Not because of the fallible humans within it, but because it has, as its head, Jesus Christ. And, as its soul, the Holy Spirit!

Bet the farm that when Jesus returns, His Church will still be standing. It cannot fail, because it is His Mystical Body.

 

[Jesus_123]

+When one undertakes a study of ANY passage of Sacred :bible1: Scripture . . . for the fullest revelation of the written holy truths possible . . . it is important that the such a study be conducted and accomplished within the whole of the context of the Holy :bible1: Bible entrusted to all of Christendom by God through our Holy Mother Catholic Church . . . for example it is extremely helpful to keep the below revelation from our . . . **First Pope **. . . St. Peter himself . . . concerning the use of the term . . . “day” . . . in mind while contemplating the Genesis creation passages . . .

:bible1:
But of this one thing
**be not ignorant, my beloved, **
that one day with the
**LORD **
is as a
thousand years,
and a
thousand years
as one
day.
- 2 Peter 3:8

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+​

 

[ThinkingSapien]

The Bible was also written by fallible people. But wait! We say it is Divinely inspired! And, it is. If God can inspire fallible people to write the Bible, why can’t He inspire fallible people to infallibly interpret the Bible?

Depending on who I speak to I’ve not encountered agreement of the word “inspired.” Some people will pull its meaning from the Greek roots; many words with -spire have to do with breathing (expire, perspire, respire, so on). From that some interpret phrases of word being inspired to mean that Yahweh dictated the words as his chosen representatives took the dictation.

Some use the word “inspire” to mean something similar to how it is used today to mean that some one was emotionally moved/motivated.

Determining which interpretation is correct leads back to the theme of the thread. It’s difficult to say without an authority. (this could also lead back to the “Supernatural Epistemology” thread, though that thread went off into another topic without ever arriving at anything recognized as “the answer.”)

 

[Julia_Mae]

I did before, but he is notoriously aloof and quiet.

Nah.

It’s okay, I’m praying for you.

 

[Spock]

The Bible was also written by fallible people. But wait! We say it is Divinely inspired!

Whatever that means.

But the question still remains. You guys keep offering very generic instructions, which are vague to the point of meaningless. However, the devil is in the details. Give me specific rules to use, which will lead me to the conclusion to find out which verses are literal - without referring to the mere opinion of of other people?

And, it is. If God can inspire fallible people to write the Bible, why can’t He inspire fallible people to infallibly interpret the Bible?

The real question would be: why couldn’t God inspire a text, which is clear, which needs no interpretations? Which means exactly what it says?

 

[Jesus_123]

The real question would be: why couldn’t God inspire a text, which is clear, which needs no interpretations? Which means exactly what it says?

+Nothing whatsoever upon this . . . God’s green earth below . . . or in heaven above . . . is constructed as flat and " one dimensional" . . . everything here on earth . . . including you . . . is intricately wonderfully “multi-dimensional” in nature . . . in your words you are willfully and deliberately rebelling against and resisting the wondrous nature of the . . . **true reality **. . . of all God’s extraordinary creation as you try to reduce and flatten **God **and all His incredible creation into a flat-one-dimensional-state through fantasy mind games . . . you are . . . very petulantly . . . trying to deny and recreate Who our Wonderful Living Eternal God actually is . . . as revealed to us in the Holy Person of . . . **God the Son **. . . Jesus . . . the blessed Christ our Redeemer and Saviour . . . into an imaginary idol-God more to your personal liking through fanciful manipulative delusional reasoning . . .

Christianity . . . as taught by our Holy Mother Church . . . is by no means a “religion” of human reason (ratio) alone . . . or . . . faith (fides) alone . . . at the beginning of Blessed Pope John Paul the Great’s Fides et ratio . . .

IOANNES PAULUS PP. II
FIDES ET RATIO
To the Bishops
of the Catholic Church
on the relationship
between** Faith** and Reason
1998.09.14

Link: vatican.va/edocs/ENG0216/_INDEX.HTM

is recorded a blessing from our highly esteemed Holy Father . . . the Blessed Pope John Paul the Great . . . which brings into focus . . . **human reason ** . . . and its significance in . . . PARTICIPATING WITH . . . God . . . in the salvific nature of the Holy Gift of Christian Faith . . .

“Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of TRUTH; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the TRUTH—in a word, to know HIMSELF—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2).”
​

Continuing on in Fides et ratio, Chapter 1, Section #9 . . .

"…Based upon God’s testimony and enjoying the supernatural assistance of grace,

• FAITH is of an order
  other than
• PHILOSOPHICAL knowledge which depends upon sense perception and experience and which advances by the light of the intellect alone. **
• PHILOSOPHY AND THE SCIENCES** function within the order of natural reason;

while

• FAITH, enlightened and guided by the Spirit, recognizes in the message of salvation the “fullness of grace and truth” (cf. Jn 1:14) which God has willed to reveal in history and definitively through his Son, Jesus Christ (cf. 1 Jn 5:9; Jn 5:31-32)."

:compcoff: Link: vatican.va/edocs/ENG0216/__P1.HTM

. . . :idea: . . .

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,
saith the Lord.”
Isaiah 55:8

"Thy :bible1: word
is a lamp unto my feet,
and a light unto my path"
Psalm 119:105

“Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way?
by taking heed thereto according to
thy :bible1: word.”
Psalm 119:9

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Blessed Lord God in Heaven Above+
. . . thank you Blessed Virgin Mary our Mother+
. . . thank You Holy Mother Church+
. . . thank you blessed Pope John Paul II+​

 

[Jesus_123]

Is there a general method to find out about any arbitrary verse in the bible if it must be taken literally or allegorically?

+The multi-dimensional many faceted levels of the holy revelation of Truth explored fully and explained in Apostolic Holy Roman Catholic Church Magesterial Doctrine . . .

+This is a Catholic Answers forum . . . below is the Catholic answer from our Holy Mother Church’s Magesterium stated in the The Catechism of the Catholic Church . . . which clearly reveals Sacred :bible1: Scripture can be believed on two (2) levels . . . not just one . . . it is not an either/or situation . . . but a **both/and ** type of understanding that is revealed . . . with the second level of knowledge being divided up into three sublevels of perceiving revelations of truth . . . and the literary genre doesn’t affect the truth of the revelation in any way.

**. . . :coffeeread: . . .**The senses of Scripture

115 **
According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal** and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral, and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

**116 **
The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83

**117 **
The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ’s victory and also of Christian Baptism.84

1. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written "for our instruction."85
2. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, “leading”). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86

118 **
A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four** senses:

The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.87

**119 **
"It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, …​

God is the author of Sacred :bible1: Scripture . . . and it contains infallible truth (truth without error) . . .

. . . :coffeeread: . . .

II. Inspiration and Truth of Sacred Scripture

**105 **
God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

**106 **
God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

107
The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit,** we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error **teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72​

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Gracious Lord+​

 

[Julia_Mae]

The real question would be: why couldn’t God inspire a text, which is clear, which needs no interpretations? Which means exactly what it says?

He came Himself and told us, and showed us, specifically and clearly, everything we need to know and people wrote down what He said and did.

BUT - following Jesus isn’t about memorizing a bunch of rules and laws. And if we had a bunch of rules and laws, we’d just lead ourselves into sin. Which is what happened to the Jews who did have a bunch of rules and laws. Following Jesus is about becoming oned with God. It’s about you forming your own conscience and wishing and pursuing the mind of Christ within you.

I told you to read a Gospel. Your life is eternal. Not after you die, right now. Now you a make the choices that are the path leading to future joy or future regret.

 

[tonyrey]

The question is simple: take any verse from any chapter from any book in the bible… how does one find out if it is to be taken literally, or allegorically?

The question is simple but absurd! An isolated verse is like a grain of sand… impossible to understand…

 

[Candide_West]

The question is simple but absurd! An isolated verse is like a grain of sand… impossible to understand…

There seems to be a lot of comments on this thread to this effect. That we can’t take an individual verse and make it stand alone. Well that’s probably fair enough in itself.*

But the broader question here is if there is an official source which can provide information on interpretation of the bible. For example, if you pick up a decent book on Greek mythology you’ll find innumerable references to where stories are intended to be moral lessons, or allegories, or where they are representations of historical events, political or cultural changes etc. Often certain stories must be read with reference to other stories and the historical background at the time. So the pertinent information is given or referenced.

I can imagine that producing such documentation would be a prodigious task. But if it has been done for the Greek myths then surely it ought to be possible for the bible. So the question is has it been done and if so where?

For an example of where it would be useful take a look at the immaculate misconception thread where there is an ongoing debate about whether the story of Abraham and Isaac is historical or allegorical. There are two conflicting ideas of what the story is and what it means and therefore what lessons to take from it. There must be many such disagreements, so a official interpretation from those considered by your religion to be formally qualified to do so, would be extremely useful in resolution of such questions.

 

[Spock]

There seems to be a lot of comments on this thread to this effect. That we can’t take an individual verse and make it stand alone. Well that’s probably fair enough in itself.*

You know, the funny thing is that I never specified that the verses must be interpreted in and by themselves. The posters who assumed this restriction just sucked it out from their little pinkie finger. I don’t care if they use the full chapter, or something else. Just show the process (not in general, but in detail), how to find out if a certain piece of the bible is literal or allegorical.

For an example of where it would be useful take a look at the immaculate misconception thread where there is an ongoing debate about whether the story of Abraham and Isaac is historical or allegorical. There are two conflicting ideas of what the story is and what it means and therefore what lessons to take from it. There must be many such disagreements, so a official interpretation from those considered by your religion to be formally qualified to do so, would be extremely useful in resolution of such questions.

You are right, it is a very good example. Not even the catholics can agree on many questions like this. And if there is no officially published and officially endorsed analysis, then anyone can take any verse (or chapter) and pronounce: “this is what it means”. And the catholic dissenters never offered an “alternate” interpretation, they just keep mindlessly repeating: “you are not qualified…”. I don’t accept that “argument”, since it is not an argument.

When God personally slaughtered all the people and all the land animals (what happened to the fish, by the way?) it shows God’s incredible cruelty and lack of justice - if the story of the flood is taken literally. I suspect that it was taken literally for a long time. Is there an allegorical interpretation? And if there is, what would it be? How “loving” of God, that he “only” drowned the toddlers and the children, and did not also burn them first? Is that story “really” a glaring tribute to God’s love? Did the drowning people gurgle a hymn for the greater glory of God? Whether that particular story is literal or allegorical, it shows a “side” of God, which is simply cruel, unjust and irrational.

 

[Jesus_123]

… Just show the process (not in general, but in detail), how to find out if a certain piece of the bible is literal or allegorical.

+Nothing whatsoever upon this . . . God’s green earth below . . . or in heaven above . . . is constructed as flat and " one dimensional" . . . everything here on earth . . . including you . . . is intricately wonderfully “multi-dimensional” in nature . . . in your words you are willfully and deliberately rebelling against and resisting the wondrous nature of the . . . **true reality **. . . of all God’s extraordinary creation as you try to reduce and flatten **God **and all His incredible creation into a flat-one-dimensional-state through fantasy mind games . . . you are . . . very petulantly . . . trying to deny and recreate Who our Wonderful Living Eternal God actually is . . . as revealed to us in the Holy Person of . . . **God the Son **. . . Jesus . . . the blessed Christ our Redeemer and Saviour . . . into an imaginary idol-God more to your personal liking through fanciful manipulative delusional reasoning . . .

Christianity . . . as taught by our Holy Mother Church . . . is by no means a “religion” of human reason (ratio) alone . . . or . . . faith (fides) alone . . . at the beginning of Blessed Pope John Paul the Great’s Fides et ratio . . .

IOANNES PAULUS PP. II
FIDES ET RATIO
To the Bishops
of the Catholic Church
on the relationship
between** Faith** and Reason
1998.09.14

Link: vatican.va/edocs/ENG0216/_INDEX.HTM

is recorded a blessing from our highly esteemed Holy Father . . . the Blessed Pope John Paul the Great . . . which brings into focus . . . **human reason ** . . . and its significance in . . . PARTICIPATING WITH . . . God . . . in the salvific nature of the Holy Gift of Christian Faith . . .

“Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of TRUTH; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the TRUTH—in a word, to know HIMSELF—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2).”
​

Continuing on in Fides et ratio, Chapter 1, Section #9 . . .

"…Based upon God’s testimony and enjoying the supernatural assistance of grace,

• FAITH is of an order
  other than
• PHILOSOPHICAL knowledge which depends upon sense perception and experience and which advances by the light of the intellect alone. **
• PHILOSOPHY AND THE SCIENCES** function within the order of natural reason;

while

• FAITH, enlightened and guided by the Spirit, recognizes in the message of salvation the “fullness of grace and truth” (cf. Jn 1:14) which God has willed to reveal in history and definitively through his Son, Jesus Christ (cf. 1 Jn 5:9; Jn 5:31-32)."

:compcoff: Link: vatican.va/edocs/ENG0216/__P1.HTM

. . . :idea: . . .

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,
saith the Lord.”
Isaiah 55:8

"Thy :bible1: word
is a lamp unto my feet,
and a light unto my path"
Psalm 119:105

“Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way?
by taking heed thereto according to
thy :bible1: word.”
Psalm 119:9

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Blessed Lord God in Heaven Above+
. . . thank you Blessed Virgin Mary our Mother+
. . . thank You Holy Mother Church+
. . . thank you blessed Pope John Paul II+​

 

[tonyrey]

But the broader question here is if there is an official source which can provide information on interpretation of the bible. For example, if you pick up a decent book on Greek mythology you’ll find innumerable references to where stories are intended to be moral lessons, or allegories, or where they are representations of historical events, political or cultural changes etc. Often certain stories must be read with reference to other stories and the historical background at the time. So the pertinent information is given or referenced.

I can imagine that producing such documentation would be a prodigious task. But if it has been done for the Greek myths then surely it ought to be possible for the bible. So the question is has it been done and if so where?

Whether it has been done is irrelevant because it is unnecessary. Jesus didn’t write a book but founded a community. The primary purpose of the Bible is provide a metaphysical, historical, allegorical and moral background to the doctrines of the Church. Where there is any doubt about the meaning of the text it should be interpreted in the context of the teaching of Jesus that God is a loving Father who created us for love…

For an example of where it would be useful take a look at the immaculate misconception thread where there is an ongoing debate about whether the story of Abraham and Isaac is historical or allegorical. There are two conflicting ideas of what the story is and what it means and therefore what lessons to take from it. There must be many such disagreements, so a official interpretation from those considered by your religion to be formally qualified to do so, would be extremely useful in resolution of such questions.

There is only one lesson that really matters: the Son was put to death to liberate us from evil with His love.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Whether it has been done is irrelevant because it is unnecessary. Jesus didn’t write a book but founded a community. The primary purpose of the Bible is provide a metaphysical, historical, allegorical and moral background to the doctrines of the Church. .

I agree this is how we use it now, but when the NT was written, the Gospels were to make a record (Luke/Acts) and to evangelize (Matthew and Mark) and John is just mystical. The other parts, Paul’s letters and so on, had specific purpose when they were written for instruction and clarity. The writers themselves didn’t have the intention to create something to be used 2000 years later for guidance, which, IMO, is why Tradition is so important in the Church and we don’t raise Scripture above that. Our teachings are the constant expression of the deposit of faith.

 

[vz71]

Give me specific rules to use, which will lead me to the conclusion to find out which verses are literal - without referring to the mere opinion of of other people?

I think you just completed your circular argument.

You wish to claim mere opinion here.
So if these same people provided a specific rule for this (if X then Y) wouldn’t the rule itself simply be their opinion?

In reducing the real authority here to ‘mere opinion’ you have effectively cut out any authority to provide any answer at all.

This indicates to me that you really do not want an answer at all.

 

[Spock]

I think you just completed your circular argument.

You think incorrectly. I did not even make an argument - maybe you missed that part. I asked a question, and only got evasions. What is “circular” about a question?

You wish to claim mere opinion here.
So if these same people provided a specific rule for this (if X then Y) wouldn’t the rule itself simply be their opinion?

Not necessarily. It all depends on the method itself. If I asked many literary experts how to find out if a literary piece is masterpiece or junk, and they would explain about the choice of words, the adjectives, the originality, the tightness of story, the forming of the characters, etc, etc… that would help me to decide the literary value of a book, it would be an objective, and usable method.

In the current problem, is the flood (for example) to be taken literally, or allegorically? And if it is allegorical, what does it mean? The story is pretty much standalone. The immutable and all knowing God, who saw that the people (all of them, including the toddlers) are beyond redemption decided to drown all of them, along with all the animals (what was their “sin” to deserve such a fate? and what about the fish? hmmm…) except 8 people and some animals… and start the experiment all over again. By the way, the new experiment did not turn out to be better… So is this a literal story? Or is it allegorical? In either case, what does it show except that God is cruel and unjust?

In reducing the real authority here to ‘mere opinion’ you have effectively cut out any authority to provide any answer at all.

What authority? The church is silent. After 2000 years it had not even started on an authoritative list of the different stories within the bible? The posters are the “authority”? Don’t make me laugh… I tried to get an answer from the apologists, but the question was never answered. Looks like they don’t appreciate questions like this… I wonder why?

This indicates to me that you really do not want an answer at all.

I would like to see an answer, just like in many threads before, but I am not going to get any - just like in many threads before. Lots of evasions, nothing else.