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Montie_Claunch
Guest
What would be a good book to read on Mormans? I have heard a lot of conflicting things and a lot of rather bad and/or embarrassing things about them and I am wondering if they are true.
- Status
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majick275
Guest
I guess that would depend on what you are specifically wanting to learn and how much you are willing to read.
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majick275
Guest
If you want an overview of LDS history from multiple viewpoints this isn’t a bad read:
amazon.com/gp/product/1560850078/002-7194842-6019225?v=glance&n=283155
amazon.com/gp/product/1560850078/002-7194842-6019225?v=glance&n=283155
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amgid
Guest
Montie Claunch:
amgid
Why not start with the Book of Mormon. You can also get it for free!
amgid
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Montie_Claunch
Guest
Well, these are the things I have heard,
- They still pratice polygomy (outside the U.S. and inside the U.S. secretly)
- That Women can only get to heaven if they are married to a good mormon husband.
- Something about becoming Gods
O.K. but, it wouldn’t tell me how they interprete it. People take diffrent views of the same bible, well they have a few less books in theirs (except for JW I heard they really screwed the bible up).
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majick275
Guest
Montie Claunch:
Montie Claunch:
Montie Claunch:
Montie Claunch:
For these specific areas I would point you to the LDS website www.lds.org and ask you to read their online scripures Doctrine and Covenants section 132. That’s a good start. If you still aren’t sure then you really have to cover a number of LDS books to get the real story. (Doctrines of Salvation, Journal of discourses, Etc.)
Montie Claunch:
The “main” LDS church that comprises the vast majority of those who identify themselves as “Moromons” does not allow polygamy to be practiced under penalty of excommunication.
Montie Claunch:
sort of… Those worthy women who were faithful and obedient to the LDS scriptures but were unable to marry righteous men on earth will be given in marriage to worthy men in the next life.
Montie Claunch:
Yes. It’s called eternal progression and many of them will skirt this issue with investigators hoping to avoid the topic until one is “converted”.
Montie Claunch:
Therein lies the problem, LDS do not have a catechism so you have to do some looking and expect them to wave off pronouncements by their prophets as “speculation”.
For these specific areas I would point you to the LDS website www.lds.org and ask you to read their online scripures Doctrine and Covenants section 132. That’s a good start. If you still aren’t sure then you really have to cover a number of LDS books to get the real story. (Doctrines of Salvation, Journal of discourses, Etc.)
Montie Claunch:
Exactly. their most essential practices aren’t even mentioned in the BoM. Their missionaries like to deliver the “free” copies so that they can give their presentation to you. ( you won’t learn much doctrine from that either) One of their Apostles, Bruce R. Mconkie wrote a book called Mormon Doctrine some years ago that is about the closest thing to a catechism that they have. I think it’s pretty accurate about what they believe and why but even the LDS will tell you it’s his opinions and NOT “official” doctrine.
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Zakuska
Guest
Montie Claunch:
If an Iraqie Polygamist where to be baptized a Christian would he be forced to Choose one of his wifes and families and cast the rest into the street to beg for food?
460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/arch…122a3p1.htm#460
Speaking of Changing Doctrine!
PS. You can get a free Bible as well.
mormon.org/ecard/create.jsp
- Mormons do not practice Polygamy… if they are found the are excommunicated. (ie no longer mormon)
If an Iraqie Polygamist where to be baptized a Christian would he be forced to Choose one of his wifes and families and cast the rest into the street to beg for food?
- Yes according to the bible… 1 Cor. 11: 11 But this is only the highest heaven. You do not have to be married to enter one of the lower heavens.
- Yep. Just like the Catholic Church.
460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/arch…122a3p1.htm#460
Speaking of Changing Doctrine!
PS. You can get a free Bible as well.
mormon.org/ecard/create.jsp
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majick275
Guest
The RCC doctrine never changed. partaking in the nature of the divine gives a divinity. This is very different than LDS eternal progression.
Look up beatific vision and you’ll see.
The LDS bible is KJV with LDS footnotes. Not so great for Bible study outside LDS circles.
Once again, be wary of Mormons bearing gifts. Don’t eat the Jell-o
Look up beatific vision and you’ll see.
The LDS bible is KJV with LDS footnotes. Not so great for Bible study outside LDS circles.
Once again, be wary of Mormons bearing gifts. Don’t eat the Jell-o
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Zakuska
Guest
Not according to my good Catholic Friend. LDS and Catholic doctrine of Deification is nearly identical.
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silverwings_88
Guest
Actually, a good (but a little biased and not-very-well quoted from the ECF’s) piece on starting to learn about Mormons is “Are Mormons Christian?”.
And they didn’t really save the whole deification until I got converted… But from my last pair of missionaries, they do not seem to touch on it at all, but they are open to talk about it if one knows.
As a Catholic, I always understood though that partaking in the divinity of Christ is how we share in the mediatorship of Christ, the rulership of Christ, the priesthood of Christ, and so forth.
That we share these treasures of glory because of Christ, but ultimately it is Christ who is the essence of these things and without Christ, these things cannot be granted upon us.
Partaking in divinity and becoming a god are two different things, since the notion of the word ‘god’ evokes becoming an infinite eternal being which is omnipresent, etc.
The Book of Mormon, is well written prose-wise, but I still have problems linguistically on how greek words could happen to find itself into a supposed semitic (or related)-language plates.
And they didn’t really save the whole deification until I got converted… But from my last pair of missionaries, they do not seem to touch on it at all, but they are open to talk about it if one knows.
As a Catholic, I always understood though that partaking in the divinity of Christ is how we share in the mediatorship of Christ, the rulership of Christ, the priesthood of Christ, and so forth.
That we share these treasures of glory because of Christ, but ultimately it is Christ who is the essence of these things and without Christ, these things cannot be granted upon us.
Partaking in divinity and becoming a god are two different things, since the notion of the word ‘god’ evokes becoming an infinite eternal being which is omnipresent, etc.
The Book of Mormon, is well written prose-wise, but I still have problems linguistically on how greek words could happen to find itself into a supposed semitic (or related)-language plates.
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majick275
Guest
Well here is a major difference between LDS and Catholic. Where we can say about LDS doctrine “but my freind said…” The Catholics have a catechism. Show me in that and we’ll have something to discuss. That individual Catholics might adopt heresy is nether new nor significant.
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flameburns623
Guest
By non-LDS:
Mormon America: Power and Promise, Richard K. Ostling and Joan K. Ostling, Harper, 1999. Very impartial, much better than some explicitly anti-Mormon books or even most books by investigative journalists–the latter tend mainly to be irreligious/secular and miss a lot because of their biases against relgion in general.
Joseph Smith’s Response to Skepticism, Robert N. Hullinger, Signature Books, 1992
Religious Seekers and the Advent of Mormonism, Dan Vogel, Signature Books, 1989.
Two by a well-know pair of anti-Mormons, which I recommend only for the evidence which their research uncovered, NOT for the interpretations and ‘spin’ which the Tanners put on that evidence:
The Changing World of Mormonism, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Moody Press, 1980.
Mormonism–Shadow or Reality?, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Modern Microfilm Company, 1972.
Several from LDS sources. I really advise people NOT to spend too much time only reading anti-LDS stuff–it is difficult to find material which doesn’t include at least some mistakes or which is tainted by the author’s biases against the LDS Church. If you read anti-LDS material–try to read at least two books by Mormons on the same subject for every ONE book by an ‘Anti’–it will help you keep perspective:
The Articles of Faith by James Talmage
Jesus the Christ, by James Talmage
**A Marvelous Work and a Wonder **by LeGrand Richards
The House of the Lord by James Talmage (Talmage is a classic LDS writer, greatly revered).
You May Claim the Blessings of The Holy Temple, (alternative title: The Holy Temple), Boyd K. Packer, Bookcraft, 1980
**Church History in the Fulness of Times **distributed by the LDS Church (Church Distribution)
Gospel Principles Church Distribution
An Approach to the Book of Mormon by Hugh Nibley
The Mormon Doctrine of Deity by B.H Roberts (another much-revered classic LDS apologist–who is rumored to have suffered doubts about his Mormon faith in his declining years, btw).
Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism, Robert L. Bushman, University of Illinois Press, 1984
Encylopedia of Mormonism (Not suggesting anyone read the whole set but selected articles as needed)
**The Work and the Glory **Gerald Lund (9-volume fictional account of Joseph Smith–good intro to LDS history).
Church magazines:
Ensign: Also available for reading on-line at: lds.org/gospellibrary/pdfmagazine/0,7779,592-6-1,00.html
Meridian Magazine: An on-line magazine and excellent way to stay current on happenings in the LDS Church. NOT an official LDS-sponsored magazine to my knowledge but very conservative and faith-affirming. See the following URL: meridianmagazine.com/
Videos (for those who prefer to learn by watching and listening rather than by reading–all of these are basically LDS-church sponsored so will be faith-affirming, not controversial or challenging):
The Work and the Glory: Video retelling of Lund’s series of novels.
The Mountain of the Lord: Very enjoyable if rather heavy-handed acount of the building of the SLC temple. Told as if through the eyes of the presiding LDS prophet at the time the temple was completed, Wilford Woodruff. Ducks the issue of polygamy–very tear-jerking to see Woodruff grieve over the loss of his first wife but he neve mentions that he had four OTHER wives.
Come Unto Me: Touches on some central LDS doctrines and themes. Not one video but several, and of varying quality.
How Rare a Possession: On the Book of Mormon. Also a compendium of several short videos.
**Legacy: **At one time, this was shown in LDS Visitor’s Centers and is very well done. Is a ‘composite’ of several people but mainly the life of one early LDS woman. Manages to tell the story of one of Smith’s polygamous wives while somehow never mentioning that she was in fact once married to Smith.
You’ll find many of these in a public library or available there via inter-library loan. No need to buy them all nor to read them all: you simply want to gain real insight into the mind and spirituality of Mormonism. These, plus the LDS ‘Standard Works’ (Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, along with the King James Bible) will give you a good grasp of basic Mormonism.
Mormon America: Power and Promise, Richard K. Ostling and Joan K. Ostling, Harper, 1999. Very impartial, much better than some explicitly anti-Mormon books or even most books by investigative journalists–the latter tend mainly to be irreligious/secular and miss a lot because of their biases against relgion in general.
Joseph Smith’s Response to Skepticism, Robert N. Hullinger, Signature Books, 1992
Religious Seekers and the Advent of Mormonism, Dan Vogel, Signature Books, 1989.
Two by a well-know pair of anti-Mormons, which I recommend only for the evidence which their research uncovered, NOT for the interpretations and ‘spin’ which the Tanners put on that evidence:
The Changing World of Mormonism, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Moody Press, 1980.
Mormonism–Shadow or Reality?, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Modern Microfilm Company, 1972.
Several from LDS sources. I really advise people NOT to spend too much time only reading anti-LDS stuff–it is difficult to find material which doesn’t include at least some mistakes or which is tainted by the author’s biases against the LDS Church. If you read anti-LDS material–try to read at least two books by Mormons on the same subject for every ONE book by an ‘Anti’–it will help you keep perspective:
The Articles of Faith by James Talmage
Jesus the Christ, by James Talmage
**A Marvelous Work and a Wonder **by LeGrand Richards
The House of the Lord by James Talmage (Talmage is a classic LDS writer, greatly revered).
You May Claim the Blessings of The Holy Temple, (alternative title: The Holy Temple), Boyd K. Packer, Bookcraft, 1980
**Church History in the Fulness of Times **distributed by the LDS Church (Church Distribution)
Gospel Principles Church Distribution
An Approach to the Book of Mormon by Hugh Nibley
The Mormon Doctrine of Deity by B.H Roberts (another much-revered classic LDS apologist–who is rumored to have suffered doubts about his Mormon faith in his declining years, btw).
Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism, Robert L. Bushman, University of Illinois Press, 1984
Encylopedia of Mormonism (Not suggesting anyone read the whole set but selected articles as needed)
**The Work and the Glory **Gerald Lund (9-volume fictional account of Joseph Smith–good intro to LDS history).
Church magazines:
Ensign: Also available for reading on-line at: lds.org/gospellibrary/pdfmagazine/0,7779,592-6-1,00.html
Meridian Magazine: An on-line magazine and excellent way to stay current on happenings in the LDS Church. NOT an official LDS-sponsored magazine to my knowledge but very conservative and faith-affirming. See the following URL: meridianmagazine.com/
Videos (for those who prefer to learn by watching and listening rather than by reading–all of these are basically LDS-church sponsored so will be faith-affirming, not controversial or challenging):
The Work and the Glory: Video retelling of Lund’s series of novels.
The Mountain of the Lord: Very enjoyable if rather heavy-handed acount of the building of the SLC temple. Told as if through the eyes of the presiding LDS prophet at the time the temple was completed, Wilford Woodruff. Ducks the issue of polygamy–very tear-jerking to see Woodruff grieve over the loss of his first wife but he neve mentions that he had four OTHER wives.
Come Unto Me: Touches on some central LDS doctrines and themes. Not one video but several, and of varying quality.
How Rare a Possession: On the Book of Mormon. Also a compendium of several short videos.
**Legacy: **At one time, this was shown in LDS Visitor’s Centers and is very well done. Is a ‘composite’ of several people but mainly the life of one early LDS woman. Manages to tell the story of one of Smith’s polygamous wives while somehow never mentioning that she was in fact once married to Smith.
You’ll find many of these in a public library or available there via inter-library loan. No need to buy them all nor to read them all: you simply want to gain real insight into the mind and spirituality of Mormonism. These, plus the LDS ‘Standard Works’ (Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, along with the King James Bible) will give you a good grasp of basic Mormonism.
Z
Zakuska
Guest
majick275,
Yes they do… and he is a Published scholar who uses Cathecisms both new and Ancient. Even the new Cathecism of V II has made the change. Here are some of the quotes he has provided me. BTW he’s in the process of writting a book on the subject.
Yes they do… and he is a Published scholar who uses Cathecisms both new and Ancient. Even the new Cathecism of V II has made the change. Here are some of the quotes he has provided me. BTW he’s in the process of writting a book on the subject.
JPII
CS Lewis
Z
Zakuska
Guest
Kevin Graham has a Bunch Here:
tektonics.org/mordef/deify.html
Some more recent ones: ( I beleive these people are Catholic):
G. H. Joyce
tektonics.org/mordef/deify.html
All these Church Fathers beleived in the deification of man.
Some more recent ones: ( I beleive these people are Catholic):
G. H. Joyce
Matthias Joseph Scheeben
Lugwig Ott
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Zakuska
Guest
George D. Smith
Add to this the words of St. Thomas Aquinas:
The notorious Christian author C.S. Lewis recently wrote that:
Z
Zakuska
Guest
Irenaeus of Lyons [ca. 180 A.D.] said that:
78 2 Pt 1:4.
79 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 19, 1: PG 7/1, 939.
80 St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3: PG 25, 192B.
81 St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4.
Saint Clement of Alexandria wrote:
Saint Justin Martyr said that men
Saint Athanasius who was argueably the founder of the Trinity doctrine stated that:
Saint Augustine, the greatest of all Christian fathers stated that:
And you can’t forget the current Catechism!
Vatican Cathecism
78 2 Pt 1:4.
79 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 19, 1: PG 7/1, 939.
80 St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3: PG 25, 192B.
81 St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4.
Z
Zakuska
Guest
The same way french words found their way in to the BOM and the Bible before freench was even a language.
Its called translation.
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majick275
Guest
Zak, You seem to be misunderstanding the Catholic of deification. First of all CS Lewis is not a good source for Catholic doctrine and just because someone wrote or is writing a book doesn’t make them one either. Shall I proclaim Ed Decker an expert on Mormonism? I think not.
It’s good you refernce the catechism becuase that IS a good source. Notice exactly what it says in those passages. You seem to like Wiki alot look up beatific vision there:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatific_vision
You see Catholics have always believed that some of Gods creations (mainly angels and men) are so beloved by him that we are “called” his children. that doesn’t change that fact that we are creations of his. When we are brought into his presence to dwell his divinity is so great that “deifies” us. I am not the best one to explain this. (maybe arieh would be) But I’ll try: Imagine a metal poker being placed in the flames within a fireplace. The longer it stays in the flame the hotter it gets, after awhile it starts to glow. It has now taken on many of the visual and temperature characteristics of the fire by virtue of being in it. The poker is still just a piece of metal though and if it is not IN the flame it quickly loses those flame-like characterisitcs. So it is with us. When we dwell in Gods holy presence we acquire a holiness and many other godlike characterisitcs. We are still just people though and if we weren’t in his presence we would quickly lose those divine attributes. Try to look at it objectively rahter than trough the lens of Mormonism. WE don’t see humans as eternally pre-existent “intelligences” who became the literal CHILDREN of God when his wife(s) spiritually “birthed” us. WE don’t see ourselves as the same type of being, an embryonic God if you will. WE see ourselves as CREATIONS. God MADE us.
It’s good you refernce the catechism becuase that IS a good source. Notice exactly what it says in those passages. You seem to like Wiki alot look up beatific vision there:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatific_vision
You see Catholics have always believed that some of Gods creations (mainly angels and men) are so beloved by him that we are “called” his children. that doesn’t change that fact that we are creations of his. When we are brought into his presence to dwell his divinity is so great that “deifies” us. I am not the best one to explain this. (maybe arieh would be) But I’ll try: Imagine a metal poker being placed in the flames within a fireplace. The longer it stays in the flame the hotter it gets, after awhile it starts to glow. It has now taken on many of the visual and temperature characteristics of the fire by virtue of being in it. The poker is still just a piece of metal though and if it is not IN the flame it quickly loses those flame-like characterisitcs. So it is with us. When we dwell in Gods holy presence we acquire a holiness and many other godlike characterisitcs. We are still just people though and if we weren’t in his presence we would quickly lose those divine attributes. Try to look at it objectively rahter than trough the lens of Mormonism. WE don’t see humans as eternally pre-existent “intelligences” who became the literal CHILDREN of God when his wife(s) spiritually “birthed” us. WE don’t see ourselves as the same type of being, an embryonic God if you will. WE see ourselves as CREATIONS. God MADE us.
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arieh0310
Guest
The only time I sound good is when I stand on the shoulders of giants
*
2. But then who are those gods, or where are they, of whom God is the true God? Another Psalm saith, “God hath stood in the synagogue of gods, but in the midst He judgeth gods.” As yet we know not whether perchance any gods be congregated in heaven, and in their congregation, for this is “in the synagogue,” God hath stood to judge. See in the same Psalm those to whom he saith, “I have said, Ye are gods, and children of the Highest all; but ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.” It is evident then, that He hath called men gods, that are deified of His Grace, not born of His Substance. For He doth justify, who is just through His own self, and not of another; and He doth deify who is God through Himself, not by the partaking of another. But He that justifieth doth Himself deify, in that by justifying He doth make sons of God. “For He hath given them power to become the sons of God.” If we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods: but this is the effect of Grace adopting, not of nature generating. For the only Son of God, God, and one God with the Father, Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, was in the beginning the Word, and the Word with God, the Word God.
The rest that are made gods, are made by His own Grace, are not born of His Substance, that they should be the same as He, but that by favour they should come to Him, and be fellow-heirs with Christ. For so great is the love in Him the Heir, that He hath willed to have fellow-heirs. What covetous man would will this, to have fellow-heirs? But even one that is found so to will, will share with them the inheritance, the sharer having less himself, than if he had possessed alone: but the inheritance wherein we are fellow-heirs of Christ, is not lessened by multitude of possessors, nor is it made narrower by the number of fellow-heirs: but is as great for many as it is for few, as great for individuals as for all. “See,” saith the Apostle, “what love God hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called, and be, the sons of God.” *
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arieh0310
Guest
cont…
*And in another place, “Dearly beloved, we are the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be.” We are therefore in hope, not yet in substance.
“But we know,” he saith, “that when He shall have appeared, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.” The Only Son is like Him by birth, we like by seeing. For we are not like in such sort as He, who is the same as He is by whom He was begotten: for we are like, not equal: He, because equal, is therefore like. We have heard who are the gods that being made are justified, because they are called the sons of God: and who are the gods that are not Gods, to whom the God of gods is terrible? For another Psalm saith, “He is terrible over all gods.” And as if thou shouldest enquire, what gods? He saith, “For all the gods of the nations are devils.” To the gods of the nations, to the devils, terrible: to the gods made by Himself, to sons, lovely. Furthermore, I find both of them confessing the Majesty of God, both the devils confessed Christ, and the faithful confessed Christ. “Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God,” said Peter. “We know who Thou art, Thou art the Son of God,” said the devils. A like confession I hear, but like love I find not; nay even here love, there fear. To whom therefore He is lovely, the same are sons; to whom He is terrible, are not sons; to whom He is lovely, the same He hath made gods; those to whom He is terrible He doth prove not to be gods. For these are made gods, those are reputed gods; these Truth maketh gods, those error doth so account. *
*And in another place, “Dearly beloved, we are the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be.” We are therefore in hope, not yet in substance.
“But we know,” he saith, “that when He shall have appeared, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.” The Only Son is like Him by birth, we like by seeing. For we are not like in such sort as He, who is the same as He is by whom He was begotten: for we are like, not equal: He, because equal, is therefore like. We have heard who are the gods that being made are justified, because they are called the sons of God: and who are the gods that are not Gods, to whom the God of gods is terrible? For another Psalm saith, “He is terrible over all gods.” And as if thou shouldest enquire, what gods? He saith, “For all the gods of the nations are devils.” To the gods of the nations, to the devils, terrible: to the gods made by Himself, to sons, lovely. Furthermore, I find both of them confessing the Majesty of God, both the devils confessed Christ, and the faithful confessed Christ. “Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God,” said Peter. “We know who Thou art, Thou art the Son of God,” said the devils. A like confession I hear, but like love I find not; nay even here love, there fear. To whom therefore He is lovely, the same are sons; to whom He is terrible, are not sons; to whom He is lovely, the same He hath made gods; those to whom He is terrible He doth prove not to be gods. For these are made gods, those are reputed gods; these Truth maketh gods, those error doth so account. *
- Status