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dotcomrefugee
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I aneurysm’d.
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Viki63
Guest
I havent read through all these posts, but can’t believe no one recommended reading Stephen Graydanus’ article on decentfilms.com:
decentfilms.com/sections/articles/twilight.html
He points out, as Matrix Refugee does, that the hero is more like an obsessive stalker than anything else: controlling, possessive, obsessed. I won’t let my daughter see the movie or read the book. Hard enough to get her to read anything anyway, when she does it needs to be something of good quality.
Our culture teaches girls very little about assertiveness, protecting oneself against abuse, and deceitful lovers. This series just adds to the confusion.
decentfilms.com/sections/articles/twilight.html
He points out, as Matrix Refugee does, that the hero is more like an obsessive stalker than anything else: controlling, possessive, obsessed. I won’t let my daughter see the movie or read the book. Hard enough to get her to read anything anyway, when she does it needs to be something of good quality.
Our culture teaches girls very little about assertiveness, protecting oneself against abuse, and deceitful lovers. This series just adds to the confusion.
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praisethestorm9
Guest
I have been reading the twilight series and I think it is in no way innapropriate it is beautifully written and in no way made me feel insulted nor did I read anything that made me sit back and think “maybe I should put this down?”
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danaemariejoan
Guest
I have read all of the books and are very proper except for the whole vampire thing (even though these vamps aare “good” because they’re “vegetarians”. They only drink animal blood.)
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stevita
Guest
I read the first book and did not enjoy it because I can’t stand drippy love stories. Another thing that bothered me about it was that Edward and Bella were obviously “in lust” rather than “in love”. There was no substance to their relationship, and that irked me.
This link explains in great depth one reader’s position on the series. There are a lot of spoilers, so be warned.
gaiaonline.com/forum/recycle-bin/edward-cullen-abusive-boyfriend-eclipse-spoilers/t.26745143/
That said, if you enjoy it, you enjoy it. It all depends on how you look at it.
This link explains in great depth one reader’s position on the series. There are a lot of spoilers, so be warned.
gaiaonline.com/forum/recycle-bin/edward-cullen-abusive-boyfriend-eclipse-spoilers/t.26745143/
That said, if you enjoy it, you enjoy it. It all depends on how you look at it.
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Dtmccameron
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Yeah, recently whilst walking in the store, I happened by the book section and saw it, and said, “Dang it! Let’s see what all the fuss is about!”How old is your daughter? I never heard of the author, so went to Amazon and found this from the first of her novels. (and they’re classified horror for teens)
Amazon.com
“Softly he brushed my cheek, then held my face between his marble hands. ‘Be very still,’ he whispered, as if I wasn’t already frozen. Slowly, never moving his eyes from mine, he leaned toward me. Then abruptly, but very gently, he rested his cold cheek against the hollow at the base of my throat.”
As Shakespeare knew, love burns high when thwarted by obstacles. In Twilight, an exquisite fantasy by Stephenie Meyer, readers discover a pair of lovers who are supremely star-crossed. Bella adores beautiful Edward, and he returns her love. But Edward is having a hard time controlling the blood lust she arouses in him, because–he’s a vampire. At any moment, the intensity of their passion could drive him to kill her, and he agonizes over the danger. But, Bella would rather be dead than part from Edward, so she risks her life to stay near him, and the novel burns with the erotic tension of their dangerous and necessarily chaste relationship.
Doesn’t sound like something I’d want a young teen reading…
So I flipped it open to a random page, only to read about some big, wide shoulder, perfectly muscled, strong jawed, tanned…blah, blah, blah. It read like a romance novel. Harlequin aimed at kids. Humbug.
decentfilms.com/sections/articles/twilight.html
*"Making matters worse, as Gina R. Dalfonzo (National Review) notes in a valuable essay, Edward isn’t actually the kind of guy you want to trust implicitly. On the contrary, he can be more like a creepy, controlling abuser than a loving and respectful beau:
He spies on Bella while she sleeps, eavesdrops on her conversations, reads her classmates’ minds, forges her signature, tries to dictate her choice of friends, encourages her to deceive her father, disables her truck, has his family hold her at his house against her will, and enters her house when no one’s there — all because, he explains, he wants her to be safe. He warns Bella how dangerous he is, but gets “furious” at anyone else who tries to warn or protect her. He even drags her to the prom against her expressed wishes. … It gets even worse after the wedding night in Breaking Dawn, when Bella finds herself trying to cover up a multitude of bruises left by the super-strong Edward. That scene, which Meyer treats with appalling lightness — “This is really nothing,” Bella tells her remorseful husband, insisting that the experience was “wonderful and perfect” — should send a chill down the spine of any parent with a daughter."*
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RSD
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Hello everyone. I originally found this forum by looking for a place where people were talking about the Twilight books from a Catholic perspective. I have read the whole series over and over. I really like it. I would not try to talk anyone else into liking it if they don’t, but I must admit that I am surprised by the tone of some of the objections. Yes, Bella, Edward and Jacob all behave sometimes in ways that are not good examples for our children. The same could be said of Romeo and Juliet, of Eliza Bennet, and especially Lydia Bennet, and Wickham in Pride and Prejudice, of Hamlet, of Othello, Peter the High King, and especially Edmund, even Joan of Arc had some moments when she disobeyed God. If you don’t like the Twilight books just as a matter of taste I can understand, but if you don’t approve of them because you think that not every character behaves correctly all the time, seriously, what do you let your children read?
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Free_Radical
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I’ve read the books to screen for my teenage daughter, and I think this is an over-reaction. Edward resisted sleeping with Bella all along because he was afraid he would hurt her. Not only that, it was Edward who insisted that they not sleep together until they were married–he is a very old-fashioned vampire! Bella was the one who reassured Edward that it would be okay and really wanted the human sexual experience before she “transformed.” Edward was afraid to sleep with her again after their honeymoon night because he felt terrible about the bruises. While there was romance and sensuality, there were no explicit sex scenes. Remember, it is fiction and fantasy–an escape. I see it as a sophisticated Goosebumps. I actually enjoyed the books!
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Dtmccameron
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So, if your daughter came home one day covered with bruises from her ‘over zealous’ husband, who was *very *sorry, it’d be alright? Sorry doesn’t cut it. What’s more, Edward showed himself to be an abuser before he ever laid a hand on her.
And I see it as Harlequin for Teens (But that is just my very humble opinion). Yes, we have seen flawed characters in the past (replying to RSD), but you could never convince me that the Twilight series of books are morality tales. They’re stories, fantasies, which delight the sensablities of women.
Anything wrong with that? In and of itself, maybe not. But I greatly questing whether or not they are in any way wholesome.
Even in Shakespeare, bad deeds reap bad fruit. Wickedness led to destruction. Everything was ordered, even if order only seemed to come at the end. Nowadays, there is only Chaos, and with moral relativism running about, bad deeds are portrayed as good ones, or at very least neccessary.
What’s more, many have said that Edward loves this Bella girl, but has anyone considered that by her becoming and undead thing, she can no longer enter heaven? By his actions, she is damned! How loving is that?!?!?
Love seeks Heaven, not Hell!!!
(Perhaps because it is from Heaven.)
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Galandriel
Guest
just to point out some facts:
Edward threw everything out the window and was ready to do what Bella wanted at the end of book 3, remember? So out with the old fashioned line and saving sex for marriage because that point is moot.
Edward still wasn’t convinced which was stronger; his love or his lust for her blood until the end of book 1. He wanted to kill her more than love her throughout the whole book and Bella understood that and played vampire roulette.
Gross.
Would people just rather forget those disturbing things and focus on the sappy happy ever after?
Not even a fight at the end of book 4!
Overall: I think Twilight is over-rated.
Edward threw everything out the window and was ready to do what Bella wanted at the end of book 3, remember? So out with the old fashioned line and saving sex for marriage because that point is moot.
Edward still wasn’t convinced which was stronger; his love or his lust for her blood until the end of book 1. He wanted to kill her more than love her throughout the whole book and Bella understood that and played vampire roulette.
Gross.
Would people just rather forget those disturbing things and focus on the sappy happy ever after?
Not even a fight at the end of book 4!
Overall: I think Twilight is over-rated.
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RSD
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Free_Radical
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Again, the book is fiction and fantasy. I read it to be entertained. I wouldn’t call it entirely “wholesome,” but an escape. Much of the book is a battle against temptation. Edward was always tempted by Bella’s blood and then fell in love with her and was constantly trying to resist his urges. At the end of book 3, he was ready to give in, but Bella, out of love, agreed to marry him. She was strong when he was weak and vice versa. There needs to be conflict for a book to be interesting. A book with characters who are always morally correct would be very boring.
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Dtmccameron
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Chesterton wrote that “You can write a book about a man amongst dragons, but not about dragons amongst dragons”.
Splashing everything in a coat of grey certainly makes things more intriguing, but not neccessarily more interesting. I personally get bored when there are no good guys. Simply conflicted anti-heroes/villains…All in all, nothing in the least bit makes me in anyway feel for the characters.
Further more, should we be indulging escapist tendancies? After all, most drug addicts do it to escape. And the masturbators’ brains are given a dose of endorphines when they commit their sin, as do pornographers. Pornography in itself is an escape, a fantasy. And not in the least bit wholesome at that!
I imagine similar chemicals are released when a person reads a good book, or smut, or what have you. Either way, if it is Truth that sets us free, it’s then the lie which enslaves us.
No, no one could believe what’s in these stories, but the ideas presented within them, the depiction of human beings, behavior. Of value, of life, of death, these are the things people pick up.
Heck! Look at Disney’s version of “Beauty and the Beast”!!!
Not all monsters look monsterous! Don’t judge a book by its cover!
So what morals did Twilight give us, hmmm? Don’t eat eachother? “True love conquers all”? If you truly love someone, you’ll be willing to completely dominate every aspect of their lives, and forbid their association with anyone else, forge their letters, lie, stalk, manipulate, control? Turn them into a walking corpse?
The fact of the matter is, the boy is a pedophile, and the girl a necrophiliac. (Cause, y’know, he’s dead, and has been around way longer than her.)
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mdr
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Dtmccameron, can you clarify something for me? What you wrote, above, sure looks as though you’ve stated that any activity (other than prayer, perhaps) which causes endorphins to be released is *per se *an enslavement because one experiences pleasure from a source other than the Almighty. Is that what you meant?
Please correct me if I’m reading you wrong. I’ll hold back any comments on what I think you said until I’m sure that what I think you said is what you really meant to say…
TIA-
-mdr
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Dtmccameron
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Oh, my! No, I most certainly didn’t mean to come off that way! Now, five years ago maybe, I might’ve held that idea…Maybe I still do. After all, there are many wholesome pleasures God gives us. A cool breeze. The warmth of the sun, or of the hug of another. The taste and satisfaction of food, the rest of sleep.Dtmccameron, can you clarify something for me? What you wrote, above, sure looks as though you’ve stated that any activity (other than prayer, perhaps) which causes endorphins to be released is *per se *an enslavement because one experiences pleasure from a source other than the Almighty. Is that what you meant?
Please correct me if I’m reading you wrong. I’ll hold back any comments on what I think you said until I’m sure that what I think you said is what you really meant to say…
TIA-
-mdr
Though I do believe that all of God’s gifts can be perverted, and therefore, could enslave us in some way.
So, let that be my satement. Not that everything is bad, but has the potential to be so.
Somethings, are, however, always bad.
I liken these books to Twinkies. They ain’t gonna kill ya, but they’re not any good for you either.
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RSD
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Actually, I this is not the discussion I was hoping to have. I don’t really want to argue whether the books are good and worth reading. It’s too late for me. I have read the whole series numerous times, loaned out my books to get other people started on the series, and started a discussion specially for Catholic homeschooling teens who have read the books and enjoyed them. I was hoping to find other intelligent thoughtful Catholics who also enjoyed the books who could discuss themes and issues with me. I imagine in just a few years I will be able to take a college course on Stephenie Meyer, but right now I am looking for more informal, but informative, (name removed by moderator)ut to help me think through the value of the books.
For instance, after the second or third time I read the series I became very conscious of the fact that Edward never got annoyed or angry with Bella, except when he thought she was not taking care of herself like she should. I started thinking about all the things I get angry with people about, people I love. Now, before I express any anger or annoyance to my family, I try to ask myself “Would Edward get angry at Bella over that?” And the answer is “no”. I suppose if I were holy enough I could similarly ask myself “Would St. Joseph get angry with our Blessed Mother over that?”, but somehow that does not have the same emotional effect on me. I have lived inside Bella’s head, and shared here experiences, for many hours. I have not had the same experience with any of the great saints, nor could I. This is an area where fiction is stronger than truth. I could never know as much about a real person (never this side of Heaven) as I can about a fictional person. That is why we can judge a fictional person in a way we are never allowed to judge a real person, and we can learn something from these judgements.
So, anybody else out there want to share what they LIKE about the books?
For instance, after the second or third time I read the series I became very conscious of the fact that Edward never got annoyed or angry with Bella, except when he thought she was not taking care of herself like she should. I started thinking about all the things I get angry with people about, people I love. Now, before I express any anger or annoyance to my family, I try to ask myself “Would Edward get angry at Bella over that?” And the answer is “no”. I suppose if I were holy enough I could similarly ask myself “Would St. Joseph get angry with our Blessed Mother over that?”, but somehow that does not have the same emotional effect on me. I have lived inside Bella’s head, and shared here experiences, for many hours. I have not had the same experience with any of the great saints, nor could I. This is an area where fiction is stronger than truth. I could never know as much about a real person (never this side of Heaven) as I can about a fictional person. That is why we can judge a fictional person in a way we are never allowed to judge a real person, and we can learn something from these judgements.
So, anybody else out there want to share what they LIKE about the books?
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mdr
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Thanks so much for the clarification!
As far as escapism goes, I keep a book at the dining table for solitary meals - it gives me a few minutes’ respite from the daily routine, at a time when I just don’t have the energy and focus for much beyond fluff. Light fiction, popular nonfiction like Malcolm Gladwell (sometimes - sometimes even that requires more brain than I can spare), fun-fact books like “Don’t Know Much About Geography” - you get the picture. Keeps me out of the 5:00 news and more-or-less functional.
I honestly don’t see the same harmful elements in the Twilight series that you’ve mentioned. It seems that some fictional themes touch a nerve in some readers, and for them it is wiser to stay away from anything that harkens back to their experiences.
I liken it to alcohol: for most people, a little bit once in a while does no harm, but for those with a genetic predisposition to addiction, a little bit can open the door to a great deal of harm. (I see that in my own family - Grandma smoked VERY heavily for decades, enough to make me not even want to try smoking, and half of my sibs also smoke. I suspect we carry a tendency to addiction in some form, also.)
Anyway, I can agree to disagree.
Peace-
-mdr
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mdr
Guest
One thing I liked, though others may not agree, is that the author didn’t minimize the temptation to sexual sin. She honestly showed how easy it is to be tempted, how hard it can be to resist, yet how well worth the effort.
Edward was more tempted by Bella’s blood than her body, at first, and his restraint first seemed more motivated by I-can’t-lose-control-or-I-might-accidentally-kill-you than sex-without-marriage-is-wrong. Once his moral scruples come to light, Bella is nonplussed - nothing in her upbringing has taught her that marriage is permanent or necessary. It takes a lot of persuading on Edward’s part for her to agree to do things in the right order: marriage, then consummation.
Even though Edward isn’t sure he and his kind still have souls, he is sure that Bella has one and isn’t willing to jeopardize it. Bella only agrees to marriage if Edward will then agree to transform her into a vampire. He’s not so enamored of this idea, and he offers to give in to her demand for intercourse (nice turnabout, the girl pressuring the guy), hoping to distract her from wanting to be a vampire. By this time, though, Bella has accepted his scruples and resists temptation for his sake, even though she doesn’t believe in it herself. She’s willing to sacrifice her desires in order to protect his morals.
BTW, Bella also points out that Edward must unconsciously believe he still has a soul, based on his behavior when he thought she was dead.
So, as far as chastity goes, they basically make the right decisions for the right reasons, even though they’re not always both “on board” until the end of the 3rd book. They take turns being strong for one another in resisting temptation.
I like that example, because I don’t think it does any good to downplay the strength of the feelings people experience, whether of love and desire or of lust. IMO young people who are beginning to have feelings of this kind are better served by examples of “wow, this isn’t easy, but I can handle it” than “la la la, I’m so pure I wouldn’t even think of such things.”
OK, that was long-winded
…hope it was more along the lines of what you were looking for.-mdr
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RSD
Guest
Yes. Thank you.I like that example, because I don’t think it does any good to downplay the strength of the feelings people experience, whether of love and desire or of lust. IMO young people who are beginning to have feelings of this kind are better served by examples of “wow, this isn’t easy, but I can handle it” than “la la la, I’m so pure I wouldn’t even think of such things.”
OK, that was long-winded
-mdr
Anyone else?
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AmberDale
Guest
I loved these books, as I’ve said in my other posts on it. I didn’t reply earlier, because I don’t want to get into arguments with people about whether they are good or not. Same thing goes with Harry Potter, I love them. I’ve read the Twilight and Potter books ALL several times, and am excited for all the movies.
I liked the books a lot. I understand that vampires are inherently evil, the fictional creatures they are. But the Cullens do what they can to NOT be AS evil. I myself am a sinner fallen from grace, who does what I can to walk away from sin.
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