Born-again Christians

[stevekehl]

Read the first part of Chapter 3 of the Gospel of John, that’s where the born again crowd get their self description from. It applies to all saved Christians though, Catholics just don’t tend to fixate on the phrase “born again”.

It’s like the phrase “Bible believing” Christian. If you’re a Christian, then of course you believe the Bible but some folk need to self identify with their own special phrase and sometimes it catches on enough that it becomes like a little sub denomination.

The born again crowd have made their own little religion of the passage at the beginning of John, Chapter 3. They like to challenge other people with, “What does it mean to be born again?” and if you don’t answer their way, it’s supposed to mean you’re not born again and therefore, not saved.

Don’t buy into their schtick. You do need to be born again. But don’t let anyone tell you that you aren’t just because you haven’t made a religion out of their favorite passage.

There’s more to it than one verse. Jesus talked about the need to become a new creation to house the new Spirit.
Matthew 9:17 Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved."
Mark 2:21 No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. If he does, the patch tears away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear is made.
The aposlte Paul continued this theme in some of his letters.
2Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
Galatians 6:15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Other apostles wrote about how becoming a Christian is like a new birth.
1Peter 1:23 Do this because God has given you new birth by his message that lives on forever.
James 1:18 He wanted us to be his own special people, and so he sent the true message to give us new birth.
1John 4:7 My dear friends, we must love each other. Love comes from God, and when we love each other, it shows that we have been given new life. We are now God’s children, and we know him.

The phrase born again simply means that a person cannot come to know Jesus and remain the same person. It’s not about answering any questions except, “Do you know Jesus?” People can know about Jesus, but don’t really know Him. Being born again is to suddenly see Jesus in a new and personal way. Sometimes those who have been in church their whole lives have a hard time understanding what this means. A lot of people feel uncomfortable about born agains because they feel more comfortable with a religion they can measure, how many years you have attended church, how many classes you have taken, how many perfect attendance pins do you have, how many hours of penance have you performed.
Calling being born a gain a schtick may make some feel good by belittling others, but you can’t fake your faith where God is concerned.

 

[babylonsfalling]

You have made uncharitable accusations at me. I never once was judgmental of other Christians or other denominations, you projected those feelings on what I wrote. Pointing out a problem (the large amounts of nominal Christians)]<—That’s obviously a judgment about “large amounts” of Christians being nominal

** is not judging anyone.** <—It’s not any one person specifically but as I said, it’s about large amounts of Christians in general.

I was explaining the historical significance of a term like “Full Gospel”. The fact is, despite what you might think, “Full Gospel” churches arose around a time when the way God worked in the Bible was being challenged by both conservative and liberal Protestantism. Today, there are some Protestants who don’t even believe that everything in the Bible is historical fact, and you are sitting here arguing with me over whether some Christians don’t believe in the miraculous anymore . There are Protestants who, in direct contradiction of God’s Holy Word, are ordaining and marrying practicing homosexuals, and you are telling me that it is impossible that there are Christians who don’t believe that God can perform a miracle like he did and on the scale he did in the Bible <—That’s what I was telling you?! REALLY!? Where did I tell you that…it should be easy for you to find.

I gave you a reasoned explanation for why people choose the name that they do, you are only able to accuse them of looking down on other Christians. Some do, some don’t. How is that different from any other group of Christians?

I’ve said what I have to say. I have tried to be fair and talk to you reasonably, but it seems all you can see is the negative. You make broad assumptions about whole groups of people.

It’s very easy to argue against things like homosexual marriage or anything else you disagree with WITHOUT giving oneself or one’s church some name that “distinguishes” itself against other churches and I somehow doubt that folk who choose pretentious sounding names are doing it because of homosexuals.

 

[ltwin]

It’s very easy to argue against things like homosexual marriage or anything else you disagree with WITHOUT giving oneself or one’s church some name that “distinguishes” itself against other churches and I somehow doubt that folk who choose pretentious sounding names are doing it because of homosexuals.

You missed the entire point I was making. If someone cannot respect what the Bible says about homosexuality, that it is sin, and instead decides to call it something holy, which some churches are doing now, then there is nothing stopping someone from discounting the miraculous in the Bible.

If someone does not believe that the creation account of Adam and Eve was a historical event or that Joshua and the battle of Jericho happened just as the Bible describes, then there is nothing stopping them from believing that the miracles of Jesus are not real but metaphorical. That was the point I was making.

Both of these were mentioned in response to you asserting that there was no reason for “Full Gospel” churches to distinguish themselves from other Christians, because other Christians still believe in miracles, etc. What I’m telling you is that there are Christians who don’t believe in the reliability of the Bible, much less current or biblical miracles.

 

[guanophore]

Scott Hahn points out that charismatic grace is a gift. There are other graces as taught by the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. Scott says that Sanctifying grace is a greater grace. He states " I would rather have one ounce of Sanctifying grace than a ton of Charismatic grace" or something like that. Scott points out that Corinth was a young Church and that Charisms are a sign of youthful Christianity. As we mature we tend to seek other graces. Paul does not speak of his charismatic gifts much. In Corinth he does but after that not much. Would you not agree in reading Paul, that he was on fire, and yet in a different way?

I think Paul was a charismatic “full Gospel” sort.

1 Cor 14:17-18
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all;

Acts 16:25-27

25 But about midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26 and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and every one’s fetters were unfastened.

Paul’s primary charism was preaching, but he was certainly quite charismatic, in the sense that signs and wonders followed him, and he lived in the fullness of the charismatic gifts.

 

[CopticChristian]

I wasn’t summarizing all of 1 Corinthians. I was specifically limiting my comments to what he says about charismata. I don’t need signs, but I don’t deny that God continues to work signs in this present day. I don’t seek after gifts, but I do not deny that God continues to bestow His gifts upon the church. Where did you get that I wanted or needed signs? I simply said that having a spiritual gift does not mean that you are immature. It is how you use the gift that God gives you that shows if you are immature or not.

The Bible is the word of God. In it Paul says I wish you all would speak in tongues but I wish you all would prophesy even more (1 Cor. 14:5). Forbid not speaking in tongues and do not despise prophecy (1 Cor. 14:39). Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, desire those gifts that build up the church and pursue love (1 Cor. 14:1,12). That is the balanced approach and one I follow.

I see them as a sign of Christianity period. It is the use of the charismata which shows if you are a novice or not.

I cannot for the life of me recall ever going to any Church service where anyone told me that they were measuring people up as to novice or not. This is peculiarly Protestant in nature. It reminds me of the belts in Karate.

In the martial arts, there are those that have belts, and others that do not. Wing Chun has no belts, Tai Chi has no belts, all the other have belts because of this deranged notion of juding others against yourself.

 

[ltwin]

I cannot for the life of me recall ever going to any Church service where anyone told me that they were measuring people up as to novice or not. This is peculiarly Protestant in nature. It reminds me of the belts in Karate.

In the martial arts, there are those that have belts, and others that do not. Wing Chun has no belts, Tai Chi has no belts, all the other have belts because of this deranged notion of juding others against yourself.

No one does that in a Pentecostal church. There are non-Pentecostals who try to say that a church that even teaches on spiritual gifts is “immature” and focusing on graces that mature Christians have long since moved beyond. What I’m saying is that spiritual gifts (all of them tongues, prophecy, helps, healings, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, teaching, administration, governments, mercy showing, service, etc.) are not mature or immature, they show up where the church is. They are all “charismatic.” It is how you use any gift that is mature or immature. Not the gift itself.

 

[CopticChristian]

No one does that in a Pentecostal church. There are non-Pentecostals who try to say that a church that even teaches on spiritual gifts is “immature” and focusing on graces that mature Christians have long since moved beyond. What I’m saying is that spiritual gifts (all of them tongues, prophecy, helps, healings, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, teaching, administration, governments, mercy showing, service, etc.) are not mature or immature, they show up where the church is. They are all “charismatic.” It is how you use any gift that is mature or immature. Not the gift itself.

I have had no apparitions, no spiritual dreams, have not heard God’s voice, believe that Echolalia as studied by linguists is jibberish and nonsense, having heard it, have no gifts and think I am OK, struggling, working out my salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[ltwin]

When I said “it is the** use**” I was referring not to “use” as in mere possession of a gift. But I was referring to “use” in the sense of how a person operates and exercises a particular gift that one has. Does a person use his gifts in love and for the benefit of others? Does he use them for God’s glory and to build up the church and not for his own glory and gain? That shows if you are a novice or not, if you’ve moved beyond childish things.

 

[ltwin]

I have had no apparitions, no spiritual dreams, have not heard God’s voice, believe that Echolalia as studied by linguists is jibberish and nonsense, having heard it, have no gifts and think I am OK, struggling, working out my salvation with fear and trembling.

You misunderstand the nature of spiritual gifts. We all have some spiritual gift. Teaching is a spiritual gift. Helps is a spiritual gift. All kinds of service are spiritual gifts. I’m not understanding why you limit "spiritual gifts’ to the more “miraculous” or “supernatural” in character.

We are struggling to work out our own salvation. That’s the beauty in it. God uses imperfect vessels to display His glory so that all might know that it is the grace of Christ in us, not ourselves.

 

[guanophore]

I cannot for the life of me recall ever going to any Church service where anyone told me that they were measuring people up as to novice or not. This is peculiarly Protestant in nature. It reminds me of the belts in Karate.

No, it is not peculiar to Protestants. If that were the case, it would not be in the NT, since the NT is a Catholic book.

Heb 5:11-14

11 About this we have much to say which is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food; 13 for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.

1 Cor 3:2-3
2 I fed you with milk, not solid food; for you were not ready for it; and even yet you are not ready, 3 for you are still of the flesh.

1 Peter 2:1-3
ter 2

2:1 So put away all malice and all guile and insincerity and envy and all slander. 2 Like newborn babes, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation; 3 for you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.

Clearly the Apostles’ distinguished between the newborns and the mature.

In the martial arts, there are those that have belts, and others that do not.  Wing Chun has no belts, Tai Chi has no belts, all the other have belts because of this deranged notion of juding others against yourself.

No. The belts classify the student according to the standards. I will stipulate that some masters do use themselves as the plumbline, but in most arts, it is an objective standard.

 

[TrueLight]

All true Christians are “born-again”. However, in the American lexicon, the phrase is usually applied to evangelical Protestants (Southern Baptists, Wesleyan-Holiness, Pentecostals, non-denominational, etc.). These are distinguished from the mainline Protestants.

In brief, “born-again” Christians believe that it is not enough to be born into a church. You must have an experience with Christ. This can happen anyway, but a lot of times it happens during a worship service after the sermon when the minister gives what is called an “altar call”. He will ask those who feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit to come forward and kneel at the altar rail in prayer. Many churches have organized prayer teams that will pray with the person. The person acknowledges that he is a sinner and that he believes that Jesus died and shed his blood for his sins and he asks Jesus to forgive him and come into his heart and life and be his lord and savior.

The pastor will be told if the person gave their life to Christ and many times the whole church will clap and hug the person welcoming him into the family of God. (If its a Pentecostal church, it can get wild).

If the person was sincere and truly had an encounter with the risen savior then he is “born-again”. If the experience was a true one, then the church will begin to see him bare spiritual fruit and grow in his new Christian life. If it wasn’t a true one, it will be fairly obvious sometime afterward because often if it wasn’t a true conversion the person wont stay in church for very long.

After someone is born again or “saved” then they will usually be baptized in water according to the practice of that church. I think most people who describe themselves as “born-again” would believe in full immersion baptism. Evangelicals don’ usually don’t make a federal case out of baptism (unless they are actually Baptists). At my church, we are told it is a command of Jesus and we need to do it period. But when the communion plate is being passed around, no one is asking anyone “Have you been baptized”. It just doesn’t happen.

Also, having this experience does not negate one’s need for forgiveness. Evangelical Christians still believe it is necessary to repent of sin throughout one’s life and personally I have to ask God’s forgiveness every day.

Also, “getting saved” doesn’t have to be a onetime deal. It is common for people, especially if they have left the faith, to “re-dedicate” their lives to Christ again, by repeating much the same ritual as above. The altar is a place of repentance and sacrifice and in many churches believers are encouraged to pray at the altar when moved by the Spirit.

Great summary of the evangelical belief system I was raised in,

 

[guanophore]

I have had no apparitions, no spiritual dreams, have not heard God’s voice, believe that Echolalia as studied by linguists is jibberish and nonsense, having heard it, have no gifts and think I am OK, struggling, working out my salvation with fear and trembling.

Then you are mistaken, Coptic, because every baptized Christian has been given gifts by the HS. Your ignorance of yours only demonstrates that you have not unwrapped your package.

1 Cor 12:4-11
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

The Word of God says that each person has been given a manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. That means you have been given gifts for the service of the Body. It is your duty, and a Christian, to discern the nature of these gifts, and use them in his service.

A Christian should not place modern linguistic science above the Word of God.

1 Cor 14:2-3
2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

God’s Word is quite clear that a person speaking in tongues is not necessarily intelligible by anyone her on earth,

 

[CopticChristian]

Then you are mistaken, Coptic, because every baptized Christian has been given gifts by the HS. Your ignorance of yours only demonstrates that you have not unwrapped your package.

1 Cor 12:4-11
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

The Word of God says that each person has been given a manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. That means you have been given gifts for the service of the Body. It is your duty, and a Christian, to discern the nature of these gifts, and use them in his service.

A Christian should not place modern linguistic science above the Word of God.

1 Cor 14:2-3
2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

God’s Word is quite clear that a person speaking in tongues is not necessarily intelligible by anyone her on earth,

Then by ignorance I am convicted and by my baptism I am declared to be a child of God, and my God is father, and my father understands me, with Jesus as brother, I remain in the family of God, believing as I will and as I am led.

 

[StrawberryJam]

You missed the entire point I was making. If someone cannot respect what the Bible says about homosexuality, that it is sin, and instead decides to call it something holy, which some churches are doing now, then there is nothing stopping someone from discounting the miraculous in the Bible.

If someone does not believe that the creation account of Adam and Eve was a historical event or that Joshua and the battle of Jericho happened just as the Bible describes, then there is nothing stopping them from believing that the miracles of Jesus are not real but metaphorical. That was the point I was making.

Both of these were mentioned in response to you asserting that there was no reason for “Full Gospel” churches to distinguish themselves from other Christians, because other Christians still believe in miracles, etc. What I’m telling you is that there are Christians who don’t believe in the reliability of the Bible, much less current or biblical miracles.

Which miracles are there in the bible?

 

[ltwin]

Then you are mistaken, Coptic, because every baptized Christian has been given gifts by the HS. Your ignorance of yours only demonstrates that you have not unwrapped your package.

1 Cor 12:4-11
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

The Word of God says that each person has been given a manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. That means you have been given gifts for the service of the Body. It is your duty, and a Christian, to discern the nature of these gifts, and use them in his service.

A Christian should not place modern linguistic science above the Word of God.

1 Cor 14:2-3
2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

God’s Word is quite clear that a person speaking in tongues is not necessarily intelligible by anyone her on earth,

Good summary guanophore . These are some lists in the NT that mention spiritual gifts. Often the lists overlap, but notice the variety. Also note that many (such as the two in 1 Peter) aren’t describing particular gifts so much as they are describing categories or types of gifts. There is truly a variety of spiritual gifts God has given to His church.

Romans 12:6-8
Prophecy
Serving
Teaching
Encouraging
Contributing
Leadership
Mercy

1 Cor. 7:7
Marriage
Celibacy

1 Cor. 12:8-10
Word of wisdom
Word of knowledge
Faith
Gifts of healings
Miracles
Prophecy
Distinguishing between spirits
Tongues
Interpretation of tongues

1 Cor. 12:28
Apostle
Prophet
Teacher
Miracles
Kinds of healings
Helps
Administration
Tongues

Ephesians 4:11
Apostle
Prophet
Evangelist
Pastor-teacher

1 Peter 4:11
Whoever speaks
Whoever renders service

 

[ltwin]

Which miracles are there in the bible?

Not exactly sure what question you are asking. There a tons of miracles in the Bible. Jesus healed blind men and those with leprosy. He made the lame walk. He withered a fig tree just by speaking to it. Miracles are performed in the Old Testament and in the New.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Not exactly sure what question you are asking. There a tons of miracles in the Bible. Jesus healed blind men and those with leprosy. He made the lame walk. He withered a fig tree just by speaking to it. Miracles are performed in the Old Testament and in the New.

Anyone get a limb back? The kind of miracles you talk about could easily be discounted.
Interesting you don’t mention a virgin birth in your list of miracles.

 

[ltwin]

Anyone get a limb back? The kind of miracles you talk about could easily be discounted.
Interesting you don’t mention a virgin birth in your list of miracles.

What list did I give? I threw out some examples. Of course the Virgin Birth would be a miracle. What is the point of your post? That because a miracle can be faked that there aren’t real ones? What logic is that…

The only list I recall making is the one above concerning spiritual gifts. Miracle working falls in that category. But not all spiritual gifts are miracles.

 

[guanophore]

Then by ignorance I am convicted and by my baptism I am declared to be a child of God, and my God is father, and my father understands me, with Jesus as brother, I remain in the family of God, believing as I will and as I am led.

I didn’t mean you are ignorant of your OWN faith, just the faith of Protestants. Non-Catholic Christians are not a different “religion”.

 

[guanophore]

Whoever renders service

I am in the Onesimus ministry.