Born-again Christians

[CopticChristian]

Huh?? We don’t have to be rebaptized because the “first one didn’t take.” I have never heard of anyone advocating that. I can imagine someone wanting to be rebaptized as a renewal of their dedication to God, but its not because the first one wasn’t effective or that it lost its effectiveness by the way the person lived their life. Baptism is a public identification with Christ, showing the world that the old you is buried and the new you is raised to life in Christ. You only have to do it once.

People go to the altar for a variety of reasons. The altar is a place of sacrifice, where you become a living sacrifice. It is there that you you meet with God and lay down things in your life that He doesn’t want you to have and pick up the things that He does have for you. Yes, it is a place for struggling Christians, but we all struggle and we all have to make our way to the altar (whether figuratively or literally). It is also a place you can go even if you aren’t struggling at that moment. The altar is also a place to offer praise to God.

This understanding emanates from Protestant thought, the Baptists and Anabaptists. Since Baptism is not sacrament and ordinance, and since from some Protestants point of view the OHCAC is a cult, they rebaptize. To suggest it did not take is nothing more than lack of catechesis in baptism. It is an example of a word that is believed differently and has different meaning by each.

An altar call in Protestant thought is a “come to Jesus” get salvation moment. In those services I have been at, it usually comes at the end of some emotional dialogue. You will see this “altar call” in various forms. If you are watching TV, Billy Graham has the participants come down and get a brochure and have some counseling, if you are watching TV and hear the Protestant say, if you have decided to give your life to Jesus, say this prayer with me right now…that is a form of the altar call. For these types of Protestants the altar call is when they give their life to Jesus and become Christians. The next step after this altar call is get a bible, go to a bible believing church, etc.

 

[babylonsfalling]

Please chill out. There are Protestants, called cessationists (look it up) who believe that the miraculous have ceased, and they attack Catholics for believing in “superstition” as they call it. There Christians who don’t believe that God can stop a pin falling to the ground so give me a break on that one.<—I think I’ll wait until I start actually meeting and hearing “SO MANY mainline and traditional Protestant churches that essentially say that the miraculous has ended” (to use your ORIGINAL language) before taking what you SAY about all these other people to heart. The fact is that you can pick out ANYTHING and say there are SOME Christians which believe it. In real life though, it’s like I said to begin with. Whether it’s a Catholic Church, another denominational church or a nondenominational church I’m NOT hearing what you claim is being said by “so many” Christians. ** There are actually a lot of nominal Christians,<—Are YOU a nominal Christian? i. e. Christians in name only. Maybe they were baptized as children, maybe as teens, maybe as adults. Either way they are currently Christians in name only.<—What makes you so qualified as to make such judgments about other people.** It affects all traditions and denominations.

There are nominal Pentecostals as well, i.e they can dance, shout, and speak in tongues till the cows come home but outside of church they live their life in the same manner as a non-Christian. No one should defend nominal Christianity. If you are a Pentecostal, be Pentecostal; if you are Catholic you need to be Catholic.

These people are not pointing out the flaws of other Christians so much as distinguishing themselves.<—Which is exactly what makes it so easy for them to then look down their noses at those NON-distinguished Christians. It’s no different than the word “Catholic” or “Orthodox”. Everyone gives themselves a label.** I suppose Catholics are looking down on everyone else as well.**<----Some are…but in this thread it seems to be you that’s doing it. The fact that others do it also doesn’t make it right. And Methodists are saying that their methodical religious life is superior to Anglicanism. And Baptists are saying they have the correct teaching on baptism. I could go on and on.

These people do believe they are right. But don’t you believe that when you describe yourself as a Catholic that your church is the right one, possessing Catholicity. And when the Orthodox describe themselves as such, they are saying we are the true faith. Both of those labels imply that those who are not Catholic or Orthodox are missing something. Don’t know why you are getting upset with these groups for doing the same thing.

I’m not hearing other Christians here talking about how distinguished** some Christians are** are or how nominal someone else is, etc. Most people are able to believe they are right without applying those terms to others.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m not hearing other Christians here talking about how distinguished** some Christians are** are or how nominal someone else is, etc. Most people are able to believe they are right without applying those terms to others.

What you are experiencing is a cultural perspective. The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church has a cultural perspective as follows:

We all have the same beliefs. There are dissenters however the teachings are the same. While some claim to be bible believing, we don’t make a big deal about that is what we do. 1/2 of the mass is called the Liturgy of The Word. There is no disagreement about Scripture, Baptism, forgiveness, praying, and it is for not only us but for our childrens sake we have a continuity. I in my whole life never distinguished anyone’s walk with the lord. We acknowlege everyone, listen to their troubles, give them hope and encouragement in Christ and who doesn’t have problems.

In my experience because of the Protestant paradigm there is as you know the Calvinists who believe that they are going to heaven, ipso facto, once saved always saved if truly saved. They are on a mission to find their fellow heaven bound brothers. The Jehovah Witness do a similar thing, you are either sheep or goat. The notion of Justification as they understand it for some involves what is called Sanctification, most Protestants today, know that this is a false doctrine. It is this Sanctification or external proof of an internal change that they are looking at.

It is like this. The OHCAC sees members as children of God. We are a family. The family has many different types of people. There are sinful people in the family and we pray for them. We never doubt their walk. Who has not sinned? No protestant will raise their hand and say me!

Protestants for the most part have the notion that they are not truly righteous, only declared righteous and the internal insecurity is broadcast by looking outside oneself for comparison. This is just basic psychology. Oh, yeah, they will tell you that they are sure of their salvation. Words mean nothing. Basic understanding of Psychology does not fall away. Projection is looking at others for the problems you see in yourself and that is the key to knowing that there is an internal struggle and dialogue of lack of surety despite what they say.

You have met people that lie and accuse you of lying, that cheat and accuse you of cheating, etc. When you see projection of any kind it is nothing more than an expression of what is lacking of that individual projecting. I cannot for the life of me ever hearing or seeing a Catholic trying to determine what someone else is doing walking with the Lord. This is pure Protestant thought.

The other dilema is that there is no Protestant Church that speaks for all Protestant thought and that is why you read and hear about these other denominations. Catholics are not a denomination. Denomination is purely a Protestant phenomenon.

Read through this and see what Sola Scriptura and no Church Authority brought to the Protestant world and how tolerant they were.

worldspirituality.org/protestant.html

 

[ltwin]

This understanding emanates from Protestant thought, the Baptists and Anabaptists. Since Baptism is not sacrament and ordinance, and since from some Protestants point of view the OHCAC is a cult, they rebaptize. To suggest it did not take is nothing more than lack of catechesis in baptism. It is an example of a word that is believed differently and has different meaning by each.

An altar call in Protestant thought is a “come to Jesus” get salvation moment. In those services I have been at, it usually comes at the end of some emotional dialogue. You will see this “altar call” in various forms. If you are watching TV, Billy Graham has the participants come down and get a brochure and have some counseling, if you are watching TV and hear the Protestant say, if you have decided to give your life to Jesus, say this prayer with me right now…that is a form of the altar call. For these types of Protestants the altar call is when they give their life to Jesus and become Christians. The next step after this altar call is get a bible, go to a bible believing church, etc.

An altar call is not just for salvation, as I said above. It is a “come to Jesus” moment though, but not limited in a salvific sense. We come to Jesus for a lot of things. The important thing is not that you perform an altar call ritual or that you say a “sinners prayer.” The important thing, the essential thing is that you actually meet with Jesus.

When you truly encounter Jesus, His love, and His grace, you will be changed. In the light of His holiness, our sin and need of a savior is exposed. We have to come to the cross and be washed by His blood. Our hearts and lives are changed when we put our faith and trust in Jesus as Lord and Savior and that He died for our sins and rose again from the dead.That is the important thing, and that can be accomplished in your bedroom or a prison cell just as good as it can be accomplished at an altar.

You can’t stop there of course. The same faith that brought you to the cross in the first place will keep you there, but it is possible to lose one’s faith. If faith in Christ and His work on the cross is lost, there can be no salvation.

 

[ltwin]

Please chill out. There are Protestants, called cessationists (look it up) who believe that the miraculous have ceased, and they attack Catholics for believing in “superstition” as they call it. There Christians who don’t believe that God can stop a pin falling to the ground so give me a break on that one.<—I think I’ll wait until I start actually meeting and hearing “SO MANY mainline and traditional Protestant churches that essentially say that the miraculous has ended” (to use your ORIGINAL language) before taking what you SAY about all these other people to heart. The fact is that you can pick out ANYTHING and say there are SOME Christians which believe it. In real life though, it’s like I said to begin with. Whether it’s a Catholic Church, another denominational church or a nondenominational church I’m NOT hearing what you claim is being said by “so many” Christians. There are actually a lot of nominal Christians,<—Are YOU a nominal Christian? i. e. Christians in name only. Maybe they were baptized as children, maybe as teens, maybe as adults. Either way they are currently Christians in name only.<—What makes you so qualified as to make such judgments about other people. It affects all traditions and denominations.

You have made uncharitable accusations at me. I never once was judgmental of other Christians or other denominations, you projected those feelings on what I wrote. Pointing out a problem (the large amounts of nominal Christians) is not judging anyone.

I was explaining the historical significance of a term like “Full Gospel”. The fact is, despite what you might think, “Full Gospel” churches arose around a time when the way God worked in the Bible was being challenged by both conservative and liberal Protestantism. Today, there are some Protestants who don’t even believe that everything in the Bible is historical fact, and you are sitting here arguing with me over whether some Christians don’t believe in the miraculous anymore . There are Protestants who, in direct contradiction of God’s Holy Word, are ordaining and marrying practicing homosexuals, and you are telling me that it is impossible that there are Christians who don’t believe that God can perform a miracle like he did and on the scale he did in the Bible .

I gave you a reasoned explanation for why people choose the name that they do, you are only able to accuse them of looking down on other Christians. Some do, some don’t. How is that different from any other group of Christians?

I’ve said what I have to say. I have tried to be fair and talk to you reasonably, but it seems all you can see is the negative. You make broad assumptions about whole groups of people.

 

[GaryTaylor]

“I’m done talking to you”…

Peace

 

[ltwin]

“I’m done talking to you”…

Peace

Sorry if that got heated, but I try to be charitable in what I post, and I don’t appreciate in post after post being accused of looking down on other Christians or judging other Christians.

If I have not acted in a Christ-like manner, I apologize to Babylonfalling.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Everyone gets caught up in the moment through fustration.

Peace, Gary

 

[CopticChristian]

An altar call is not just for salvation, as I said above. It is a “come to Jesus” moment though, but not limited in a salvific sense. We come to Jesus for a lot of things. The important thing is not that you perform an altar call ritual or that you say a “sinners prayer.” The important thing, the essential thing is that you actually meet with Jesus.

When you truly encounter Jesus, His love, and His grace, you will be changed. In the light of His holiness, our sin and need of a savior is exposed. We have to come to the cross and be washed by His blood. Our hearts and lives are changed when we put our faith and trust in Jesus as Lord and Savior and that He died for our sins and rose again from the dead.That is the important thing, and that can be accomplished in your bedroom or a prison cell just as good as it can be accomplished at an altar.

You can’t stop there of course. The same faith that brought you to the cross in the first place will keep you there, but it is possible to lose one’s faith. If faith in Christ and His work on the cross is lost, there can be no salvation.

We are changed if we want to be changed. We are changed when we conform ourselves to His Will. We are changed when we allow His grace to work to change us. We are changed when we encounter him and eat him up in communion.

 

[ltwin]

We are changed if we want to be changed. We are changed when we conform ourselves to His Will. We are changed when we allow His grace to work to change us. We are changed when we encounter him and eat him up in communion.

I completely agree with all but the last clause of the last sentence sentence.

 

[CopticChristian]

I completely agree with all but the last clause of the last sentence sentence.

No problem, the majority of Christians in the world, agree with the last clause.

 

[ltwin]

No problem, the majority of Christians in the world, agree with the last clause.

No problem with that either. I am of the opinion that Catholics are brothers and sisters in Christ, and though we are not in complete theological harmony I believe our faith walks are similar, though we tend to speak different languages and emphasize different aspects.

 

[1voice]

I think a lot of movements start out “charismatic” and then over time “settle down.” Look at your typical suburban white Pentecostal church. No one could accuse them of being too charismatic.

Thats because people tend to quench the spirit of God over time. The Israelites of the Old Testament demonstrated how human nature works against God’s nature. human nature hasn† changed simply because time has elapsed.
What I have seen, having been closely associated with the Catholic Charismatic movement from its inception … as well as the Toronto Blessing … This is how it works… People become hungry for God to change things that are simply unbearable for whatever reason (pick one) … a few good people search the scriptures and realize that God honors the fervent prayer of his people … So … they take him at his word and pray … fervently… for years… and years… (intercessors) Then the flood gates are opened with signs and wonders following … as they always do when people deeply … sincerely seek God’s face…(Pentecost) … At first… the whole thing is like a honeymoon … amazing stuff happens … people flock to see and get blessed and amazed and /healed and the power of God falls like rain on a parched land…
Phase 2 … people become complacent and dont realize that God requires repentance (cafeteria Christianity seeps in) … and the manifestations (which are intended by God to draw people to the truth of his word) … become ho hum… So … God stops the manifestations … because … for him it is not a side show… The people continue to show up because they think that ritual is what pleases God… God looks for a contrite heart … The Intercessors pass into eternity and no one understands that it was the intercessors that started the fire … so no one sustains it… They replace faithfulness in humility and prayer with rules and patterns … and it dies… It becomes a form of Godliness … but lacks t/he power. … Happens over and over in Christianity.

 

[CopticChristian]

Thats because people tend to quench the spirit of God over time. The Israelites of the Old Testament demonstrated how human nature works against God’s nature. human nature hasn† changed simply because time has elapsed.
What I have seen, having been closely associated with the Catholic Charismatic movement from its inception … as well as the Toronto Blessing … This is how it works… People become hungry for God to change things that are simply unbearable for whatever reason (pick one) … a few good people search the scriptures and realize that God honors the fervent prayer of his people … So … they take him at his word and pray … fervently… for years… and years… (intercessors) Then the flood gates are opened with signs and wonders following … as they always do when people deeply … sincerely seek God’s face…(Pentecost) … At first… the whole thing is like a honeymoon … amazing stuff happens … people flock to see and get blessed and amazed and /healed and the power of God falls like rain on a parched land…
Phase 2 … people become complacent and dont realize that God requires repentance (cafeteria Christianity seeps in) … and the manifestations (which are intended by God to draw people to the truth of his word) … become ho hum… So … God stops the manifestations … because … for him it is not a side show… The people continue to show up because they think that ritual is what pleases God… God looks for a contrite heart … The Intercessors pass into eternity and no one understands that it was the intercessors that started the fire … so no one sustains it… They replace faithfulness in humility and prayer with rules and patterns … and it dies… It becomes a form of Godliness … but lacks t/he power. … Happens over and over in Christianity.

Scott Hahn points out that charismatic grace is a gift. There are other graces as taught by the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. Scott says that Sanctifying grace is a greater grace. He states " I would rather have one ounce of Sanctifying grace than a ton of Charismatic grace" or something like that. Scott points out that Corinth was a young Church and that Charisms are a sign of youthful Christianity. As we mature we tend to seek other graces. Paul does not speak of his charismatic gifts much. In Corinth he does but after that not much. Would you not agree in reading Paul, that he was on fire, and yet in a different way?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Yes, he was on Fire, focused, motivated, yet with his feet squarely on the ground and connected to the Lords message.

“God has placed us who bear His message on a stage in a theatre which no-one wants to buy a ticket” St Paul

“The time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have keep the faith.” St Paul

We should all fight the good fight and keep the faith. Keeping the faith is not to chose to divide through mans conceived, projected difference’s created in your own mind. That does not correlate with “The Kingdom of God is within us”. The Kingdom of God is unconditional Love which automatically require’s Forgiveness.

Peace

 

[1voice]

Scott Hahn points out that charismatic grace is a gift. There are other graces as taught by the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. Scott says that Sanctifying grace is a greater grace. He states " I would rather have one ounce of Sanctifying grace than a ton of Charismatic grace" or something like that. Scott points out that Corinth was a young Church and that Charisms are a sign of youthful Christianity. As we mature we tend to seek other graces. Paul does not speak of his charismatic gifts much. In Corinth he does but after that not much. Would you not agree in reading Paul, that he was on fire, and yet in a different way?

Well, My experience says otherwise.

That kind of thinking is exactly what I am talking about. Paul talked about the whole gospel and lived it. Jesus demonstrated the gifts and the power of God throughout his entire ministry.
People’s opinions are an observation of what happens… not why it happens.
The Church that I attend has had active outward demonstrations of all of the gifts listed in the new testament … for over 40 years and counting… The fire goes out in a church because it is not tended … Dispensationalism is a way of justifying man’s religious tradition.

 

[CopticChristian]

Well, My experience says otherwise.

That kind of thinking is exactly what I am talking about. Paul talked about the whole gospel and lived it. Jesus demonstrated the gifts and the power of God throughout his entire ministry.
People’s opinions are an observation of what happens… not why it happens.
The Church that I attend has had active outward demonstrations of all of the gifts listed in the new testament … for over 40 years and counting… The fire goes out in a church because it is not tended … Dispensationalism is a way of justifying man’s religious tradition.

2000-40 would suggest that there is still time for observation.

The Pentacostal movement as we know it was spawned from the holiness movement, spawned from the Methodists, spawned from the Anglican movement. As I recall the Pentacostal was actually spawned in Los Angeles at the Azusa Street revival.

What we observe is yet to be seen. Experience is valuable. In this life we take experience, history, fact and cipher it all together. Relying on experience alone we skew our understanding.

 

[ltwin]

Scott Hahn points out that charismatic grace is a gift. There are other graces as taught by the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. Scott says that Sanctifying grace is a greater grace. He states " I would rather have one ounce of Sanctifying grace than a ton of Charismatic grace" or something like that. Scott points out that Corinth was a young Church and that Charisms are a sign of youthful Christianity. As we mature we tend to seek other graces. Paul does not speak of his charismatic gifts much. In Corinth he does but after that not much. Would you not agree in reading Paul, that he was on fire, and yet in a different way?

I don’t see charisms as a sign of youthful Christianity. I see them as a sign of Christianity period. It is the use of the charismata which shows if you are a novice or not. Paul never says that the charismata are child’s play. He says we should stop being children, putting away childish attitudes. The mature Christian realizes that charismatic grace does not have to die on the altar of divine order or in the later maturer years of the Christian’s life. Your latter rain can indeed be greater than your former rain. Paul paints a picture of how charismata should function. Their should be diversity. Not all possess all the gifts, but everyone has some gift. It may not seem “supernatural,” but any spiritual gift given for the building up of the church is enabled by the Spirit and by its very nature is supernatural. And this brings up the purpose of the charismata. Charisms are for serving others, not ourselves. If we use them without love or simply to draw attention to ourselves, we are not using them for the purpose for which they were granted.

2000-40 would suggest that there is still time for observation.

The Pentacostal movement as we know it was spawned from the holiness movement, spawned from the Methodists, spawned from the Anglican movement. As I recall the Pentacostal was actually spawned in Los Angeles at the Azusa Street revival.

What we observe is yet to be seen. Experience is valuable. In this life we take experience, history, fact and cipher it all together. Relying on experience alone we skew our understanding.

The most common birth date given is the Azusa Street Revival, which began in 1906. So the movement is just a century old. We’re young and still maturing. The challenge we face is how to come of age in a context where Pentecostalism is no longer marginalized and disparaged. Can we stay dynamic, but also stay away from “wildfire” and spiritual intoxication that so many seem to be attracted to these days. Time will tell, but it seems that we’re not disappearing any time soon.

 

[CopticChristian]

I don’t see charisms as a sign of youthful Christianity. I see them as a sign of Christianity period. It is the use of the charismata which shows if you are a novice or not. Paul never says that the charismata are child’s play. He says we should stop being children, putting away childish attitudes. The mature Christian realizes that charismatic grace does not have to die on the altar of divine order or in the later maturer years of the Christian’s life. Your latter rain can indeed be greater than your former rain. Paul paints a picture of how charismata should function. Their should be diversity. Not all possess all the gifts, but everyone has some gift. It may not seem “supernatural,” but any spiritual gift given for the building up of the church is enabled by the Spirit and by its very nature is supernatural. And this brings up the purpose of the charismata. Charisms are for serving others, not ourselves. If we use them without love or simply to draw attention to ourselves, we are not using them for the purpose for which they were granted.

The most common birth date given is the Azusa Street Revival, which began in 1906. So the movement is just a century old. We’re young and still maturing. The challenge we face is how to come of age in a context where Pentecostalism is no longer marginalized and disparaged. Can we stay dynamic, but also stay away from “wildfire” and spiritual intoxication that so many seem to be attracted to these days. Time will tell, but it seems that we’re not disappearing any time soon.

Paul talks about so much more than Charisms in Corinthians and you focus on “signs”. I do not know what you know. The gospel of John is written with signs. Signs are for the Jew and that is why miracles are never mentioned. You need signs? Here is what Paul says:

1Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. 3But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. 4One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. 5Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

If you have not love, then you are a gong or a clanging symbol. If you have love, that is a pretty good sign. Edify. Paul says he wishes that you would edify more. If the bible is the word of God and Paul wrote it, then God is speaking through Paul and asks that you edify.

 

[ltwin]

Paul talks about so much more than Charisms in Corinthians and you focus on “signs”. I do not know what you know. The gospel of John is written with signs. Signs are for the Jew and that is why miracles are never mentioned. You need signs? Here is what Paul says:

If you have not love, then you are a gong or a clanging symbol. If you have love, that is a pretty good sign. Edify. Paul says he wishes that you would edify more. If the bible is the word of God and Paul wrote it, then God is speaking through Paul and asks that you edify.

I wasn’t summarizing all of 1 Corinthians. I was specifically limiting my comments to what he says about charismata. I don’t need signs, but I don’t deny that God continues to work signs in this present day. I don’t seek after gifts, but I do not deny that God continues to bestow His gifts upon the church. Where did you get that I wanted or needed signs? I simply said that having a spiritual gift does not mean that you are immature. It is how you use the gift that God gives you that shows if you are immature or not.

The Bible is the word of God. In it Paul says I wish you all would speak in tongues but I wish you all would prophesy even more (1 Cor. 14:5). Forbid not speaking in tongues and do not despise prophecy (1 Cor. 14:39). Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, desire those gifts that build up the church and pursue love (1 Cor. 14:1,12). That is the balanced approach and one I follow.