Born Again?

[MariaG]

**Marie, OSAS simply means assured salvation. that nothing can take away their guranteed ticket to Heaven. The gross characterization is when a OSAS follower or Born Again believer explains commandments are essential to faith , however have nothing to do with ones salvation. **

I am not suggesting these sects go out and sin, what I am stating is they do not profess a doctrine of Holiness to follow, which is what Christ calls all of us so called Christians to abide by.

Jan

Yes, OSAS means Once Saved Always Saved and that nothing can take away their ticket to heaven. Yet one can believe in assurance of salvation without believing in OSAS.

As for a holiness doctrine, there are some who do in fact teach a Holiness doctrine. John Wesley was a great believer in holiness doctrine. It will not be explained in quite the same manner but holiness is definitely preached.

And the same ones that teach a holiness doctrine, will also teach that one can KNOW if you are going to heaven, without in anyway meaning OSAS.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Syele]

This aunt of mine was always a Lutheran. She never was a Catholic. She was baptized as an infant in the Lutheran Church, but tried out the Baptist Church briefly because her Lutheran parish closed and the Baptist Church was close by. She now attends another Lutheran parish that is quite a bit of a drive, because she did not agree with the Baptist doctrine on baptism (and on several other issues).

Oh Good! I thought that was a pretty wild story.

 

[Syele]

**Marie, OSAS simply means assured salvation. that nothing can take away their guranteed ticket to Heaven. The gross characterization is when a OSAS follower or Born Again believer explains commandments are essential to faith , however have nothing to do with ones salvation.

I am not suggesting these sects go out and sin, what I am stating is they do not profess a doctrine of Holiness to follow, which is what Christ calls all of us so called Christians to abide by.

Jan**

Born Again is not the same as OSAS.

The OSAS believers think that those who do not try to live lives of Holyness were never Born Again to start with. How can they try to live that way if they don’t teach in their churches that they should? IF they aren’t living a life of Holiness, it’s assumed they were never Born again. Dosn’t sound like it can be seperated to me.

The other Born again believers, believe that when you fail to follow a life of Holiness you get farther and farther from God until you eventually come to a point of having Blasphemed the Holy Spirit from lack of desire for Holiness and become unsaved. Again, You seperate the life of Holiness and you lose Salvation… This Doctrine Requires a life of Holiness.

Both have “the Sinner’s Prayer” both believe in Justification by Faith and not by works, both teach a person has to live a life of Holiness. They DO profess a doctrine of Holiness to follow, Only the reasons for following it are somewhat different than Catholics.

 

[MariaG]

Born Again is not the same as OSAS.

The OSAS believers think that those who do not try to live lives of Holyness were never Born Again to start with. How can they try to live that way if they don’t teach in their churches that they should? IF they aren’t living a life of Holiness, it’s assumed they were never Born again. Dosn’t sound like it can be seperated to me.

The other Born again believers, believe that when you fail to follow a life of Holiness you get farther and farther from God until you eventually come to a point of having Blasphemed the Holy Spirit from lack of desire for Holiness and become unsaved. Again, You seperate the life of Holiness and you lose Salvation… This Doctrine Requires a life of Holiness.

Both have “the Sinner’s Prayer” both believe in Justification by Faith and not by works, both teach a person has to live a life of Holiness. They DO profess a doctrine of Holiness to follow, Only the reasons for following it are somewhat different than Catholics.

While I agree with much of your assessment, there are points I disagree with.

I have found that although most OSAS people will deny that one needs to follow the ten commandments, or even follow a “holiness” doctrine, they in fact believe that one will *naturally *do so because they are saved. They sometimes try to separate it in words if not actions, I feel as a way to make sure that no one confuses doing the right thing with working their way to heaven, as many mistakenly think Catholics teach. But as you say, if they aren’t showing the fruit, they do not believe they were saved to begin with. So there is an attempt to separate it to a “faith alone” doctrine, but clearly they believe that one will show ones faith through actions.

As you say, the other born again believers believe one can “backslide”. That is do that which is less than holy and move farther away from God. Strive for holiness because God tells us to be ye holy. But once again, there is a denial that one must follow the ten commandments. If one loves God, one will naturally strive for and be Holy.

I see no effective difference between the actions of OSAS, born agains, and Catholics. All believe that if one has faith, actions and holiness will follow.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Syele]

If one loves God, one will naturally strive for and be Holy.

I see no effective difference between the actions of OSAS, born agains, and Catholics. All believe that if one has faith, actions and holiness will follow.

God Bless,
Maria

I agree with you on most of that except for the Naturally strive part. Striving isn’t natural. It’s difficult. Striving isn’t freedom from the slavery of sin, it’s fighting it tooth and nail! When you do something naturally, it is effortless. fighting cannot be effortless.

Even as Christians there are things we hold on to and don’t want to fully give up, and when we hold on to that it makes living a sinless life difficult. It becomes difficult because like Romans 6 says, when you give over something to sin… you become a *Slave to sin. *It starts becoming hard not to sin. But if you don’t have these tiny strongholds in sinful areas, then that area becomes EASY to avoid sin there. If this wasn’t true than we all would suffer from the same vices! Some people really struggle with pornography but not excessive drinking while others have the opposite problems! God promises us Freedom from the strongholds of sin if we completely surrender to Him. People promoting becoming “Born Again” are trying to get people to completly surrender to God so they can stop being slaves to sin, not so they can fight a never ending (until death) war with it.

So yes, Protesatants are saying God is so powerful over sin that if we completely surrender our lives to Him that we can have FREEDOM to live sinless lives effortlessly. The effort only comes in making the actual surrender not in fighting each sin.

 

[MariaG]

I agree with you on most of that except for the Naturally strive part. Striving isn’t natural. It’s difficult. Striving isn’t freedom from the slavery of sin, it’s fighting it tooth and nail! When you do something naturally, it is effortless. fighting cannot be effortless.

Even as Christians there are things we hold on to and don’t want to fully give up, and when we hold on to that it makes living a sinless life difficult. It becomes difficult because like Romans 6 says, when you give over something to sin… you become a *Slave to sin. *It starts becoming hard not to sin. But if you don’t have these tiny strongholds in sinful areas, then that area becomes EASY to avoid sin there. If this wasn’t true than we all would suffer from the same vices! Some people really struggle with pornography but not excessive drinking while others have the opposite problems! God promises us Freedom from the strongholds of sin if we completely surrender to Him. People promoting becoming “Born Again” are trying to get people to completly surrender to God so they can stop being slaves to sin, not so they can fight a never ending (until death) war with it.

So yes, Protesatants are saying God is so powerful over sin that if we completely surrender our lives to Him that we can have FREEDOM to live sinless lives effortlessly. The effort only comes in making the actual surrender not in fighting each sin.

Once again, thanks for the correction.

Naturally strive was somewhat of an oxymoron

God Bless,
Maria

 

[sara888]

Born Again is not the same as OSAS.

The OSAS believers think that those who do not try to live lives of Holyness were never Born Again to start with. How can they try to live that way if they don’t teach in their churches that they should? IF they aren’t living a life of Holiness, it’s assumed they were never Born again. Dosn’t sound like it can be seperated to me.

The other Born again believers, believe that when you fail to follow a life of Holiness you get farther and farther from God until you eventually come to a point of having Blasphemed the Holy Spirit from lack of desire for Holiness and become unsaved. Again, You seperate the life of Holiness and you lose Salvation… This Doctrine Requires a life of Holiness.

Both have “the Sinner’s Prayer” both believe in Justification by Faith and not by works, both teach a person has to live a life of Holiness. They DO profess a doctrine of Holiness to follow, Only the reasons for following it are somewhat different than Catholics.

**
If both sects teach a doctrine of holiness as you claim then commandment keeping which is required for Faith by Christ would be essential to Faith and obedience. As we cannot have one without the other… Commandments are required for faith .**

**Both teach justification by Faith and commandment keeping is not essential to salvation. unbiblical and not preached by Orthodox sects or Catholics. I see no difference between Born Again and the OSAS sect since their tenets of doctrine do not require commandments are essential to ones salvation, which again is just not biblical.

Jan**

 

[Syele]

**
If both sects teach a doctrine of holiness as you claim then commandment keeping which is required for Faith by Christ would be essential to Faith and obedience. As we cannot have one without the other… Commandments are required for faith .**

**Both teach justification by Faith and commandment keeping is not essential to salvation. unbiblical and not preached by Orthodox sects or Catholics. I see no difference between Born Again and the OSAS sect since their tenets of doctrine do not require commandments are essential to ones salvation, which again is just not biblical.

Jan**

Justification is by Faith through God’s Grace, Sanctification is by works and God’s Grace. You can’t have one without the other. If you did, THAT would be unbiblical.

 

[sara888]

Justification is by Faith through God’s Grace, Sanctification is by works and God’s Grace. You can’t have one without the other. If you did, THAT would be unbiblical.

**

In the water-and-Spirit rebirth that takes place at baptism, the repentant sinner is transformed from a state of sin to the state of grace. Peter mentioned this transformation from sin to grace when he exhorted people to “be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38).

The context of Jesus’ statements in John 3 makes it clear that he was referring to water baptism. Shortly before Jesus teaches Nicodemus about the necessity and regenerating effect of baptism, he himself was baptized by John the Baptist, and the circumstances are striking: Jesus goes down into the water, and as he is baptized, the heavens open, the Holy Spirit descends upon him in the form of a dove, and the voice of God the Father speaks from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son” (cf. Matt. 3:13–17; Mark 1:9–11; Luke 3:21–22; John 1:30–34).

This scene gives us a graphic depiction of what happens at baptism: We are baptized with water, symbolizing our dying with Christ (Rom. 6:3) and our rising with Christ to the newness of life (Rom. 6:4–5); we receive the gift of sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27); and we are adopted as God’s sons (Rom. 8:15–17).

After our Lord’s teaching that it is necessary for salvation to be born from above by water and the Spirit (John 3:1–21), “Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized” (John 3:22).

For an Evangelical, becoming born again often happens like this: He goes to a crusade or a revival where a minister delivers a sermon telling him of his need to be born again.Then the minister tells all who prayed the sinner’s prayer that they have been saved,born again. But is the minister right? Not according to the Bible.

Jan**

 

[mikemck]

To all evangelical and fundamentalist protestants, this question is for you. Many of you say that one is “born again” by accepting into their hearts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and savior. But my question is this: Where in the Bible does it say that we are “born again” by accepting Jesus Christ into our hearts as our personal Lord and Savior (and yes, show me a verse saying it the way you guys say it, in that “formula”).

It doesn’t.

You’re stacking the question in such a way that it is unanswerable. That way, you get to jump up and say, “A-HA!”

 

[sara888]

It doesn’t.

You’re stacking the question in such a way that it is unanswerable. That way, you get to jump up and say, “A-HA!”

**So in the gospels what does CHrist say about born again… can you show me with scripture his words on being born again…and its meaning??.

Thanks. Jan**

 

[rbarcia]

**

In the water-and-Spirit rebirth that takes place at baptism, the repentant sinner is transformed from a state of sin to the state of grace. Peter mentioned this transformation from sin to grace when he exhorted people to “be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38).

**

Where does he mention the transfer happening at baptism?

The context of Jesus’ statements in John 3 makes it clear that he was referring to water baptism. Shortly before Jesus teaches Nicodemus about the necessity and regenerating effect of baptism, he himself was baptized by John the Baptist, and the circumstances are striking: Jesus goes down into the water, and as he is baptized, the heavens open, the Holy Spirit descends upon him in the form of a dove, and the voice of God the Father speaks from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son” (cf. Matt. 3:13–17; Mark 1:9–11; Luke 3:21–22; John 1:30–34).

You are over generalizing. For every religous group, there are the hard core and the general majority. I can also generalize the everyday catholic who goes through the rituals but does not mean it. Commit sin Monday-Saturday, confess sunday, take breads, commit sin Monday-Saturday, confess Sunday, take bread. But that would be attacking people, not the real issue

Not everyone uses the sinners prayer approach as you stated. I agree that there is a danger in the sinner’s prayer approach. A man cheats on his wife, and the wife is willing to forgive him, she would not have to walk him through an apology, if he was truely sorry, he would know how to apologize. As such, a repentful heart towards God should come from the heart, and not recited to him.

But attacking an over generalized approach goes off the topic. That is the easiest think to do.
John 10

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
Does a shepard disown his sheep one day, then accept him the next, then disowns him again. Jesus says that no one can snatch His sheep away. If one falls out of a state of grace, then you are implying that someone can take away Jesus’ sheep, and therefore calling Jesus a liar.

Does your parent say to you today, you are my son/daughter, then the next day say you are not my child today, go do these things, and you can become my child again.

 

[rbarcia]

**
If both sects teach a doctrine of holiness as you claim then commandment keeping which is required for Faith by Christ would be essential to Faith and obedience. As we cannot have one without the other… Commandments are required for faith .**

**

Psalm 40:8

I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.”

**

**Both teach justification by Faith and commandment keeping is not essential to salvation. unbiblical and not preached by Orthodox sects or Catholics. I see no difference between Born Again and the OSAS sect since their tenets of doctrine do not require commandments are essential to ones salvation, which again is just not biblical.

Jan**

Romans 7

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[sara888]

**

Psalm 40:8

I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.”

**
Romans 7

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.* 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

**Romans verses to suggest lawlessness is not going help . Its been refuted many times over… I would like to see you show me the rest of the gospels of the NT that would suggest we dont have to obey Gods commandments or that commandment keeping is not essential to ones Faith or judgement.

The bible has 2 basic principals for a christian to abide and live by.

Faith and Gods commandments. That is what the whole word of God is about. That is what a true Christian followes and obeys

Jan**

 

[sara888]

Where does he mention the transfer happening at baptism?

Sounds like you are making a case for full immersion being necessary.

So what about the man on the cross next to Jesus?

You are over generalizing. For every religous group, there are the hard core and the general majority. I can also generalize the everyday catholic who goes through the rituals but does not mean it. Commit sin Monday-Saturday, confess sunday, take breads, commit sin Monday-Saturday, confess Sunday, take bread. But that would be attacking people, not the real issue

Not everyone uses the sinners prayer approach as you stated. I agree that there is a danger in the sinner’s prayer approach. A man cheats on his wife, and the wife is willing to forgive him, she would not have to walk him through an apology, if he was truely sorry, he would know how to apologize. As such, a repentful heart towards God should come from the heart, and not recited to him.

But attacking an over generalized approach goes off the topic. That is the easiest think to do.
John 10

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”*

Does a shepard disown his sheep one day, then accept him the next, then disowns him again. Jesus says that no one can snatch His sheep away. If one falls out of a state of grace, then you are implying that someone can take away Jesus’ sheep, and therefore calling Jesus a liar.

Does your parent say to you today, you are my son/daughter, then the next day say you are not my child today, go do these things, and you can become my child again.

The basic tenets of doctrine for Born Again and OSAS are pretty much the same… Faith, irresistilbe grace. and lawlessness.

Faith, yet you fail to define real faith in Christ… yet preach irresistible grace which suggest once one believes he becomes a robot and cannot fall from grace or disobey the commandments, then go on to also suggest commandments are essential to faith yet not important to judgement… who would buy this.???

The about raps it up. You can put your spin on it anyway you like.

 

[sara888]

**The basic tenets of doctrine for Born Again and OSAS are pretty much the same… Faith, irresistilbe grace. and lawlessness.

Faith, yet you fail to define real faith in Christ… yet preach irresistible grace which suggest once one believes he becomes a robot and cannot fall from grace or disobey the commandments, then go on to also suggest commandments are essential to faith yet not important to judgement… who would buy this.???

The about raps it up. You can put your spin on it anyway you like**

 

[kim3260]

A couple of years ago, a fundamentalist approached me and said, “Are you born again?”

I said, “Of course I am.”

She said, “I’m so glad to hear that, when were you born again?”

I said, “When I was baptised as an infant”.

She stood there mouth wide open aghast.

Thank you, this I can use this. (from a Catholic in the Bible Belt)

 

[rbarcia]

**The basic tenets of doctrine for Born Again and OSAS are pretty much the same… Faith, irresistilbe grace. and lawlessness.

**

I only believe in the first one. Faith.

Faith, yet you fail to define real faith in Christ… yet preach irresistible grace which suggest once one believes he becomes a robot and cannot fall from grace or disobey the commandments, then go on to also suggest commandments are essential to faith yet not important to judgement… who would buy this.???

Where have I preached irresistilbe grace? And where do I preach lawlessness. You are being judgemental.

All you are doing is attacking the hypocrites of the Protestant faith. I would do the same if I attacked hypocrites of the roman catholic faith. (I am sure they exist)

You are accusing me of preaching sin, without any proof. No where do I condone sinning . You are just taking the easy way out and pointing fingers, ignoring what I said.

That is ok.

 

[mikemck]

The basic tenets of doctrine for Born Again and OSAS are pretty much the same… Faith, irresistilbe grace. and lawlessness.

Actually, OSAS says nothing at all about “irresistable grace” or “lawlessness”.

 

[MariaG]

The basic tenets of doctrine for Born Again and OSAS are pretty much the same… Faith, irresistilbe grace. and lawlessness.

Faith, yet you fail to define real faith in Christ… yet preach irresistible grace which suggest once one believes he becomes a robot and cannot fall from grace or disobey the commandments, then go on to also suggest commandments are essential to faith yet not important to judgement… who would buy this.???

The about raps it up. You can put your spin on it anyway you like

Nope, sorry Sara. You are not right on this. As one who used to define herself as a born again (Actually I still do but I think you know what I mean), there definitely is a difference between the OSAS and born again.

For PRACTICAL purposes, there is little difference, IF one is born again, one will not go out and sin. One was never born again to begin with or one is “back slidden”. But there are great theological differences between born again and OSAS. As pointed out previously, irressistible grace is not part of the “born again” theology.

Respectfully Sara, this reminds me of those who come and tell me that Catholics worship Mary, I say no, we don’t and they continue to insist they know what the Catholic Church teaches better than I do, a fairly knowledgable practicing Catholic Christian. I pray this was not your intent, but this certainly how it “sounds” especially since you are not correct about how you then go on to define one’s faith.

That one can “never fall from grace” has never been a theological concept of the “born again” crowd. That is why they use the term “back slidden Christian”. A frequent phrase of my former fundamental pastor was “if you are not careful, a person can find themselves backslidden all the way to Hell.” Clearly, this does not reflect a believe that one can never fall from grace.

God Bless,
Maria